$8.50 'till 2013? What are they thinking?

[gandydancer]

What I got out of reading the makeupsdeliver.com thing was after you pass your part time probation the pay was 10.50 an hour. To me this would seem fair. That is about what other part time jobs in my area pay to start with no experience.

Has this changed or does anyone know for sure?

TDU's $10.50 number was a mistake, presumably from looking at the skilled wage table rather than the base pay table. It's $9.50, a $0.50 increase over 2002, but now after 90 days worked (18+ weeks, depending on included holidays, which, btw, are now unpaid layoff days for new hires).

 

[gandydancer]

...correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand it the starting pay in 1985 was $8.00 an hour.

Actually the $8 rate goes back to 1980.

 

[gandydancer]

It continues to amaze me how people keep forgetting about the hourly cost to UPS for all those benefits you get.

$8.50/hr + $14.00/ hr benefits adds up to $22.50 /hr.

Nobody making $8.50 gets $14/hr in benefits. No medical, no holidays, etc. You've slept through all the discussion?

 

[gandydancer]

Hi KTB. Welcome to the Brown Cafe. First, I started in 1985 pt(preload) at $8.00 an hour. I know it has been a while since you posted this thread. I hope your still around to answer my post. Ok, how much do you make an hour as of now? Its been a while but when I worked pt I started at $8 and finshed I believe around $11 or $12 an hour. Full benefits and 4 wks paid time off after my first year,(2 wk vac, 1 wk sick, and 1 wk ph's and all holidays, example, July 4,labor day, etc etc) those must be factored into your hourly pay...

They factored into yours. They don't factor into his. You don't get this?

 

[gandydancer]

Look guys, crucify me if you want, but I believe that there is to much time being spent on parts of the contract that effect employees that don't even work at UPS yet, and not enough time on the parts that effect us that are here NOW.
A.K.A.----- $8.50 hr starting pay for part timers, no insurance for a year and 18 months for family.
These people do not work here yet!
If they choose to take a job for $8.50 starting pay with no insurance that is their business. If they don't like the pay or benifits, then they don't have to take the job. If they do take the job, that was their decision. Why should I feel bad about that, or waste my time fighting that battle? If they take the job and find out that they don't like the situation, then speck up and the rest of us will stand behind you. But fighting a battle for a ghost that doesn't exist yet is not in our best interest.

So you think I should take an (inflation-adjusted) pay cut out of solidarity with CS Teamsters I'll never meet but not worry about the guys I'll actually be working with over the next five years. Makes sense to me. Not.

 

[loaderdude]

If you find a part time job that allows you to own a house then take it by all means.

Contract negotiations always take care of those who are here. Those who have not been hired and have not joined the union do not attend meetings nor vote. Therefore the union always negotiates for those who are here. And they will negotiate the rights of the unborn away if it gives those who are presently working a better package. Thats why your starting wage has not gone up in so long. The money that could be spent on increasing the part time starting wage is instead funnelled elsewhere to serve the needs of those already here.

By this logic the union should negotiate an even better contract for current union members and give nothing to future employees at all! Let UPS pay them whatever they want, any benefits they feel like giving them. UPS would give us all a terrific deal knowing they will make tons more profit after current members quit or retire. The company thinks long term, the Teamsters need to also if they want to survive.

 

[sawdusttv]

So you think I should take an (inflation-adjusted) pay cut out of solidarity with CS Teamsters I'll never meet but not worry about the guys I'll actually be working with over the next five years. Makes sense to me. Not.

If you already work for UPS the new pay rate will not apply to you, only to new hires.

 

[olympicking]

By this logic the union should negotiate an even better contract for current union members and give nothing to future employees at all! Let UPS pay them whatever they want, any benefits they feel like giving them. UPS would give us all a terrific deal knowing they will make tons more profit after current members quit or retire. The company thinks long term, the Teamsters need to also if they want to survive.

Selfish, For UPS sucess, we need young quality worker to take over when we retire. All I see is good new workers quiting and the crappy workers staying because they can't get a better paying job.

