Where are the real populists (Tea partiers) now?
- Thread starter diesel96
- Start date
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
I don't know but when I look at the numbers I see an increase in the severity of attacks when we only maintained a defensive posture. As we have ramped up a more offensive posture it just seems like the severity of attacks on our soil and against out interests have decreased and I am not trying to make light of those that have lost loved ones by saying this.
diesel96
Well-Known Member
This is the Reader's Digest watered down version, so here goes. Many moons ago, Our Gov't performs a coup in Iran, puts the Shah in power. People revolt against the Shah. During the revolution the US Gov't was actively trying to control the revolution for their own interests. Eventually, the Iranians took over the embassy. Our Gov't has admited to all this by the way. Our Gov't supported nut-job religious guys from Egypt and Saudi Arabia against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Then we prop up Saddam Hussein to be our next strong man. Arm him to attack Iran. Hundred of thousands die on both sides. He fails and decides to go after Kuwait. So we send our army into Saudi Arabia to go fight an liberate Kuwait. However, we left our army their. Bin laden says that he went to war with us because we left our troops in Saudi Arabia and because our sanctions killed Iraqis children. So yeah, we're not exactly saints here bro. I don't know what view you would call that ? Populist ?, Blame America ?. Just a Historical View ......Enjoy the BBQ's, the Ragin'Cajun food and the vino in the Great White Winterland. This thread's turning into a Guy Fieri (Food Network) cook-off....I will be using my brand new iron skillet an attempting to sear tuna and blacken some Mahi-Mahi, outside of course (I hear it gets a little smokey) but I won't mind, SOFLA this weekend, 65 degrees breezy with clear skies....And keep your safety on that Sig (if it has one)....
PS...Did anyone hear it snowed in Florida yesterday....
wkmac
Well-Known Member
D,
Al Gore mentioned the snow in Florida!
OK, now that I got my jollies not that North Florida hasn't gotten snow before and remember in the 80's (or the 70's?) when they had snow flurries in the Bahama's? Now to my point.
Just a few additional points to add to your nicely done Reader's Digest review of Middle East geo-politics and US meddling. Arab hostility is often seen from a present day POV although in some circles, the furthest they might go back to point at treachery is the so-called Arab support of the Axis powers in WW1 Pt 2 otherwise known as WW2. The one's who point out Arab treachery seem to never mention the earlier treachery of the British in relationship to the promises of the Sykes-Picot agreement in which the arab tribesmen were promised full independence if they joined the Allied powers in WW1 to overthrow the then Ottoman Empire who were allied with Germany at the time. The Arab fulfilled his promise only to watch the British violate that promise only because of a new agreement called the Balfour Declaration that among other things promised a homeland in Palestine to a then emerging Zionist movement in Europe, specifically England. I see a bad moon rising, thank you CCR!
As a result of these factors, a growing pan-islamic movement began to emerge with the creation of the Muslim Brotherhood in the late 1920's in Egypt. If one would do a casual study of the the Brotherhood, one would find the roots of all radical movements in the Middle East up to even our day (they still exist) and one could clearly see that if promises made were promises kept, except for a few minor conflicts between Shia and Sunni, the middle east as we know it might be as quite and boring as the northwest territories of Canada. But the facts of history get in the way of men with motive so the facts are ignored, overlooked, shouted down and thus we are where we are.
Even Iraq itself was as much a fiction created by the US and it's interventions as Iran was. Even more of interest is the fact that the event that led to the first Gulf War was as much a US creation as it was a reaction by the US. Nor should we forget that the Iraqi people suffered horribly under Saddam and yet they remember well who helped to arm him and keep him in power so I can understand some of the hostility shown towards our soldiers put there. Sad part is, they (the regular soldier) and the average folk of Iraq become the meat in a sandwich that neither of them created nor in the end will they be able to eat and enjoy. It is others far removed from the death and destruction who will consume that meal as it was their intent all along.
Houston, we have a problem.
What is the nature of this problem?
To use a CIA term, it's called Blowback!
Just thought I'd add a couple of items for flavor to an already good review.
Al Gore mentioned the snow in Florida!
OK, now that I got my jollies not that North Florida hasn't gotten snow before and remember in the 80's (or the 70's?) when they had snow flurries in the Bahama's? Now to my point.
