WOW! Watch Fox News' Shepard Smith

[tieguy]

I have to say I was greatly dissapointed to hear the torture that took place was so mild. I would have thought we would have come up with something a lot more severe for people who brainwash others into acts of killing women and children. Thats the problem with this country we try to slap terrorists with our lily white leather gloves while they are raping and killing our familys. No wonder terrorist don't fear us.

we should send our troops out in pink shorts with umbrellas slung across thier shoulders to match the current military mindset.

 

[ajblakejr]

Thats the problem with this country we try to slap terrorists with our lily white leather gloves while they are raping and killing our familys. No wonder terrorist don't fear us.

we should send our troops out in pink shorts with umbrellas slung across thier shoulders to match the current military mindset.

This morning, I assisted WWII Vets boarding an airplane to visit their memorial in DC. Current enlisted soldiers also assisted these men and women.

We listened to first hand stories of Pearl Harbor, Normandy, etc. The current troops eagerly listened and slung their heads low after a Sgt. commented on his AK - 'fashion accessory' or the useless tool he was required to carry in combat.

An old timer chimed in and recognized the pain in the Sgt's heart - "Son," he said, "you have CNN and all that other fancy stuff following you around tying your hands. We had Ernie taking pictures." (quoting what I recalled)

The conversation changed to the media.

I have no standing with these brave men and my opinion was not required to move the conversation forward.

Tieguy's words mirrored the conversation I listened to this morning.

Our soldiers want to be soldiers. War is not pretty but you better becareful because someone is watching your every move.

 

[wkmac]

Jones, your Orwell post started me thinking about wkmac's thread (Interesting Thoughts To Ponder on this Most Special of Days!) were I took umbrage at what I viewed as a slight at Catholicism in particular, but more importantly, Western civilization in general.

In Orwell's statement about nationalism, I think one can find what might be the fatal flaw of our civilization. It is not our culture, per se, but our actions that suggest we believe that no one is entitled to it but ourselves.

Our heritage of liberal democracy, human rights, and the rule of law are not fundamental flaws but universal strengths. The problem is, we frequently act as if these concepts really only apply to ourselves. Hence, we find no problems in exploiting another non Western country's labor and environment in ways we find totally unacceptable for ourselves.

Our culture will continue to be the world's scapegoat until we address this reality.

Good points Jim. Something I've given thought to over time and that is, what is property and what is self determination? Both questions center IMO on the ideal made famous by John Locke in that with all men, "no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions." The Virginia Declaration of Rights written by George Mason and adopted in June of 1776' will have a familar tone to be made infamous less than a month later by one Thomas Jefferson.

That all men are by nature equally free and independent, and have certain inherent rights, of which, when they enter into a state of society, they cannot, by any compact, deprive or divest their posterity; namely, the enjoyment of life and liberty, with the means of acquiring and possessing property, and pursuing and obtaining happiness and safety.

It's sad on 2 fronts where I think we failed from these potential great beginnings.

1) To the point you made, we failed in the ideal of "All men" and that these ideals were not confined to a geographic border, a culture or under a national flag. They always applied to all men no matter their origins or station in life and if was a gift of God to be allowed the priviledge in his creation, to have the opportunity to show the world how such an ideal could work if men so choose. Goodness is a warming light that attracts good men and doesn't require a conquering force to spread!

2) That by violating these ideals time and time again as a society, sometimes innocently in not understanding the consequences of their violation, that so many of the vast areas of troubles that face us, have their root cause in ignoring the wisdom of Locke and Mason.

jmo

 

[wkmac]

You know, I wasn't going to inject myself into your cheerleading party for torture but then I ran across something that just might force a little bit of a rethink on the part of you empire lovers.

Shepard Smith pointed out rightly that "This is America" and with that is an ideal of a concept of no cruel and unusual punishment as found in the 8th amendment. Now I know the Constitution applies to only Americans argument and I'll concede the merit but let's take Shep's other point and that is "I can go to any lawyer and get him to write me any opinion I want." Having a wife in the legal bidness and knowing myself how to study case law a bit (thanks to my lovely wife), his point was very true. If you can find a lawyer, you can bring a case or make a case on any matter of law you so wish. Others may have the ultimate say (courts) but for the time being you can as they say "get away with it!"

