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[toonertoo]

The old fashioned way?

I think all people generally have a conscience. I think it can be removed with training. Someone who is captured may still have an inkling of humanity, others may not. Of course we should try easy ways first. I read somewhere, I cant quote where, but that giving a detainee copies to read of a scuba magazine, made him sing like a bird. Thats cool. But my question remains, what next?

 

[Jones]

And when that doesnt work? then what?
If the Red Cross report you posted above is accurate, I dont agree some of the methods used (some I do), but it does bring an interesting point. What do you do next? Especially if you know a large terrorist attack is eminent.

When exactly have traditional methods not worked? Has there ever been an instance of a successful terrorist attack against the USA that we could have prevented by torturing somebody we had in custody? If so I'm not aware of it.
We're not talking about "what if" scenarios here, we're talking about what actually happened.
There is no evidence that by torturing these guys we were able to break up an imminent, credible terrorist attack using information that we could not have gotten otherwise.
There is no evidence that the information that we did obtain through torture could not have been obtained through traditional interrogation methods.
The only thing we know for sure is that we tortured them.

 

[tourists24]

When exactly have traditional methods not worked? Has there ever been an instance of a successful terrorist attack against the USA that we could have prevented by torturing somebody we had in custody? If so I'm not aware of it.
We're not talking about "what if" scenarios here, we're talking about what actually happened.
There is no evidence that by torturing these guys we were able to break up an imminent, credible terrorist attack using information that we could not have gotten otherwise.
There is no evidence that the information that we did obtain through torture could not have been obtained through traditional interrogation methods.
The only thing we know for sure is that we tortured them.

Since we cant even agree on what torture actually is, I think "what ifs" can be very relevant. Is it safe to assume that since you ask when traditional methods havent worked that you think that they always work?

We will never get the full stories on what happens behind those closed doors. There are "claims" that the methods used in this case did do good, but since only selected documents were released, we may not get that evidence one way or the other. You say we DO know that there was torture. Well then, punishment is in order. End of story.

You still didnt answer the "what if" though. What if regular ways dont work? What then? Where are the lines drawn? If there really was a plot on Los Angeles and someone holds vital info, where do you draw the line?

 

[Jones]

Since we cant even agree on what torture actually is, I think "what ifs" can be very relevant. Is it safe to assume that since you ask when traditional methods havent worked that you think that they always work?

You and I may disagree on what constitutes torture, but the treaties and conventions that the US is a signed party to are pretty clear. We would not have signed if we didn't agree with them. There is precedent in US law as well, as after WW2 one of the war crimes charges that we leveled against the Japanese was the use of waterboarding against American prisoners. In addition the State Department defines "submersion of the head in water" as torture, and the difference between that and waterboarding is simply semantics as they both constitute simulated drowning.

I only think "what if" scenarios are relevant if they are based in reality. The "24" scenario only occurs in Hollywood and it certainly was not the case with the guys we tortured because if it was you can bet we would have heard about it as a justification. In the real world you don't torture people because you know what they know, you torture them because you don't know what they know. And if they really don't know what you think they might know(which you have no way of knowing for sure), they'll make something up just to get you to stop.

As far whether or not traditional methods always work, I have seen no evidence to suggest that they don't. 9/11 itself could have been prevented by traditional police work if the right people had been paying attention to the right signs. The clues were all there, but nobody put them together.

We will never get the full stories on what happens behind those closed doors. There are "claims" that the methods used in this case did do good, but since only selected documents were released, we may not get that evidence one way or the other. You say we DO know that there was torture. Well then, punishment is in order. End of story.

You still didnt answer the "what if" though. What if regular ways dont work? What then? Where are the lines drawn? If there really was a plot on Los Angeles and someone holds vital info, where do you draw the line?