Just a few additional points to add to your nicely done Reader's Digest review of Middle East geo-politics and US meddling. Arab hostility is often seen from a present day POV although in some circles, the furthest they might go back to point at treachery is the so-called Arab support of the Axis powers in WW1 Pt 2 otherwise known as WW2. The one's who point out Arab treachery seem to never mention the earlier treachery of the British in relationship to the promises of the Sykes-Picot agreement in which the arab tribesmen were promised full independence if they joined the Allied powers in WW1 to overthrow the then Ottoman Empire who were allied with Germany at the time. The Arab fulfilled his promise only to watch the British violate that promise only because of a new agreement called the Balfour Declaration that among other things promised a homeland in Palestine to a then emerging Zionist movement in Europe, specifically England. I see a bad moon rising, thank you CCR!
As a result of these factors, a growing pan-islamic movement began to emerge with the creation of the Muslim Brotherhood in the late 1920's in Egypt. If one would do a casual study of the the Brotherhood, one would find the roots of all radical movements in the Middle East up to even our day (they still exist) and one could clearly see that if promises made were promises kept, except for a few minor conflicts between Shia and Sunni, the middle east as we know it might be as quite and boring as the northwest territories of Canada. But the facts of history get in the way of men with motive so the facts are ignored, overlooked, shouted down and thus we are where we are.
Even Iraq itself was as much a fiction created by the US and it's interventions as Iran was. Even more of interest is the fact that the event that led to the first Gulf War was as much a US creation as it was a reaction by the US. Nor should we forget that the Iraqi people suffered horribly under Saddam and yet they remember well who helped to arm him and keep him in power so I can understand some of the hostility shown towards our soldiers put there. Sad part is, they (the regular soldier) and the average folk of Iraq become the meat in a sandwich that neither of them created nor in the end will they be able to eat and enjoy. It is others far removed from the death and destruction who will consume that meal as it was their intent all along.
Houston, we have a problem.
What is the nature of this problem?
To use a CIA term, it's called Blowback!
Just thought I'd add a couple of items for flavor to an already good review.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
BTW: We saber rattle at the evil Persians and wax on about their extreme religious ideals and yet we sit silent on our hands at the stupid actions of "our friends."
Valentine's day a christian religious holiday? Well man made of course. Poor Cupid must be feeling really insulted these days but then practically all of what is christianity is borrowed from somebody else to begin with and anyway, does that really matter or make a difference anymore? Nope, just as long as you continue to accept the Noble Lie!
Valentine's day a christian religious holiday? Well man made of course. Poor Cupid must be feeling really insulted these days but then practically all of what is christianity is borrowed from somebody else to begin with and anyway, does that really matter or make a difference anymore? Nope, just as long as you continue to accept the Noble Lie!
tieguy
Banned
You're right . We would be too busy chanting praises to our leader in german while goose stepping down main street. A pure non-interventionist non agressor position would have earned our being colonized by the germans and Japanese.
Your next argument may be that we responded to a direct attack and responded in defense.
My next argument might then be that the best defense is a good offense.
wkmac I can't believe you of all people cosigned in support of Diesels rantings in this area. I really thought you were smarter then that. But then the only difference between a libertarian and a liberal is about 4 letters.
Our founding fathers wrote a constitution based on their vision and their perspective at that time. We are not obligated to rigidly abide by archaic doctrine simply because it was written by the founding fathers.
Liberals love to blame our support of Israel as a reason we are a terrorist target. Liberals then have the audacity to preach the vision of the founding fathers.
the jews lost 4 million people at the hands of the germans. We then helped them form their own country and helped them be able to defend theirselves so they would never have to worry about being the victims of genocide. This right to self determination and this right defend oneself from an agressor power is exactly what the founding fathers believed in.
diesel if you're going to go on an anti semitic rant at least try to leave our founding fathers out of your delusions.
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tourists24
Well-Known Member
from a christianity standpoint, this is not being done by the point of a sword WK. Christians would like for you to be christian also, but you are free not to be. You can also celebrate these holiday times however you wish, but christians are still christians during these days and celebrate them as such. Yes they have their own slants to them, but santa is still santa and is the main reason most of us in America treat Christmas day (or is that the "winter holiday" now?)BTW: We saber rattle at the evil Persians and wax on about their extreme religious ideals and yet we sit silent on our hands at the stupid actions of "our friends."