For the last 8 years, you guys championed the growing police state under republican rule because quite frankly, you feared islamic radicals more than the you feared the potential ramifications of gov't over reach. I didn't share in your belief but life is what life is. Now, you find the gov't you trusted not in place and a gov't "you might not be so inclined to trust" is in place. With that new gov't also comes the expansion of power you freely granted previously and so far for the most part, they've not choosen to surrender that power either even though at the time it was done, this same party condemned the expanding powers that Bush took.

Considering your POV's about the radical "flock of birds" these new characters tend to run with, how do you feel when you read this, and consider the radical nature of these "flocks of birds" in relation to what you feel may be lawful in life and what they feel contary that should be made unlawful?

Before anyone gives blanket powers to a collectivist body especially under the mythology of "it'll keep us safe" and I have no reason to fear or nothing to hide because "I'm not a criminal", "I'm not a terrorist" or "I'm not an islamic radical" consider the fact that what you do today in an open and lawful manner under someone else's control just might be deemed a crime and then you go from being an "I'm not" to an "I am!"


Well Obama said he was about change but I wonder how others will feel about this type of change!

LMAO!!!!!!

 

[wkmac]

Sometimes, you just have to keep your sense of humor and laugh at it!

I'm starting to miss him too!

 

[tieguy]

You know, I wasn't going to inject myself into your cheerleading party for torture but then I ran across something that just might force a little bit of a rethink on the part of you empire lovers.

Shepard Smith pointed out rightly that "This is America" and with that is an ideal of a concept of no cruel and unusual punishment as found in the 8th amendment. Now I know the Constitution applies to only Americans argument and I'll concede the merit but let's take Shep's other point and that is "I can go to any lawyer and get him to write me any opinion I want." Having a wife in the legal bidness and knowing myself how to study case law a bit (thanks to my lovely wife), his point was very true. If you can find a lawyer, you can bring a case or make a case on any matter of law you so wish. Others may have the ultimate say (courts) but for the time being you can as they say "get away with it!"

For the last 8 years, you guys championed the growing police state under republican rule because quite frankly, you feared islamic radicals more than the you feared the potential ramifications of gov't over reach. I didn't share in your belief but life is what life is. Now, you find the gov't you trusted not in place and a gov't "you might not be so inclined to trust" is in place. With that new gov't also comes the expansion of power you freely granted previously and so far for the most part, they've not choosen to surrender that power either even though at the time it was done, this same party condemned the expanding powers that Bush took.

Considering your POV's about the radical "flock of birds" these new characters tend to run with, how do you feel when you read this, and consider the radical nature of these "flocks of birds" in relation to what you feel may be lawful in life and what they feel contary that should be made unlawful?

Before anyone gives blanket powers to a collectivist body especially under the mythology of "it'll keep us safe" and I have no reason to fear or nothing to hide because "I'm not a criminal", "I'm not a terrorist" or "I'm not an islamic radical" consider the fact that what you do today in an open and lawful manner under someone else's control just might be deemed a crime and then you go from being an "I'm not" to an "I am!"


Well Obama said he was about change but I wonder how others will feel about this type of change!

LMAO!!!!!!

My outlook has not changed. there is nothing this country could do to those terrorists that I would find is unjustified.

the biggest change for me is we now have a president that bows to other leaders. Suddenly I don't feel so secure with a president that bows and begs people to like him.

I'll await your editorial the next time we have a terrorist attack on american soil. Tell me then how we justify the civil rights of those dead americans being violated.

 

[wkmac]

My outlook has not changed. there is nothing this country could do to those terrorists that I would find is unjustified.

the biggest change for me is we now have a president that bows to other leaders. Suddenly I don't feel so secure with a president that bows and begs people to like him.

I'll await your editorial the next time we have a terrorist attack on american soil. Tell me then how we justify the civil rights of those dead americans being violated.

Don't have to wait, CIA already has a single word to explain it all.

BLOWBACK!

We justify it by speaking out and stopping our own gov't from creating these monsters to begin with! But I don't even expect you to understand that when you are so griped by fear. You fear so many things from flamming fags to christian killing islamist that I'm surprised you have the courage to leave the house less the sky fall!

 

[tieguy]

Don't have to wait, CIA already has a single word to explain it all.

BLOWBACK!

