apwa : The unanswered questions

[Cole]

Come on Sandbagger, if you don't know your ba well enough to know if he "speaks English" etc...shouldn't you folks be calling your local Pres and set up a meeting to discuss the representation, or lack there of? With the pressure from the APWA now is a good time to get on their

 

[705red]

Nope Red! Not even close!
Point of fact, there's new players on the field and it's time to play ball!

I (among others) have sat on the sidelines sandbagging for a looooong time, waiting for enough good men to step up to the plate and take a swing. Finally, finally, there are appearing from among the bleachers walk-ons with the ability to make UPS and UPS Freight hourly wage earners champions! I think the time of the teary-eyed whiner and the badgering backstabber has run it's course and at this stage of the game there is little left to lose anyway!

I'll check back in a few days, and give you a chance to look up some of the stuff I referred to earlier. That will also give you ample opportunity to get some advice from the wanna-be spin doctors at the Local. I think I'm gonna enjoy your next reply!

BTW- NoSpin, thanks for the follow-up! I actually was looking for something else entirely when I Googled my way into this roadhouse. After reading for quite a while and seeing you having so much fun beating back the attacks I decided to jump in and give you a little rest! Thanks for keeping it real over here in this forum. I know you probably already chewed half your bottom lip off and most of your tongue, but it's worth it I guess if you can get the message across. I hate the Freight guys have to be exposed to this stuff, but it's not like the informed ones are gonna let Teamsters in the door anyway....

I was thinking today about all the pro-Teamster hail-marys that were tossed up on a wing and a prayer in this forum but I didn't see any completions. Can't ANYBODY tell me something good that the Teamsters did over the last 20 years at UPS? Let's start a list and actually weigh the good against the bad here? (Forgive me if this has already been done, but I'm new to Brown Cafe and just need a little help catching up!) You never know, maybe the APWA has brainwashed me and tricked me into bad choices! Maybe you can help me Red....You start the list! (Be careful though cause I've been around a long time and I'll call you on a stinker!)

First of all i would like to ask you if you are a curent dues paying ups teamster?

You speak of hail marys being thrown up by the teamsters, can you explain more on this?

Heres one of those hail marys from your organization the apwa, you even signed it danny!
SPECIAL NOTICE TO ALL SUPPORTERS

Folks we have two elections going on now. The people in Pittsburgh will be the first to have their election and they deserve all the support we can give them. They have demonstrated that they will now be the first terminal to vote in the APWA. All of us should be proud of the courage that the people of Pittsburgh have shown. The Gaffney election will be right behind Pittsburgh ; they too need your help.

According to a newspaper editor in Gaffney the IBT is advertising in his paper even though the IBT did not get on the ballot and they had EVERY opportunity to. I still do not understand why the IBT is campaigning for UPS. This is why it is essential for all of us to make a media campaign donation. Again we are not asking for an arm and a leg. If all of us would give just $10.00 we could have a very good chance to win both elections. Truthfully, if everyone gave $10.00 it would take care of the media campaign for months. To win these elections we are going to have to have your help. Please, those of you who have already been too generous don’t give again; you have done more than your share. We all have to share the burden if this is to get done.

Likewise we need you to send us e-mails for your support of Pittsburgh now. Send them to us in an e-mail as an attachment to the e-mail. We ask that you do NOT include your name just your e-mail address. We will take your e-mails to Pittsburgh . You cannot imagine what these e-mails meant to the people of Kansas City . It doesn’t matter whether you are package or freight; both are just as treasured.

If you are asked to go to Pittsburgh during one of the meetings, please go if you can. You can make a difference. You can help win the election.

In closing, the election in Kansas City was NOT the Kansans’ fault. In the final four days of the election they were lied to, cheated and swindled. Those of you on the package side are acutely aware of what I am talking about. Hopefully the NLRB will grant the Kansans another opportunity to have an honest election!
With your help we can not lose!!!



Danny E Eason
Emails dont win elections, and broke wanna be unions cant win either. Now i have stayed back and been respectful since the apwas demise in Kc, but i promise all of you, i will not sit back and allow some apwa troll to come here and bash OUR union! Hey sandbagger instead of sitting in the corner for the last 10 years crying like a girl and blowing your nose into klenex because you have been so wronged by the teamsters, you should have had youe at the meetings and should have been standing up for what you believed in, but you chosse to sit back on the sidelines and do nothing, and now you wonder why? Good bye danny!

 

[705red]

What have we got from the teamsters?
How about 10s of thousands of new ftime jobs for our ptimers.
How about our ptimers receiving prescription cards.
How about $28 plus an hour for drivers.
How about 8 hour language.
How about stronger overtime language.
How about seniority.
How about the grievance procedure.
This is just a few i could give you!

Now lets see what the apwa has done!
Said they had 80% card check in KC but lost by 3 to 1.
And this is who you want representing you?