Valentine's day a christian religious holiday? Well man made of course. Poor Cupid must be feeling really insulted these days but then practically all of what is christianity is borrowed from somebody else to begin with and anyway, does that really matter or make a difference anymore? Nope, just as long as you continue to accept the Noble Lie!
You always attempt to show just how mythical christianity is, but I would like to hear your opinion on how it all began anyway. How did man even get here to begin with in order to invent such myths? Just as always, I dont mean this to be an inflamatory exchange; it just peaks my curiosity
If you go here you will get an explanation...
http://www.browncafe.com/forum/f12/forum-question-there-anyway-stop-bunching-up-305914/
Everybody seems to have forgotten about the Barbary Pirates. The states of Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli used the Koran as an excuse to attack American merchant ships after our American Revolution. Before our ships were safe by flying the British flag before the Revolution and the French flag during it. Our young government actually tried to pay tribute in 1784 to keep this from happening, with John Adams and Thomas Jefferson acting as ambassadors. The amount was more than we could pay, so this lead to several battles. Our new Navy and Marine Corps saw its first actions fought there. So it sounds to me that we were attacked first.................
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I think Obama already apologized for that....
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tieguy
Banned
ferret is British slang for a cigarette....nevertheless I changed it in the quote as well...smokin...
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
I didn't forget I was just planning on going back just a little at a time. I found it interesting that people on here would excuse the Muslims so easily but when there were all those threads on here about those fictional US war crimes not one of them blamed the Muslims for that. And so it goes......
wkmac
Well-Known Member
If you go here you will get an explanation...
http://www.browncafe.com/forum/f12/forum-question-there-anyway-stop-bunching-up-305914/
Thanks Tony.
No Scratch, the Barbary coast pirates are not forgotten at all. Fact is, Jefferson violated the first principle of Laissez-faire economics by using State power to the ultimate benefit of private business interests. The initial start of the whole conflict really goes back to the European powers and the Ottoman empires and until our winning independence, our ocean commerce lay under the protection of the French navy. Once we gained independence, it now fell to us and in 1784' Congress allocated monies for tribute to be paid to the Barbary pirates to insure safe passage, a form of taxation if you think about it.
John Adams and Thomas Jefferson were instructed to seek a treaty with the barbary pirates but ultimately at that point none were found and the barbary pirates continues to accost our merchant/commerce shipping. Jefferson as President decided to engage in global intervention on behalf of business interests, the true motive buried beneath the current problem of captive naval ships and crews and the rest is history as one might say. It was obvious then that the current business model was unsustainable without gov't intervention and support so Hamilton wasn't the only bad guy to true free markets back in the day!
Tourist,
To zero in to the point, no I don't believe in the bible creation story. This story IMO is mostly borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh (Tablet 11 for example) of Sumerian origin and was used as a basis for creating a specific national identity (what became Israelites/Jews) and also a story to pry these people who themselves came out of Sumer (Ur, Abram's home was there) away from an old identity and into a new.
Look at it from a modern context where Christianity has gone in and taken an old long established custom, Valentine's Day or even Christmas for that matter in northern Europe where various pre-christian rites were incorporated and christianized to move the local populace away from the old and into the new. Some things never change I guess.
Do I believe in some poof, bang and the whole thing began just by pure chance? I'll let you decide.
One order of physics that I believe is that you can't get something from nothing so I can accept the Big Bang for example on the premise that something caused it. Is it not interesting that you had nothing and then Boom, "let there be light!" Now what was the cause is the even larger question and yes science like religion can rely as much on faith as anything else. Big Bang "THEORY" for example but then you had to overcome the something form nothing law and then Big Bang became Big Expansion and Big Contraction to over come that. Again, all just theory. They use that word called theory but we are human and it's easy for us to drop the theory part and run as though it were absolute fact. So there in lay the conflict origin of science and religion. Some similarity to story but the source of conclusion differed and more important for one to win meant power and influence and for the other meant loss of power and influence. Ah, the real heart of the matter.
Nature is a complex entity all the way down to the actual make up of atoms. Life at the atomic level IMO shows some order of design not something that happened IMO by meer chance. Can I prove that? Nope but it works for me and that's good enough. As life itself breaks down in de-composing it doesn't ever completely go out of total existence. We may not see it as it was but down to the atomic level, that very energy still exists, it always has existed and always will. WOW! What does that say? Good question, I don't have the answer either and science is still looking for it. Religion has it's proposal obviously but like the theories of science none are yet actually provable as much as we (me too) would like it to be just so we finally have the answer. "It's the divine word of God" may work to resolve or settle for some but for me it's just not the case.
