apwa : The unanswered questions

[satellitedriver]

ok, was in a rush, sorry for the confusion. If you read what nospin had posted as a reply -the WE came from paragraph 3 of that reply. I was asking a question from that paragraph.

No, the fault was mine.
I didn't realize you had cut and pasted a single qoute.
Hell, these 10 1/2 hr days must be getting to me.
I apologize for getting things out of context.
PAX,
Sat.

 

[brownmonster]

Mit, I can decide where to put the money in my 401k. If it fails I can kick myself in the behind.

 

[18wheelbrownie]

Well said, sir. Unfortunately, you lack one thing from my perspective: credibility as an organization. It was said somewhere on here that APWA isn't even a legit union. I'd be more willing to listen to much of what you said if APWA was a genuine union. It would give you credibility where you need it most. -Rocky

rocky, how come the pilots are doing well without the teamsters, it did not seem to worry them about starting their own union and don't tell me because their smarter than us!!!

https://web.archive.org/web/20110808073920/http://www.ipapilot.org/about/history.asp

 

[brett636]

rocky, how come the pilots are doing well without the teamsters, it did not seem to worry them about starting their own union and don't tell me because their smarter than us!!!


History of the IPA

they are doing so well that their pension pays out less than central states!

 

[brett636]

brownmonster, sounds like you are hung up on the management fees of the pension. Let me answer part of that, the fees in the current cs plan is 2%. With millions of dollars a year going into that plan 2% is incredibly high. The management fees the company that the APWA will use is 1 tenth of 1%. A more reasonable fee for the amount of money going into the plan. You also will see each deposit made into your account each week. As far as putting money each week into a 401k it also has fees for managing, it also can fail after all it is in stocks and mutual funds also.

Your ignorance truly has no bounds.

The pension funds are invested in stocks, mutual funds, and bonds just like an intelligently setup 401k is. If the market crashes enough to wipe out a 401k it will have the same affect on the pension fund(s) making them underfunded and requiring cuts in payouts.

 

[mittam]

Your ignorance truly has no bounds.

The pension funds are invested in stocks, mutual funds, and bonds just like an intelligently setup 401k is. If the market crashes enough to wipe out a 401k it will have the same affect on the pension fund(s) making them underfunded and requiring cuts in payouts.

Hey stupid I wasn't talking of failing funds, open your stupid eyes and comprehend what is written. The reply was about fees charged by fund managers. The ibt fund managers are charging 2%.The APWA has a company that will charge 1 tenth of 1 percent. Open your idiotic eyes and see what is written instead of trying to find something to dispute over every single word. What a maroon!

 

[nospinzone]

....An additional benefit of moving to a single employer plan is the improvement in insurance provided by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation. As a participant in a multi-employer plan, if CS folds we would only get around $1200 per month at best. But if we move to a single employer plan, that security increases to $4,000 a month.

 

[brett636]

Hey stupid I wasn't talking of failing funds, open your stupid eyes and comprehend what is written. The reply was about fees charged by fund managers. The ibt fund managers are charging 2%.The APWA has a company that will charge 1 tenth of 1 percent. Open your idiotic eyes and see what is written instead of trying to find something to dispute over every single word. What a maroon!

I will highlight the exact portion of your previous post so you know what I am replying too. While I will not dispute the differences in charges, I do not believe you have the knowledge of what is the norm for these sort of funds.

brownmonster, sounds like you are hung up on the management fees of the pension. Let me answer part of that, the fees in the current cs plan is 2%. With millions of dollars a year going into that plan 2% is incredibly high. The management fees the company that the APWA will use is 1 tenth of 1%. A more reasonable fee for the amount of money going into the plan. You also will see each deposit made into your account each week. As far as putting money each week into a 401k it also has fees for managing, it also can fail after all it is in stocks and mutual funds also.

And how does that put is in a worse position than we are now? In the case that the fund goes belly up, we would still be better off by going belly up with APWA than with IBT.