 

[olympicking]

Look guys, crucify me if you want, but I believe that there is to much time being spent on parts of the contract that effect employees that don't even work at UPS yet, and not enough time on the parts that effect us that are here NOW.
A.K.A.----- $8.50 hr starting pay for part timers, no insurance for a year and 18 months for family.
These people do not work here yet!
If they choose to take a job for $8.50 starting pay with no insurance that is their business. If they don't like the pay or benifits, then they don't have to take the job. If they do take the job, that was their decision. Why should I feel bad about that, or waste my time fighting that battle? If they take the job and find out that they don't like the situation, then speck up and the rest of us will stand behind you. But fighting a battle for a ghost that doesn't exist yet is not in our best interest.

The only people UPS is going to be able to hire is illegals and convicted felons. I'm already afraid to take my wallet into the hub.

 

[livinitup]

So, much for Unity. Which is where the word UNION originates... Most people are selfish and self centered. If we were to all think about our union brothers and sisters both current and future we would be in a much better position to negotiate. It has been UPS's focus to divide and conquer. Eventually, the company's position to save costs no matter what, instead of looking to our future, will bite them in the arse.

I myself am a part-timer by choice. I have over 12 years in this company. When I was hired I was recruited at the local community college. UPS was a good company with good pay. And a possible future career. Even with the wait period of 5 years to become a driver, the pay was enough to keep most of us around until we got our shot at the big money.

I did give up 13 weeks of pay in the strike of 1997 so we could all benefit. There are many ways to compromise to address all the issues:



First off put an end to manditory overtime. This alone would create more jobs. If I could work 8.5 hours a day and not be forced to work beyond that the company wouldn't have to pay me $20+ per hour and $30+ after 5hrs. I would go full time and still be able to see my family. When you have to work 10+ hours a day you don't need that fifth day to pay your bills. So there is a lot of sick calls, especially on Mon & Fri.

To address the low part-time wages the new general wage increases should be applied to the starting rate each year until the end of the contract. That would mean in 2013 the starting rate would still be a meager $12.50 per hour.

To address the long progression, It makes no sense to most people to wait five years to become a driver only to wait 3 more year the make top rate. That is an eternity in the business world. If you enter a trade you are generally at top rate within 5 year max. This is a big contributor to the turnaround in the company. If we established a part-time top rate of $18 per hour with a three year progression I believe that this would be a system that would attract a better class of worker and would drastically reduce turnaround. This would mean some of the monies UPS uses to retrain countless numbers of people would now be going to loyal employees with the best interest of the company in mind.

In general when you pay better and offer the best benefits you have a larger pool of employees to draw from. Then you can weed out the bad apples and reep the fruits of your labor. That is why there is a probationary period to get rid of the bad apples.

This contract offer is a sell out by our union. It will only create a greater divide between the part-timers and the full-timers. And in the end it weakens our union with high turnover.

Trying to organize new jobs when you show a history of weakness will be difficult if not impossible. The problem with the UNION is they get more money by creating high turnover. As someone already stated the initiation fees are payed be every new union member if they stick around or not. If they truely wanted to organize new jobs they would wave all future initiation fees and fight for better contracts. Unfortunately, Our union officials are out of touch with the average worker, because they have been living off of our backs for most of their careers.

So send UPS and the fat cats at the Teamsters a message and VOTE NO.

 

[Mystakilla]

Some people cant afford to work only 8.5 hours per day, yes i know, thats their own fault for getting in that predicament, thankfully im not one of them, im comfortable with 40-50 hrs per week.

As far as the starting wage, thats just simply ridiculous to keep it the same. Everything has gone up significantly price wise, people who started 10 yrs ago was a decent wage for them but im sure still struggled, these days i just couldnt imagine making that kind of money AND doing the work THEY expect.

 

[tieguy]

Some people cant afford to work only 8.5 hours per day, yes i know, thats their own fault for getting in that predicament, thankfully im not one of them, im comfortable with 40-50 hrs per week.

As far as the starting wage, thats just simply ridiculous to keep it the same. Everything has gone up significantly price wise, people who started 10 yrs ago was a decent wage for them but im sure still struggled, these days i just couldnt imagine making that kind of money AND doing the work THEY expect.

you guys must be reading the TDU misinformation page and ignoring the actual contract language. 8:50 to start with a progression that bumps them up within 90 days. That progression will actually help keep them here and stabalize the workforce. Open your minds to what is actually in the contract and not what tdu tells you is there. They do post a copy of the contract offers on their web page. You would do better to read those postings then their skillfully crafted misinformation.