There in fact may be (there are) some interesting lessons contained within a number of creation stories, even some possible fact on one level or another but do I take them completely and wholely literal? No. For all it's good values, the bible is still a man created document at the end of the day and all claims within it IMO should be taken with some measure of salt. Doesn't mean all of it is wrong or bad but it's not the perfect word of God either IMO. And on the creation story, which one is the actual story, Genesis 1 or Genesis 2? And which god is God? Elohim or Yahweh? Yahweh is singular but Elohim is/can be plural and comes from the root EL which was a name of the local god of the area where Abram settled. Who really was El Shaddai for example? Shaddai sounds more like an adjective than a proper name to me. Being an epithet being my point. Yahweh (the start of monotheism in jewish/christian lore) is said by some to have come from the Kenites by way of Moses father-n-law Jethro so again, 2 creations, 2 gods, which one's which?
It works for some people to be able to explain what god is or rather explain who created all of this. It also helps and gives comfort to know that this higher being somehow still controls all of nature, manifests his will when needed and therefore we can call upon him/her or whatever in certain times to obtain favor in his adminstration of his will. No arguement that this is a great comfort and in and of itself I'm cool with anyone believing in such. I can appreciate it's value. There is a lot of very good, even excellent codes of conduct and life's lessons to learn in many of the various religious beliefs across the entire planet. I happen to believe the moral codes of shall not steal, murder, lie, covet, desire are excellent codes of conduct and are provable using logic and reason. At least it does for me and these basic concepts do in fact transcend cross religious lines.
Want to see heaven? Find a place where people choose (and they can, it's always has been a choice you can choose) to follow those moral codes and I'll show you heaven or that Kingdom of God Jesus and others always talked about. I'll also show you a truly free society that has no gov't because one is not needed. Show me a preacher who preaches such ideas in a truly voluntary world concept and I'll show you a preacher with an empty church. Now what does that sadly say about us?
and 
However, the moment one starts to abuse (even grossly violate) these beliefs and set about to modify or make them into something they never were to begin with, it's time to start pulling the plug. The moment certain folks for certain ends begin to manipulate these beliefs and it effects the decision processes of a larger majority of people to ultimate negative ends, it's time to not be silent! Various elements used religion and the church towards certain self interested ends and a period of enlightment and protest resulted. The same is/has happened again, the cyclical nature of man's history, and like the enlightenment of 300 years ago or the enlightenment that began with a certain John the Baptist against the State/Religion alliance of his day, remember what happened to John's cousin and ultimately his cousin's friends too when they went up against the State/Religious alliance who used the Noble Lie as well? So too are we in similar times now if you want to view if from that perspective.
How we initially got here is like trying to figure out a way to pop every kernel of corn while not burning what's already popped. Good luck. But what matters the most is what we do now and while we're here. Hope that answers the question(s) and they were good questions so no offense taken in your asking. No offense meant in the reply.
diesel96
Well-Known Member
You're right . We would be too busy chanting praises to our leader in german while goose stepping down main street. A pure non-interventionist non agressor position would have earned our being colonized by the germans and Japanese.
Your next argument may be that we responded to a direct attack and responded in defense.
My next argument might then be that the best defense is a good offense.
Grasping straws equating the Pearl Harbor attack of our borders, and the Nazi Regime's intent of World Domination to a Terrorist cell from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Since you bring up your hypothetical post-WWII scenario name one conflict, or soverign nation since then, that threatens our freedom, our borders.....not including the importation of rice, Hyundai's, Kia's, sneakers and Tv's....
Now that both sides are akin to nukes, and being that your all gung-ho for our Gov't to stop the spread of Communism on the other side of the world, sowing-reaping-chasing-killing Terrorist (an infinite cycle), displacing Dictators around the world, and rebuilding countries...is your passion, and you have no problem with our country going broke doing it, just like the Ruskies of the Cold War. Results are felt domestically and our own citizens are punished and neglected. That maybe ok with Mr and Mrs Superficial Stars and Stripes of the world, but many others and myself are more inclined for the preservation of our great country. We may not have to be liked by our enemies, but all feelings aside, they love to see us part with our money. Especially in their part of the world...Now that's a weak offense.
wkmac I can't believe you of all people cosigned in support of Diesels rantings in this area. I really thought you were smarter then that. But then the only difference between a libertarian and a liberal is about 4 letters.
http://reason.com/archives/2008/10/28/the-rove-realignment
Ewww... stinky!