Please review the last paragraph in the answer to question one:

If the market crashes far enough to bring a fully funded pension fund to its knees we will have a lot more problems than just the pension fund. The PBGC that you are referring to does pay out more for single employer funds because they are more likly to fold than multi-employer funds. Again though, they may be a government entity, but their money is not infinite. If our pension funds fail due to the market the PBGC may find it hard to pay out even what they promise.

 

[nospinzone]

If the market crashes far enough to bring a fully funded pension fund to its knees we will have a lot more problems than just the pension fund. The PBGC that you are referring to does pay out more for single employer funds because they are more likly to fold than multi-employer funds. Again though, they may be a government entity, but their money is not infinite. If our pension funds fail due to the market the PBGC may find it hard to pay out even what they promise.

If the market falls severely enough to bankrupt our funds, and all the other funds, single or multiemployer, (you are describing doomsday here), then we are all up the creek without a paddle: APWA, IBT, Morgan Stanley, Janus.... So I still don't see how IBT can offer more security, which is what I assume you are suggesting here.

 

[mightymouse]

The few that buy this apwa scam not only have tunnell vision but also do not have a clue how to run a union or represent members.

It is easy to see that right to work and anti union lawyers are using our uneducated members to spread their beliefs and goals.

If ups and apwa could get rid of the Teamsters Union then it would open the gates for all employers to solicite a union free work place.

Then we could go back in time, when there was no middle class, only the rich (owners, managers, ceo's) and the poor (the workers).

The big picture is that this splinter group who spreads lies through out their newsletters is a scam and its only goal is to divide the members and disrupt the IBT goal of organizing 15,000 ups freight workers.

apwa has promised an election for over a year, they work 2 years to spread thier word and get less than 10 show up at a convention.

They have never negotiated a contract, represented workers and the only ones in my area who even attend a meeting are not stewards or union activist, they are the ones who dont believe in unions period and their only goal is to not pay dues.

Without dues there will not be agents to represent you as there will be no money, there will not be union halls or negotiating committees as there will be no money for that.

They do not have a strike fund, so I suppose UPS is just going to roll over on the mighty apwa and give them everything they ask for so their promises and dreams can come true, think about that.

Is it nospin who claims that grievances settled would be recognized by the company everywhere? Does he work for (or with) the same ups I have for 28 years. Just because you have a settlement it does not take away the company's right to violate the contract again, and when they do how is a group of unqualified and inexperienced non dues paying members going to fix it with no treasury? UPS would have a field day with this group.

By the way they promise more money in pension, better insurance, better representation, etc then why dont they tell us who the insurance is going to be with and is it guaranteed that coverage would not change? Who is going to invest our pension contributions and is it guaranteed?
How can they guarantee all of these things with out a contract or dues paying members? How can they claim that with no leverage to strike ups that they can even bargain for pension contributions or insurance rates that ups will just give them.

And as far as help from other Unions, there will be none, this group has not held up any of thier promises or goals, has made constitution articles with only 5 or 6 followers present.

They have so called representatives "all over" but no one knows who they are and by the way were any of these convention reps voted in or is it just if you drink the kool aid then your in.

DONT LET THEM DRAG YOU DOWN A PATH THAT THEY CAN NOT FIX OR IMPROVE. THESE 2 ARE OPPORTUNIST WHO HAVE NO PLAN OR CLUE WHAT TO DO.

Apwa, you and your anti-union attorneys and RTW friends will soon run out of money and get tired of being embarrased by what little support you have, unless you are now going to let grandparents and step mothers donate to your traveling expenses like you did spouses, what a joke.

 

[wildgoose]

The few that buy this apwa scam not only have tunnell vision but also do not have a clue how to run a union or represent members.

It is easy to see that right to work and anti union lawyers are using our uneducated members to spread their beliefs and goals.

If ups and apwa could get rid of the Teamsters Union then it would open the gates for all employers to solicite a union free work place.

Then we could go back in time, when there was no middle class, only the rich (owners, managers, ceo's) and the poor (the workers).

The big picture is that this splinter group who spreads lies through out their newsletters is a scam and its only goal is to divide the members and disrupt the IBT goal of organizing 15,000 ups freight workers.

apwa has promised an election for over a year, they work 2 years to spread thier word and get less than 10 show up at a convention.