 

[sawdusttv]

So, much for Unity. Which is where the word UNION originates... Most people are selfish and self centered. If we were to all think about our union brothers and sisters both current and future we would be in a much better position to negotiate. It has been UPS's focus to divide and conquer. Eventually, the company's position to save costs no matter what, instead of looking to our future, will bite them in the arse.

I myself am a part-timer by choice. I have over 12 years in this company. When I was hired I was recruited at the local community college. UPS was a good company with good pay. And a possible future career. Even with the wait period of 5 years to become a driver, the pay was enough to keep most of us around until we got our shot at the big money.

I did give up 13 weeks of pay in the strike of 1997 so we could all benefit. There are many ways to compromise to address all the issues:



First off put an end to manditory overtime. This alone would create more jobs. If I could work 8.5 hours a day and not be forced to work beyond that the company wouldn't have to pay me $20+ per hour and $30+ after 5hrs. I would go full time and still be able to see my family. When you have to work 10+ hours a day you don't need that fifth day to pay your bills. So there is a lot of sick calls, especially on Mon & Fri.

To address the low part-time wages the new general wage increases should be applied to the starting rate each year until the end of the contract. That would mean in 2013 the starting rate would still be a meager $12.50 per hour.

To address the long progression, It makes no sense to most people to wait five years to become a driver only to wait 3 more year the make top rate. That is an eternity in the business world. If you enter a trade you are generally at top rate within 5 year max. This is a big contributor to the turnaround in the company. If we established a part-time top rate of $18 per hour with a three year progression I believe that this would be a system that would attract a better class of worker and would drastically reduce turnaround. This would mean some of the monies UPS uses to retrain countless numbers of people would now be going to loyal employees with the best interest of the company in mind.

In general when you pay better and offer the best benefits you have a larger pool of employees to draw from. Then you can weed out the bad apples and reep the fruits of your labor. That is why there is a probationary period to get rid of the bad apples.

This contract offer is a sell out by our union. It will only create a greater divide between the part-timers and the full-timers. And in the end it weakens our union with high turnover.

Trying to organize new jobs when you show a history of weakness will be difficult if not impossible. The problem with the UNION is they get more money by creating high turnover. As someone already stated the initiation fees are payed be every new union member if they stick around or not. If they truely wanted to organize new jobs they would wave all future initiation fees and fight for better contracts. Unfortunately, Our union officials are out of touch with the average worker, because they have been living off of our backs for most of their careers.

So send UPS and the fat cats at the Teamsters a message and VOTE NO.

If we can get better language in the contract for future employees without sacrificing present employees benefits, Great, so be it. But, we need to cover our own butts first or there will be no future for the employees to be. Sacrificing our own benefits and livelihood for someone that does not exist yet, is crazy. That is nothing short of a ploy that the company and union use in every contract negotiation. They say, I know that you had to give up some of your benefits, but look what we got for the people that don't work here yet!

BOY! You people are really gullible!

In my opinion, we must send them back to the table!!!!

 

[KTB]

Hi KTB. Welcome to the Brown Cafe. First, I started in 1985 pt(preload) at $8.00 an hour. I know it has been a while since you posted this thread. I hope your still around to answer my post.

I'm still around. I'd went into lurk mode, and then this is the first time I've been online since you posted this. I've had a busy schedule the past few days. Since this is a long post I'll break it into bite sized pieces in my response.

Ok, how much do you make an hour as of now? Its been a while but when I worked pt I started at $8 and finshed I believe around $11 or $12 an hour. Full benefits and 4 wks paid time off after my first year,(2 wk vac, 1 wk sick, and 1 wk ph's and all holidays, example, July 4,labor day, etc etc) those must be factored into your hourly pay. Many pt jobs do not offer any paid time off. I worked pt for 2.7 years before I went driving.

I make basically $18 an hour skilled hub rate. At some point since 1985 one week of that vacation has disappeared. I get 2 weeks with 1 option week (I take them as days instead). There's only 1 (might be 2, I always just sell them back) personal holiday now. I'll qualify for another week next year, but I doubt I'll ever see it since I'll most likely be full time by then. Not that I want to hang around in the hub just to take it.