We justify it by speaking out and stopping our own gov't from creating these monsters to begin with! But I don't even expect you to understand that when you are so griped by fear. You fear so many things from flamming fags to christian killing islamist that I'm surprised you have the courage to leave the house less the sky fall!

not really. About the only thing I fear is your mindset that basically supports making this country a victim to the every third world idiot that wants to gain a reputation by slapping us around.

I just honestly wish you would find some country and leader that enjoys getting bitch slapped by the rest of the world and move there and support them. Its clearly the mindset you support. perhaps you could create the country motto - instead of "in god we trust" you could come up with something creative like "we spread our legs for you"

You clearly don't support or appreciate a country that has the gonads to stand up for itself.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

I sorta get what wkmac is saying, as far as us creating problems down the road. Instead of the U.S. backing/supporting a band of people, that would eventually turn on us, maybe we could think it through, knowing what the final outcome would be, and closing our eyes and hoping that outcome never happens. There must be a way to battle an enemy, that makes itself believe it is doing what is right, just, and fair.

If you come up with this solution, maybe we'll be able to start thinking about the economy and other issues we face, as a nation.

 

[diesel96]

I'd volunteer to be waterboarded, for the charity of my choice.

Waterboarding isn't torture. I've had quite a few soldiers, several Sailors, and a Marine personally tell me that they've been waterboarded as part of their training. So, I guess its a training technique to keep our special ops troops from drowning from panic and torture at the same time? LOL! It's not a surprise that most of the people in this country that consider torture are leftists. These are the same people that thinks that raising your voice to a terrorist is torture. Wake up people! We've been doing these things for years. It's not like we are cutting fingers off or skinning these people alive.

Oh by the way.....terrorists don't fall under the Geneva Convention and therefore aren't protected by the same rules that apply to lawful prisoners of war.

You can waterboard me as a test if you like, after all if Im an enemy now I will know the exact amount of time I have to put up with it, and I KNOW I wont be killed. Wow thats scary. Its not like we are going to cut off their heads or their genitals.
I dont see it as torture, sorry. I see it as a last resort to get info that saves OUR lives. But it will no longer work, so.....................

It goes without saying how couragous some claim to being that your peers can stop the process at any time, and that when it was all over on your terms, you would be released into your happy daylight lives rather than returned to a darkened cell deprived of sleep.

In these controlled training exercises, brave men and women were introduced to the sorts of barbarism that they might expect to meet at the hands of a lawless foe who disregarded the Geneva Conventions. But it was something that Americans were being trained to resist, not to inflict.

I have to say I was greatly dissapointed to hear the torture that took place was so mild. I would have thought we would have come up with something a lot more severe for people who brainwash others into acts of killing women and children. Thats the problem with this country we try to slap terrorists with our lily white leather gloves while they are raping and killing our familys. No wonder terrorist don't fear us.

we should send our troops out in pink shorts with umbrellas slung across thier shoulders to match the current military mindset.

Tie, at least your in agreement that it's torture....that's a start. But it's an American mindset (not an episode of "24") that we don't cross that line and become like our enemy. BTW...nice little Mel Brooks slapstick adaptation of our military.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

It goes without saying how couragous some claim to being that your peers can stop the process at any time, and that when it was all over on your terms, you would be released into your happy daylight lives rather than returned to a darkened cell deprived of sleep.

In these controlled training exercises, brave men and women were introduced to the sorts of barbarism that they might expect to meet at the hands of a lawless foe who disregarded the Geneva Conventions. But it was something that Americans were being trained to resist, not to inflict.



[/COLOR]

Tie, at least your in agreement that it's torture....that's a start. But it's an American mindset (not an episode of "24") that we don't cross that line and become like our enemy. BTW...nice little Mel Brooks slapstick adaptation of our military.

Great point there, diesel, and very true. I also agree about the Mel Brooks part, that was quite funny.

 

[tieguy]

[/COLOR]

Tie, at least your in agreement that it's torture....that's a start. But it's an American mindset (not an episode of "24") that we don't cross that line and become like our enemy. BTW...nice little Mel Brooks slapstick adaptation of our military.

oh its definitely torture. and its mild compared to what our enemies would put us through. I have no problem giving them a little of thier own medicine.

 

[toonertoo]

It would be torture to make someone listen to Barry Manilow, or sleep in a room full of chirping crickets. I agree it is uncomfortable, but how would you get info to save lives if you dont do something??
I just think "what would I be willing to do to someone who had my child as a hostage" I would do whatever it took to try to save their life, no matter how unpleasant. To do nothing would be unforgivable. That is instinct, and what I feel.