Like I said above, I have a hard time giving credibility to the "24" scenario. If we already know the target city and the approximate time of the attack, we're pretty much 90% of the way there. At that point I have faith that we have enough info and resources to foil the plot without torturing anyone.
Speaking strictly for myself, I could never torture another living thing, under any circumstances. 20 or maybe even 10 years ago I might have given you a different answer, but as I've gotten older I see the world differently. Probably just getting soft

 

[tieguy]

I'm not sure "uncomfortable" quite covers it:
Were any lives saved because of this? No one knows. Was any information obtained that could not have been obtained through traditional methods? No one knows that either, because traditional methods were apparently never given a chance:
From the same article:
Oh that's right, the Law. The Convention Against Torture, signed in 1988 by that noted bleeding heart liberal, Ronald Reagan which reads, in part:
Regarding any Americans who participated in comitting these acts of torture, the Convention is also pretty clear as to our responsibilities:

The law was a nice thought until 9/11. 9/11 happening after the world had 8 years of the lovable and likeable Bill Clinton in office. The world should have loved us and certainly had no reason to hate us after cute and cudly clinton got done. Yet 9.11 happened anyway. Go figure.

[jones says] During his first days in detention, senior al-Qaeda operative Khalid Sheik Mohammed was stripped of his clothes, beaten, given a forced enema and shackled with his arms chained above his head, according to the International Committee of the Red Cross. It was then, a Red Cross report says, that his American captors told him to prepare for "a hard time." Over the next 25 days, beginning on March 6, 2003, Mohammed was put through a routine in which he was deprived of sleep, doused with cold water and had his head repeatedly slammed into a plywood wall, according to the report. The interrogation also included days of extensive waterboarding, a technique that simulates drowning.

Jones I love it. can you get us the video of those bastards being tortured?

If not I can get you several of those bastards flying planes into the twin towers. How about some close ups of americans leaping to thier deaths off the twin towers. Keep the sanctimonious "we should be better then them" and lets have those nuts jump to thier deaths from a burning building. Get me some good microphones so I can hear thier skin sizzling as the flames lick thier bodies.

I'm not opposed to be a kinder and gentler country but once they kill a few of our innocents then I think our motto should change to "hell has no fury like an american scorned"

 

[Jones]

The law was a nice thought until 9/11. 9/11 happening after the world had 8 years of the lovable and likeable Bill Clinton in office. The world should have loved us and certainly had no reason to hate us after cute and cudly clinton got done. Yet 9.11 happened anyway. Go figure.

The Convention against Torture was signed by Reagan, not Clinton. Not that it makes a difference, it was the right thing to do no matter who signed it. 9/11 didn't happen because we failed to torture someone, it happened because we failed to pay attention.

Jones I love it. can you get us the video of those bastards being tortured?

If not I can get you several of those bastards flying planes into the twin towers. How about some close ups of americans leaping to thier deaths off the twin towers. Keep the sanctimonious "we should be better then them" and lets have those nuts jump to thier deaths from a burning building. Get me some good microphones so I can hear thier skin sizzling as the flames lick thier bodies.

I'm not opposed to be a kinder and gentler country but once they kill a few of our innocents then I think our motto should change to "hell has no fury like an american scorned"

I'll just say that I wouldn't vote for you, and I assume the reverse is true as well

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

I like what Neal Boortz said the other day. It was a good point. He stated that if it was ok for Navy SEALS to kill three Somali pirates to save one man then it should be ok to make a terrorist uncomfortable for a few minutes in order to save thousands of lives.

 

[moreluck]

Here, here !!

 

[Jones]

That's a false dichotomy, there's no evidence that torture was necessary to save even one life, much less thousands. Neil is right where he should be, far away from the actual decision making process.

 

[ajblakejr]

second thought...I deleted post. Yes, call me chicken !!!

 

[Cochise]

The opinion of an expert, who was actually there:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

That's a false dichotomy, there's no evidence that torture was necessary to save even one life, much less thousands. Neil is right where he should be, far away from the actual decision making process.

There is (evidence) somewhere I'm sure. If you search the web long enough. Most of what has happened over the years (many years....this goes back farther than people realize) has been classified and really should stay that way. But if the left wing loons are so eager to punish the right then maybe some of that classified stuff should be unclassified. We need to hear both sides of the story. I guarantee that some of it would be very sobering to those that want to vilify the previous administration. Maybe even enough to wake them up and and hopefully shut them up as well.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

The opinion of an expert, who was actually there:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/195089

People like that will destroy this country. What are we supposed to do to terrorist? Promise them milk and cookies if they cooperate?