Your $12 in 1988 (if I read that right) was $21.30 in todays dollars. You were making over $3 more than me on the hour after 3 years part time. I don't begrudge you that, but those are the facts. Let me point out that I'm one of the guys in my hub that a new hired kid thinks is rolling in money, and you'll see how bad the part time wages have gotten. The way the wage progression is set up those newer guys won't even be making the same amount as me in actual dollars after the same amount of time. Never mind inflation.

Ok, let me throw some numbers out to you. There are roughly 450,000 UPS employees. I have heard there are again roughly 3 ptimers to every 1 ftimer. That is about 300,000 pt ers. Most all of those have UPS insurance. It would be interesting to know the exact amount. I also would like to know how many of those pt ers are married? How many have children? I'll just take a conservative guess. Out of the 300,000 lets say there is a 100,000 spouses and children combined. That means that would be 400.000 pt workers/dependents to be covered by UPS. BTW, Pters, at least when I was a pt er I had better insurance than the ft er. Execellent coverage. Ok, 400,000 pt workers/dependents. The reason I mention this is because we all know health care has gone through the roof. Ask some of our ft retired employees that. Many are paying $400 or more a month in premiuns(only covers husband and wife/no children). In years past they used to pay nothing. KTB, how much do you pay in premiuns a month? Yes, I know there hasn't been a big hourly increase in 22 years, but how much has health care increased over the last 22 years - 200%, 300% or even 400%. KTB, Maybe that is where your hourly raise has gone to. To offset the high cost of health care.

Noted. The health care is the reason I got a job at UPS. I'm married now with a baby and the amount my family saves from if we were on, say, my wife's plan is incredible. I do factor that in. Part of the reason I made this thread is the fact that they are delaying benefits for new hires for a full year. Benefits are the only real carrot that UPS has to get people to walk in the door. If that is taken away I'm not sure why anyone would want to start at UPS.

Another point I want to add. UPS has never expected or planned on Pters to stay past 2 or 3 years. In my center maybe a third have gotten married had children and have no intentions of ever going ft. This has been a big burden. I have no problem with employees working 10 15 20 even 25 years pt, but you must take that into consideration the added health care cost to UPS. People are raising families on the pt insurance. One spouse works pt for the ins. and the other has their ft career job/own business some where else. To offset rising health care cost, I believe UPS made the changes to a 12 month(ind)/18 month(family) wait list for coverage. If your intentions are to go full time and the center you are presently working at has a long wait I would repectfully tell you to relocate to a center that has lesser waiting peroid. Relocation, isn't always fun. It takes you out of your comfort zone, but it could pay off in the long run. Reason being. Shorter time peroid to go ft.

On the first part... yeah we have several pters like that. I've had other things going on over the years, and have frequently made more money at my second job (not so much the past few years, but it was like that at first), so I can relate if they have some real money maker and want to just hang around for the benefits. I don't think their benefits are all that much more than the typical pter that's been there several years.

On the second part, I noticed you kept saying center. Most PTers are based in the hubs. The one I work at is a beast of a complex, and as I understand it it's only a mid sized hub. I've talked to some feeder drivers who've been to the Lexington hub, and from what I've heard you could fit several of mine into it. Since hubs require more employees to run seniority gets backed up. More PT employees and the same amount of drivers means longer waits to go full time. 22.3 jobs were designed to start fixing this problem, but as I'm sure you know there aren't going to be any more of those.

I can't help but notice that most of the people who are somewhat dismissive of part time concerns come from centers. Most guys who worked in a hub will at least give a "yeah, that sucks" regardless of how they intend to vote on the contract. It's a perspective UPSers based out of centers can't understand. UPS has been using that ignorance to keep wages down for a sizable number of it's employees for years now.

If that last bit about transfering work locations was directed at me that would be the stupidest thing I could do. As I've said a couple of times, I'm very high seniority at my hub, so I'm almost done with PT UPS. Since seniority doesn't transfer I'd have to wait a few years more than I already have. As for someone else doing it... it's easier said than done. UPS has one of the absolute worst transfer policies for non-management employees. I guess you could always move and get rehired at a new location, but that's a little extreme don't you think?

In closing, I have stated this before. UPS could have very well wanted to give higher raises for part timers, but as you know we have a pension and health care crisis on our hands. UPS has to predict the future(next 5 years). Its not always easy. Its just like trying to predict the stock market.

That's why you never have 5 year contracts. That's a whole other argument though.