 

[Catatonic]

It would be torture to make someone listen to Barry Manilow, or sleep in a room full of chirping crickets.

Interestingly enough, the UN has declared forced listening to Enya to be torture and consequently has been banned from elevators since people are held captive.
The torture never stops.

 

[moreluck]

Quote:
Originally Posted by toonertoo
It would be torture to make someone listen to Barry Manilow, or sleep in a room full of chirping crickets.


That's funny !! I have a life-size cut out of Barry Manilow in my garage. He's wearing a burgundy tuxedo in the picture. His arms are extended like he's belting out a big note. He was part of a Manilow Wine display at my grocery store and I asked them for it.

He welcomes me home everyday as I pull into my garage. My hubby justs chalks up my behavior to senior moments.

 

[Jones]

It would be torture to make someone listen to Barry Manilow, or sleep in a room full of chirping crickets. I agree it is uncomfortable, but how would you get info to save lives if you dont do something??
I just think "what would I be willing to do to someone who had my child as a hostage" I would do whatever it took to try to save their life, no matter how unpleasant. To do nothing would be unforgivable. That is instinct, and what I feel.

I'm not sure "uncomfortable" quite covers it:

During his first days in detention, senior al-Qaeda operative Khalid Sheik Mohammed was stripped of his clothes, beaten, given a forced enema and shackled with his arms chained above his head, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross. It was then, a Red Cross report says, that his American captors told him to prepare for "a hard time." Over the next 25 days, beginning on March 6, 2003, Mohammed was put through a routine in which he was deprived of sleep, doused with cold water and had his head repeatedly slammed into a plywood wall, according to the report. The interrogation also included days of extensive waterboarding, a technique that simulates drowning.

Were any lives saved because of this? No one knows. Was any information obtained that could not have been obtained through traditional methods? No one knows that either, because traditional methods were apparently never given a chance:

But whether harsh tactics were decisive in Mohammed's interrogation may never be conclusively known, in large part because the CIA appears not to have tried traditional tactics for much time, if at all. According to the agency's own accounting, Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times during his first four weeks in a CIA secret prison.

From the same article:

"The systematic, calculated infliction of this scale of prolonged torment is immoral, debasing the perpetrators and the captives," said Philip D. Zelikow, a political counselor to then-Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice who reviewed secret Bush administration reports about the program in 2005. "Second, forfeiting our high ground, the practices also alienate needed allies in the common fight, even allies within our own government. Third, the gains are dubious when the alternatives are searchingly compared. And then, after all, there is still the law."

Oh that's right, the Law. The Convention Against Torture, signed in 1988 by that noted bleeding heart liberal, Ronald Reagan which reads, in part:

Article 2

1. Each State Party shall take effective legislative, administrative, judicial or other measures to prevent acts of torture in any territory under its jurisdiction.
2. No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
3. An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.

Regarding any Americans who participated in comitting these acts of torture, the Convention is also pretty clear as to our responsibilities:

Article 4

1. Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. The same shall apply to an attempt to commit torture and to an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture.
2. Each State Party shall make these offences punishable by appropriate penalties which take into account their grave nature.

 

[toonertoo]

Ok, so what would you do? WWJD, what would Jones do? Doesnt sound too nice IF its all true, but I still would like to understand how else DO WE get INFO?

 

[Catatonic]

oh its definitely torture and its mild compared to what our enemies would put us through.

You're saying the French would do worse?

 

[Jones]

Ok, so what would you do? WWJD, what would Jones do? Doesnt sound too nice IF its all true, but I still would like to understand how else DO WE get INFO?

The old fashioned way?

Ali Soufan, a former FBI special agent who questioned Abu Zubaida between his capture in March 2002 and early June of that year, said the detainee gave up Padilla without any physical or psychological duress. He also said Abu Zubaida identified Mohammed as the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks "under traditional interrogation methods."
Padilla, a U.S. citizen, was sentenced in January 2008 to 17 years in prison after being convicted of conspiracy and providing material support for terrorism.

 

[tourists24]

The old fashioned way?

And when that doesnt work? then what?
If the Red Cross report you posted above is accurate, I dont agree some of the methods used (some I do), but it does bring an interesting point. What do you do next? Especially if you know a large terrorist attack is eminent.