The Republican Party was, at one time, the refuge of Libertarians. That’s one of the reasons that I was a registered Republican years ago, even though I rarely vote for the
bags that the GOP nominates. However, the Bush years exposed the truth about the GOP: That the Republican mantra of “less government is better government” is nothing more than a marketing gimmick. Libertarians felt, and feel, alienated by the party that approved of spying on Americans, spending trillions on a war of personal choice, and a party that held on to power in 2004 by the skin of its teeth courtesy of a war on civil liberties, which played well with the God, Guns, and anti-Gays voters.
Our founding fathers wrote a constitution based on their vision and their perspective at that time. We are not obligated to rigidly abide by archaic doctrine simply because it was written by the founding fathers.
Funny how you come to that conclusion when it doesn't fit your personal beliefs, but you sure like to dangle it out there when it comes to preserving Conservative issues....lol
Liberals love to blame our support of Israel as a reason we are a terrorist target. Liberals then have the audacity to preach the vision of the founding fathers.
the jews lost 4 million people at the hands of the germans. We then helped them form their own country and helped them be able to defend theirselves so they would never have to worry about being the victims of genocide. This right to self determination and this right defend oneself from an agressor power is exactly what the founding fathers believed in.
Please, we can't even get a President elected in this country if he doesn't pass the AIPAC sensitivity test....Anyhow, Israel is a great ally and we made them more than ample capable of DEFENDING it's borders. The troubling part is and depending what Israeli regime you ask within it's borders, some want to start WWIII with Happy Trigger Fingers on the button, dragging their big brother (US) in on it... Besides, most Americans feel Israel ought to "cool it" with their illegal expansion and we've told them nicely. Comes a time we shouldn't be polite anymore, but who has the balls, especially close to election season...Is that what Conservatives perfer, foriegn influence on our elected officials....Seems like your friends don't mind, they were quiet with the SCOTUS decision allowing unlimited Corperate-n-foriegn entities to buy our Politicians from here on out... ....
diesel if you're going to go on an anti semitic rant at least try to leave our founding fathers out of your delusions.
Sorry, I don't indulge in anti-semitic rants, just anti-political rants........
Tie, this Glen Beck-ish approach to de-Americanize BC posters who points out historical facts revels with old-school McCarthy-ism type mentality to win over those incapable of imagining their country in a bad light. Unfortunately, this pyscology only works with deep rooted far right Republicans of the GOP persuassion embedded in the "Sarah Palin" targeted communities of the South and Bible Belt small towns of America’s heartland. Every country has it's share of far-right, bat-*****-crazy, nationalist, statist, whining about “traditional values” seasoned with a pinch of bigotry. As the GOP continues to shed its moderates to expose the soul of the party, it will wind up representing a small segment of the United States. Given the fact that whack-jobs breed like flies and the educational system in some of these states is geared toward creating faith-based Wal-Mart greeters, not putting much emphasis on critical thinking to fact-check all the lies and mis-information spewing from the GOP political machine. Whew, now I feel better...Now that's a rant ! Don't you think Tie...lol
Scratch, Piracy along the Barbary Coast was a practise victimizing and extorting most European vessels since the Crusades, and contracted Privateers and mercenaries were employeed by the Coastal Govt's. Blaming the Koran IYO for the practise of piracy sounds good for this thread, however, I may not be a religious expert, but I don't think the Koran has passages on extortion. I'm more inclined to think this rudimentary business was an intrickle part of North Africa's GDP and very profitable for the priates.
D,
Al Gore mentioned the snow in Florida!
OK, now that I got my jollies not that North Florida hasn't gotten snow before and remember in the 80's (or the 70's?) when they had snow flurries in the Bahama's? Now to my point.
l:
Al Gore created the internet and made it snow in Fla....lol
Although I love all the armchair weatherman quarterbacks saying look at all the snow, how could their possibly be Global-Warming...That's where Climate change rears it's ugly head...
It snowed down here in Jan. 1976...While taking a Freshman make-up exam, teacher had us drop our #2 pencils and look outside....
Anyway, nice expansion on my watered down Reader's Digest version, to bad it doesn't get ackowledged or challenged.