 

[Cochise]

There is (evidence) somewhere I'm sure. If you search the web long enough. Most of what has happened over the years (many years....this goes back farther than people realize) has been classified and really should stay that way. But if the left wing loons are so eager to punish the right then maybe some of that classified stuff should be unclassified. We need to hear both sides of the story. I guarantee that some of it would be very sobering to those that want to vilify the previous administration. Maybe even enough to wake them up and and hopefully shut them up as well.

No there isn't, quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[Jones]

There is (evidence) somewhere I'm sure. If you search the web long enough. Most of what has happened over the years (many years....this goes back farther than people realize) has been classified and really should stay that way. But if the left wing loons are so eager to punish the right then maybe some of that classified stuff should be unclassified. We need to hear both sides of the story. I guarantee that some of it would be very sobering to those that want to vilify the previous administration. Maybe even enough to wake them up and and hopefully shut them up as well.

I agree that we need full, unequivocal transparency on this, but you're mistaken if you think that the torture debate is a left/right issue. There are plenty of principled conservatives who oppose torture, including republicans who served in the Bush administration and know a lot of the not yet released details about what happened. Shepard Smith is not alone by any stretch. In addition there are plenty of people on the left who believe torture is justified in certain situations. Alan Dershowitz, for instance.

 

[Cochise]

People like that will destroy this country. What are we supposed to do to terrorist? Promise them milk and cookies if they cooperate?

Actually, we've gotten better information doing that.

Read the history of the soldiers who played chess and ping pong with the German war criminals after WWII.

The old saying 'You catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar', seems to be based on fact, unlike the beliefs and fears of many here.

 

[UPS Lifer]

TRUST is the main issue here. As an American, we rely on Special Ops and the CIA, FBI, Homeland Security, etc. etc. to keep us safe. We need to allow them to do their job. They are the experts. They need to be able to apply interrogation techniques that are successful.

If they are successful getting the intel they need to protect you and keep you alive, than their technique was acceptable.

I am pretty sure that no one posting here is interviewing terrorist or has the responsibility to extract information from terrorists to keep America safe! If this is your job.... why are you posting here and not doing your job to keep us safe??? LOL!

I am enjoying this discussion. Unless you actually do the job of the CIA you have no business speaking like you are an authority on the subject!!!! Many of you think you have all the answers.

I wonder how you would handle the situation if all of America were depending on you to keep us safe? What if it were up to you to make sure that you got the intel needed to avoid the next big attack? How would you deal with these terrorist? Would you play chess with them? What if the next attack and the lives of Americans were on your shoulders?

I take pride in everything our country has done to keep you and I safe since 911. If there is another terrorist attack on our country and lives are lost we can thank the "Chosen One" and folks who think we should coddle our enemy.

My feelings go this far. We need to keep America safe at all cost; but those prisoners who are locked up, defenseless, and do not possess intel should be allowed their human dignity. Beating the human spirit down just because they are the enemy is unacceptable and against everything America stands for.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Actually, we've gotten better information doing that.

Read the history of the soldiers who played chess and ping pong with the German war criminals after WWII.

The old saying 'You catch more flies with honey, than with vinegar', seems to be based on fact, unlike the beliefs and fears of many here.

I'm so glad people like you aren't making important decisions for this country. I don't know what would be worse.....you trying to run our country or you attempting to have milk and cookies, a game of chess or ping pong, or an offering of honey with a group of Taliban men. You are welcome to try though. Let us know how that works out for you.

 

[stevetheupsguy]

I think that all techniques should be used. Milk, cookies, chess, flogging, and/or whatever it takes to keep THIS country from being attacked. You can't befriend someone that doesn't want friendship. JMHO, as simple as it may sound.

 

[tieguy]

That's a false dichotomy, there's no evidence that torture was necessary to save even one life, much less thousands. Neil is right where he should be, far away from the actual decision making process.

not sure we will reveal our intelligence gathering results enough to assess the quality of the information recieved via torture.

but it does seem like we have gotten some good info from someone. I wonder what the guy told us about Osama bin laden while he thought he was drowning. It might be why we are concentrating our efforts in remote areas of pakistan.

And we have been able to twart any further reoccurances of 9/11 when our intelligence gathering abilities were blamed prior to that attack. Just a thought.