They have never negotiated a contract, represented workers and the only ones in my area who even attend a meeting are not stewards or union activist, they are the ones who dont believe in unions period and their only goal is to not pay dues.

Without dues there will not be agents to represent you as there will be no money, there will not be union halls or negotiating committees as there will be no money for that.

They do not have a strike fund, so I suppose UPS is just going to roll over on the mighty apwa and give them everything they ask for so their promises and dreams can come true, think about that.

Is it nospin who claims that grievances settled would be recognized by the company everywhere? Does he work for (or with) the same ups I have for 28 years. Just because you have a settlement it does not take away the company's right to violate the contract again, and when they do how is a group of unqualified and inexperienced non dues paying members going to fix it with no treasury? UPS would have a field day with this group.

By the way they promise more money in pension, better insurance, better representation, etc then why dont they tell us who the insurance is going to be with and is it guaranteed that coverage would not change? Who is going to invest our pension contributions and is it guaranteed?
How can they guarantee all of these things with out a contract or dues paying members? How can they claim that with no leverage to strike ups that they can even bargain for pension contributions or insurance rates that ups will just give them.

And as far as help from other Unions, there will be none, this group has not held up any of thier promises or goals, has made constitution articles with only 5 or 6 followers present.

They have so called representatives "all over" but no one knows who they are and by the way were any of these convention reps voted in or is it just if you drink the kool aid then your in.

DONT LET THEM DRAG YOU DOWN A PATH THAT THEY CAN NOT FIX OR IMPROVE. THESE 2 ARE OPPORTUNIST WHO HAVE NO PLAN OR CLUE WHAT TO DO.

Apwa, you and your anti-union attorneys and RTW friends will soon run out of money and get tired of being embarrased by what little support you have, unless you are now going to let grandparents and step mothers donate to your traveling expenses like you did spouses, what a joke.

Hey mighty mouse the company is having a field day with the teamsters and we are paying $68 a month for this representation by ibt ?????

 

[Lizzard Toungue]

The few that buy this apwa scam not only have tunnell vision but also do not have a clue how to run a union or represent members.

It is easy to see that right to work and anti union lawyers are using our uneducated members to spread their beliefs and goals.

If ups and apwa could get rid of the Teamsters Union then it would open the gates for all employers to solicite a union free work place.

Then we could go back in time, when there was no middle class, only the rich (owners, managers, ceo's) and the poor (the workers).

The big picture is that this splinter group who spreads lies through out their newsletters is a scam and its only goal is to divide the members and disrupt the IBT goal of organizing 15,000 ups freight workers.

apwa has promised an election for over a year, they work 2 years to spread thier word and get less than 10 show up at a convention.

They have never negotiated a contract, represented workers and the only ones in my area who even attend a meeting are not stewards or union activist, they are the ones who dont believe in unions period and their only goal is to not pay dues.

Without dues there will not be agents to represent you as there will be no money, there will not be union halls or negotiating committees as there will be no money for that.

They do not have a strike fund, so I suppose UPS is just going to roll over on the mighty apwa and give them everything they ask for so their promises and dreams can come true, think about that.

Is it nospin who claims that grievances settled would be recognized by the company everywhere? Does he work for (or with) the same ups I have for 28 years. Just because you have a settlement it does not take away the company's right to violate the contract again, and when they do how is a group of unqualified and inexperienced non dues paying members going to fix it with no treasury? UPS would have a field day with this group.

By the way they promise more money in pension, better insurance, better representation, etc then why dont they tell us who the insurance is going to be with and is it guaranteed that coverage would not change? Who is going to invest our pension contributions and is it guaranteed?
How can they guarantee all of these things with out a contract or dues paying members? How can they claim that with no leverage to strike ups that they can even bargain for pension contributions or insurance rates that ups will just give them.

And as far as help from other Unions, there will be none, this group has not held up any of thier promises or goals, has made constitution articles with only 5 or 6 followers present.

They have so called representatives "all over" but no one knows who they are and by the way were any of these convention reps voted in or is it just if you drink the kool aid then your in.