I get the pension and health care crisis, really I do. However the wage issue has gotten kicked down the road as well and is at the same crisis point. I was talking to a friend of my sisters the other day. She just got a retail job at the fickin' mall making $8.90 an hour plus sales incentives. Yes, no benefits but UPS is a manual labor union job. It's supposed to pay more (and in fact always had until recently) because it's work. I guarantee you congress will raise the minimum wage above $8.50 before 2013. That makes me ill.

A $.50 increase in starting pay in a quarter of a century? And, oh yeah, before that the job actually paid more on the hour. Anyway, I've already said my piece a few times. No need to beat the dead horse some more.

 

[blue efficacy]

TDU's $10.50 number was a mistake, presumably from looking at the skilled wage table rather than the base pay table. It's $9.50, a $0.50 increase over 2002, but now after 90 days worked (18+ weeks, depending on included holidays, which, btw, are now unpaid layoff days for new hires).

In the 02 contract the progression raise kicked in at 90 calendar days. Has this changed in the 07 contract? It didn't look like it did to me.

 

[KTB]

you guys must be reading the TDU misinformation page and ignoring the actual contract language. 8:50 to start with a progression that bumps them up within 90 days. That progression will actually help keep them here and stabalize the workforce. Open your minds to what is actually in the contract and not what tdu tells you is there. They do post a copy of the contract offers on their web page. You would do better to read those postings then their skillfully crafted misinformation.

Obviously everyone should read the contract. As propaganda goes TDU is running a distant 3rd to UPS and the Hoffa administration. Who had the actual contract up first TDU or the Teamsters? The answer is TDU, so I'm pretty sure they are advocates of people reading the contract and making up their own minds. TDU is pointing out the bad stuff, and has assumed (correctly I might add) that UPS and the Teamsters would point out anything good in it. I'm not a member of TDU, but they've earned my respect.

Something to keep in mind about open minds.... An open mind is always a good thing. Just make sure your brain doesn't roll out.

 

[Mystakilla]

you guys must be reading the TDU misinformation page and ignoring the actual contract language. 8:50 to start with a progression that bumps them up within 90 days. That progression will actually help keep them here and stabalize the workforce. Open your minds to what is actually in the contract and not what tdu tells you is there. They do post a copy of the contract offers on their web page. You would do better to read those postings then their skillfully crafted misinformation.

Tieguy, I have read the contract, i have read your posts, i have looked at ups's site, i have looked at the teamsters site and the tdu site, I have read the contract, did i say that already??

I understand the 8.50 to start and the progression that bumps them up within 90 days! I am talking about starting them out at a higher rate! 8.50 is ridiculous THEN give them a raise after 90 days or whatever!! they need to be starting part timers out atleast at 10-11 dollars per hour. Then in 90 days give them a raise, this will keep and also draw more people to work for ups.

 

[Fnix]

I have a question. San Fransisco minimum wage is $9.36. So does that mean UPS employess there make $9.36 or still $8.50? Isnt that illegal to pay under minimum wage?

 

[tieguy]

Tieguy, I have read the contract, i have read your posts, i have looked at ups's site, i have looked at the teamsters site and the tdu site, I have read the contract, did i say that already??

I understand the 8.50 to start and the progression that bumps them up within 90 days! I am talking about starting them out at a higher rate! 8.50 is ridiculous THEN give them a raise after 90 days or whatever!! they need to be starting part timers out atleast at 10-11 dollars per hour. Then in 90 days give them a raise, this will keep and also draw more people to work for ups.

I believe the progression will keep them around and slow down turnover.

 

[tieguy]

Obviously everyone should read the contract. As propaganda goes TDU is running a distant 3rd to UPS and the Hoffa administration. Who had the actual contract up first TDU or the Teamsters? The answer is TDU, so I'm pretty sure they are advocates of people reading the contract and making up their own minds. TDU is pointing out the bad stuff, and has assumed (correctly I might add) that UPS and the Teamsters would point out anything good in it. I'm not a member of TDU, but they've earned my respect.

Something to keep in mind about open minds.... An open mind is always a good thing. Just make sure your brain doesn't roll out.

Your defense of the TDU misinformation page highlights why I keep encouraging everyone to read all sources of information and to attend their local contract reviews by more credible sources namely the people you are paying to represent you.