DONT LET THEM DRAG YOU DOWN A PATH THAT THEY CAN NOT FIX OR IMPROVE. THESE 2 ARE OPPORTUNIST WHO HAVE NO PLAN OR CLUE WHAT TO DO.

Apwa, you and your anti-union attorneys and RTW friends will soon run out of money and get tired of being embarrased by what little support you have, unless you are now going to let grandparents and step mothers donate to your traveling expenses like you did spouses, what a joke.

Mightymouse, The teamsters have negotiated an average annual 3.2 % wage increase over the past 23 year's strike fund would last about 1 week . Divide 60 million into 200, thousand UPSers.Most attorneys at some time in their career have work for a corporation including that stodge Hoffa's. yOUreally that naive to believe that the teamsters have some mythacial magical power to negotiate a super contract that nobody else could possiby do ? Keep them in office and the only thing you will be drinking when you retire IS KOOL aid.It seems that you and the rest of the teamster supporters are more worried about winning a lousy 100 dollars in some grievance than being ripped off THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS PER MONTH IN RETIREMENT BENEFITS?Do you think UPS rolls over because of the pathetic TEAMSTERS?How long do you think the teamsters would keep us out on strike with no dues money coming in and no pension money coming in?They got you believing the one AND Only reason THAT YOU MAKE WHAT YOU DO IS BECAUSE OF THEM AND THAT IS UTTER Bull****. ONCE WAS OUT ON DIABIILITY AND THE INSURACE COMPANY REFUSED TO PAY THE LAST 6 WEEKS. I WENT TO THE BIG BAD TEAMSTERS LOCAL AND THEY DID NOTHING FOR ME. IT WAS IF I WAS BOTHERING THEM. THEIR LAWER WAS USELES.

 

[SandBagger]

Something else to consider:

Point one- UPS Brown is not just a bunch of illiterate truck drivers and box shufflers. From the many posts I have read on this site and others, I'd venture to say the same holds true over at UPS Freight as well. To assume there are no qualified people to step forward and direct/manage the APWA (should it reach fruition) from our ranks is a mistake that only the uneducated will make. You can bet UPS is sweating bullets over this because they know EXACTLY how many college degrees have been languishing in their sweatshops unused. You might also do well to recognize that the many blunders in the Locals are a result of inability to attract and retain true LEADERS because integrity is shunned and ability seen as threatening to the Teamster agenda. Ergo the "slate" elections where the incumbent (no matter how incompetent) always has the upper hand, provided of course one or two barns can be pacified or bull****ed into even voting.

Point two-Given the global economy and the looming financial crisis, (not to mention the 30 million invaders waiting outside the gates of every mega-corporation with their eye on your job) how much additional risk do you assume you are taking by gambling on something potentially better for the long run? As another poster already eluded to, how much power and might do the Teamsters really have anyway? Would a true powerhouse begin to negotiate a contract 2 years in advance (which screams "position of weakness"), or would they let Big Brown squirm for a year or so to gain leverage and momentum? No rookie answers to this please....you'll only embarass yourself!

Point three-I've seen posts recently that suggest the entire freight industry will soon be consolidated into possibly three giant corporations. That may seem laughable on the surface, as more than one of you have thought or said. The problem is that the "suggestion" is not only possible, but chillingly probable. In 2005 the timetable was set in motion by President Bush and his co-conspirators in the Mexican and Canadian governments, whereby the formation of the "working groups" of the Security and Prosperity Partnership emerged. If you do your homework and Google around a little, you will find that official US government documents list UPS CEO Mike Eskew and the CEO of FedEx as leaders in the five man working group for the integration of transportation and trade for the coming North American Union. Strangely, the main push to buy up freight companies began around that time as I recall. Do you think maybe the big boys have a plan? Do you think you fit into that plan for the future? I don't! (See point two re: illegal invaders at the gates) We have but a few short years at best to work to strengthen our position, and I'm not banking everything on the Teamsters. After all, didn't I see Hoffa Jr. courting the illegal aliens on stage during the May Day Immigration Reform Protest last year? Maybe not, but I'm betting you will be looking that up too won't you?

Point four:If any of points one through three have given you pause, I suggest you spend less time on this forum bickering and get down to brass tacks. Time is short and you better be getting your priorities straight. I knew some Pilot freight retirees that thought they had their life in order until they "retired". Most of 'em are dead now, and they died while trying to find enough work in their old age to supplement their meager "pension" and keep the roof over their heads. I don't want to end up like that after thirty or more years of pension contributions....1

If I have to base my decision of who represents me on track record (like so many here seem to espouse), you can bet that not having a track record (APWA) is by far better than the proven one the Teamsters laid down at Big Brown! If the majority of UPSers stood up in the past to the Teamsters "bosses" we wouldn't be facing this dilemma today. Problem is that complacency and apathy are the building blocks that our current Union historically used to build and maintain it's core foundation, and if anyone wakes up out of their "protection money" mentality they are quickly minimized through ridicule or simply shown the door. If you doubt that analysis, scrutinize the TDU and the progress they have made over many, many years of resistance to tyranny. Working from the inside for change cannot succeed so long as your own money is used to resist you and silence you. Get the Big Picture!

Oh, and one more thing....Work on your Union terminology around here! A scab is someone who crosses a picket line and works in spite of an ongoing strike. The correct vernacular applying to Van and Danny (and a growing legion of others) is "FreeRider". If you gonna walk the walk, be able to talk the talk! That's the whole problem with being a Teamster, they only teach you what they want you to know, and allow you to say only what they want said! I'd say you are only insulting your own intelligence when you decree that these guys are deadbeats and thiefs after supporting the Teamsters with their dues money for over 50 years combined before giving up on a lost cause. If every state was right-to-work protected we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion today...

 

[705red]

Something else to consider:

Point one- UPS Brown is not just a bunch of illiterate truck drivers and box shufflers. From the many posts I have read on this site and others, I'd venture to say the same holds true over at UPS Freight as well. To assume there are no qualified people to step forward and direct/manage the APWA (should it reach fruition) from our ranks is a mistake that only the uneducated will make. You can bet UPS is sweating bullets over this because they know EXACTLY how many college degrees have been languishing in their sweatshops unused. You might also do well to recognize that the many blunders in the Locals are a result of inability to attract and retain true LEADERS because integrity is shunned and ability seen as threatening to the Teamster agenda. Ergo the "slate" elections where the incumbent (no matter how incompetent) always has the upper hand, provided of course one or two barns can be pacified or bull****ed into even voting.

Point two-Given the global economy and the looming financial crisis, (not to mention the 30 million invaders waiting outside the gates of every mega-corporation with their eye on your job) how much additional risk do you assume you are taking by gambling on something potentially better for the long run? As another poster already eluded to, how much power and might do the Teamsters really have anyway? Would a true powerhouse begin to negotiate a contract 2 years in advance (which screams "position of weakness"), or would they let Big Brown squirm for a year or so to gain leverage and momentum? No rookie answers to this please....you'll only embarass yourself!

Point three-I've seen posts recently that suggest the entire freight industry will soon be consolidated into possibly three giant corporations. That may seem laughable on the surface, as more than one of you have thought or said. The problem is that the "suggestion" is not only possible, but chillingly probable. In 2005 the timetable was set in motion by President Bush and his co-conspirators in the Mexican and Canadian governments, whereby the formation of the "working groups" of the Security and Prosperity Partnership emerged. If you do your homework and Google around a little, you will find that official US government documents list UPS CEO Mike Eskew and the CEO of FedEx as leaders in the five man working group for the integration of transportation and trade for the coming North American Union. Strangely, the main push to buy up freight companies began around that time as I recall. Do you think maybe the big boys have a plan? Do you think you fit into that plan for the future? I don't! (See point two re: illegal invaders at the gates) We have but a few short years at best to work to strengthen our position, and I'm not banking everything on the Teamsters. After all, didn't I see Hoffa Jr. courting the illegal aliens on stage during the May Day Immigration Reform Protest last year? Maybe not, but I'm betting you will be looking that up too won't you?

Point four:If any of points one through three have given you pause, I suggest you spend less time on this forum bickering and get down to brass tacks. Time is short and you better be getting your priorities straight. I knew some Pilot freight retirees that thought they had their life in order until they "retired". Most of 'em are dead now, and they died while trying to find enough work in their old age to supplement their meager "pension" and keep the roof over their heads. I don't want to end up like that after thirty or more years of pension contributions....1

If I have to base my decision of who represents me on track record (like so many here seem to espouse), you can bet that not having a track record (APWA) is by far better than the proven one the Teamsters laid down at Big Brown! If the majority of UPSers stood up in the past to the Teamsters "bosses" we wouldn't be facing this dilemma today. Problem is that complacency and apathy are the building blocks that our current Union historically used to build and maintain it's core foundation, and if anyone wakes up out of their "protection money" mentality they are quickly minimized through ridicule or simply shown the door. If you doubt that analysis, scrutinize the TDU and the progress they have made over many, many years of resistance to tyranny. Working from the inside for change cannot succeed so long as your own money is used to resist you and silence you. Get the Big Picture!

Oh, and one more thing....Work on your Union terminology around here! A scab is someone who crosses a picket line and works in spite of an ongoing strike. The correct vernacular applying to Van and Danny (and a growing legion of others) is "FreeRider". If you gonna walk the walk, be able to talk the talk! That's the whole problem with being a Teamster, they only teach you what they want you to know, and allow you to say only what they want said! I'd say you are only insulting your own intelligence when you decree that these guys are deadbeats and thiefs after supporting the Teamsters with their dues money for over 50 years combined before giving up on a lost cause. If every state was right-to-work protected we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion today...

Welcome van! Or is it Danny?

 

[nospinzone]

Welcome van! Or is it Danny?

Red, you would have just been better off not to reply at all to Sands post than to show the weakness of the Teamster's ideology and lack of a counter-arguement to his discussion with your thought provoking reply of "Welcome Van! Or is it Danny?" Seriously, did you just come up with that or did your local president feed you that zinger?

 

[SandBagger]

Nope Red! Not even close!
Point of fact, there's new players on the field and it's time to play ball!

I (among others) have sat on the sidelines sandbagging for a looooong time, waiting for enough good men to step up to the plate and take a swing. Finally, finally, there are appearing from among the bleachers walk-ons with the ability to make UPS and UPS Freight hourly wage earners champions! I think the time of the teary-eyed whiner and the badgering backstabber has run it's course and at this stage of the game there is little left to lose anyway!

I'll check back in a few days, and give you a chance to look up some of the stuff I referred to earlier. That will also give you ample opportunity to get some advice from the wanna-be spin doctors at the Local. I think I'm gonna enjoy your next reply!

BTW- NoSpin, thanks for the follow-up! I actually was looking for something else entirely when I Googled my way into this roadhouse. After reading for quite a while and seeing you having so much fun beating back the attacks I decided to jump in and give you a little rest! Thanks for keeping it real over here in this forum. I know you probably already chewed half your bottom lip off and most of your tongue, but it's worth it I guess if you can get the message across. I hate the Freight guys have to be exposed to this stuff, but it's not like the informed ones are gonna let Teamsters in the door anyway....

I was thinking today about all the pro-Teamster hail-marys that were tossed up on a wing and a prayer in this forum but I didn't see any completions. Can't ANYBODY tell me something good that the Teamsters did over the last 20 years at UPS? Let's start a list and actually weigh the good against the bad here? (Forgive me if this has already been done, but I'm new to Brown Cafe and just need a little help catching up!) You never know, maybe the APWA has brainwashed me and tricked me into bad choices! Maybe you can help me Red....You start the list! (Be careful though cause I've been around a long time and I'll call you on a stinker!)

 

[SandBagger]

Hey NoSpin! I was just logging off when your comment to Red really hit home! Look at his reply to my post again! He didn't have to check in at the Local for that zinger. He IS the Local! That was a BA reply to a member inquiry if I ever read one..

 

[Cole]

Can't ANYBODY tell me something good that the Teamsters did over the last 20 years at UPS?

SandBagger,

We do make close to $30.00 and hour, which i seriousley doubt would be the case if we had no union. No I am not being Teamster cheerleader, but to imply that they have done nothing is nonsense. It is true alot of times the minimal is done, but there is some responsibility on the members that do not get involved at all, and think their ba's are psychic and know the problems they face etc...

Also, if the APWA won cba rights, I imagine the contract w/ the Teamsters would be the model they would go by, so let's not completley disregard the Teamsters, as there are good and bad one's for sure.

 

[SandBagger]

We do make close to $30.00 and hour, which i seriousley doubt would be the case if we had no union. No I am not being Teamster cheerleader, but to imply that they have done nothing is nonsense. It is true alot of times the minimal is done, but there is some responsibility on the members that do not get involved at all, and think their ba's are psychic and know the problems they face etc...

Also, if the APWA won cba rights, I imagine the contract w/ the Teamsters would be the model they would go by, so let's not completley disregard the Teamsters, as there are good and bad one's for sure.

Excellent observation Cole, and thanks for sharing it! Now let's narrow our focus for a minute and study your statement in further detail...

It appears the Teamsters you refer to are Teamster leadership in reference to the gains made over the years in your hourly rate. I will remind you that the guys you elude to are merely a mouthpiece in negotiations, voicing the concerns of the rank and file ,which they collect prior to beginning the negotiations through local surveys of those contributing their input from the workplace. They then "negotiate" your position with UPS and report back to you what the company tells them to as negotiations wrap up. In case you are unaware of it, the company also has surveyed you (directly and indirectly) for up to a year prior to the end of your current contract and has a good sense of exactly what leverage to apply and when to manipulate you into accepting their offer. They of course are also all the while gauging current economic conditions and movement by their competitors, as well as public sentiment. Bottom line is, when the "offer" gets to you it is your (the member) choice as to how you will react. It is you who cast the strike vote (regardless of how the Union reccommends you vote), and it is you who walk off the job and risk your livelihood. Don't give too much credit to the union leadership for what you have today. I can tell you in great detail how you came to have it and how it was "earned", and it wasn't by the miserable support or the few capitalized photo ops on the picket line by the Local Executive Board members and BAs. It was the rank and file who stood up to Big Brown outside the gates, and I'm not talking about the 30-40% who simply stayed home during the last strike. I'm talking about the men and women who stood toe-to-toe against the management, the cops, the scabs, and the elements. Where I was, it wasn't the leadership out there day and night!

I think you should have already figured out I'm not anti-union, just anti-Teamster....

Yes, I too imagine the current contract would be the model to be worked from should the APWA fully materialize. It would be illogical to assume otherwise. Again, I remind you...That contract language originated from the concerns of the rank and file, and if anything it was diluted and polluted by the "negotiators" before it was brought back to the membership for a vote. Do you think the "gray areas" which permiate each successive agreement like swiss cheese are an accident? If so isn't that calling the "negotiators" at best incompetent? I assure you when the rank and file submitted the "proposals" there were no gray areas. Now how much credit are you willing to give? Disregard the Teamsters for their negotiating skills? Heck no!!! I want to give credit whre credit is due!

I also agree that the root of the problem lies in the irresponsibility of the membership. Like I said before, It's a "protection money mentality", and the IBT has never (during my career anyway) done anything to discourage that line of thinking. As a matter of fact complacency is exactly what they cultivate, and so long as people simply send money and stay away from the day to day activities of the union why would one reasonably expect to have to actually do something for that money, eh?

Psychic BA's Now there's a good one....Most of the time you can't see them or get them on the phone long enough to see if they even speak English!

 

[Cole]

I agree with most of what you said, and as far as the psychic ba's, that wasn't me taking up for them, because I have seen some very shotty one's no doubt, and even as a steward had to file a law suit against the Teamsters and UPS at one time for their lack of representation, but I was referring to those who constantly slam the union, but never get involved, and think somehow they can always blame the ba, who has no clue what their problem is.

I have no problem getting in touch with mine, and it has taken some heated discussions to get things better. As far as the strike, our local exec board only came around rarely, and that was when I got som folks from the parcel office of the IBT to come talk to our folks a bit.