 

[30andout]

What have we got from the teamsters?
How about 10s of thousands of new ftime jobs for our ptimers.
How about our ptimers receiving prescription cards.
How about $28 plus an hour for drivers.
How about 8 hour language.
How about stronger overtime language.
How about seniority.
How about the grievance procedure.
This is just a few i could give you!

Now lets see what the apwa has done!
Said they had 80% card check in KC but lost by 3 to 1.
And this is who you want representing you?

That makes a lot of sense Red, thats like comparing a last President to one running for office. Nice try though.

 

[705red]

That makes a lot of sense Red, thats like comparing a last President to one running for office. Nice try though.

How 30? Do you vote for a presidential canidate that has experience at installing mufflers but no experience at politics? I believe you see my point and im not here to fight with you the apwa supporters that have benn here for a while and i believe that we have an understanding and actually some respect for each others beliefs now, not saying that we didnt disagree in the past, but we have come to respect each other. My problem is with the trolls that pop up and want to sell us this bs all over again like its a new idea. We all will never agree on everything but over the last year or so we all have opened our eyes and see it all in a much bigger picture, so sandbagger do us a favor and go somewhere else to do your trolling, unless you have a rational thought in that little head of yours and your not just here to push your apwa agenda!

 

[SandBagger]

Red wrote:

do us a favor and go somewhere else to do your trolling, unless you have a rational thought in that little head of yours

What is it that you would understand about rational? To begin with, (as usual when someone has nothing to offer but emotional discourse in defense of their failed position) I’m not the one calling names, or implying that I own the forum and have a right to ask ANYONE to leave. Secondly, as I CLEARLY stated before my name is not Danny or Van, so if you can’t even understand that simple fact I’m not sure why I would be compelled to believe rational thought is even in your tool kit. You stated that you’re not here to fight with the APWA supporters that have been here for awhile because you have come to “respect” their right to their opinion, but you choose me to pick a fight with instead by calling me a little-headed troll? LMAO!!! You would be better off Indian leg-wrestling with a crocodile than debating me and my little head pal! Unless you are a glutton for punishment and go to bed at night depressed unless you get your daily spanking, stick to facts and leave the name-calling and insults on the playground.

That said, let me work with the more civil part of your earlier comments and questions. As a matter of convenience I’ll work backwards post-by-post so try to follow along and not get confused….

When 30andout asked you about comparing a retiring President to one running for office, you responded that you were referring to not voting for a muffler installer with no political experience who was running for President.

Where did any of the current IBT officers get their “experience” or for that matter where did the IBT founders get theirs? In case you can’t figure it out let me give you a RATIONAL THOUGHT to ponder…..maybe they learned as they went along, building upon the experiences of one another and forming a cohesive internal structure as they moved forward. Isn’t that the very concept that your weak argument against APWA is based upon? In case you aren’t aware of it, in many (if not most) current Locals Bas are “appointed” by Executive Boards between election cycles and then run on a “slate” at election time with previous incumbents. (Death, advancement into the International, or retirement being the only reason there was an opening in the first place) The only way they got any “experience” was after they were “appointed” by the good ole boys and indoctrinated into the “club”. If you are qualified and a hopeful to get inside the “club” and make real changes for the good and welfare of the Local, you haven’t got a prayer because you’re already identified as a dissenter and won’t be offered “membership” and a place on the slate. On rare occasions a particular candidate might be able to generate enough support to displace a member of the slate in a general election, but once in office he is one vote among several and so has little chance of changing the overall direction of the Local, especially since he is over-ruled by the International agenda also.

I believe your next issue was an answer to my request for what Teamsters has done for you over the last 20 years. Let’s list your post below and do a line by line analysis of each item you mentioned…

I will have to continue in another post because the reply is too long for one post. Please follow along below:

 

[SandBagger]

What have we got from the teamsters?
How about 10s of thousands of new ftime jobs for our ptimers.

Can you please substantiate that assertion with facts, or would that be too “irrational” for ya? While you’re scrambling around trying to figure out how to find document that ridiculous number, let me clue you in to a few facts you seem to overlook.

• The Teamsters leadership advanced language in the 1997 contract to “create” (how many#) full-time combo jobs. Over the next five years many were created, but only after the rank and file persisted in filing grievances for those jobs. The IBT did nothing to force the issue, instead relying on the broken grievance machinery to drag the process out and wear the membership down.
• By 2000 it was obviously not going well and a regional strike or walkout would have served us well, but nothing doing…. Also, many of the full-time jobs you are eluding to were in fact full-time positions already in existence and vacated/filled through attrition. Those jobs were merged into the total reported by the IBT to “fluff” the numbers when reporting on their progress at creating new jobs. Did you take a “rational” look at your worksite to see if any of those “new” jobs were being created between 1997 and 2002? I doubt it!

How about our ptimers receiving prescription cards.

I’ll have to again ask for more information. In my area the part-timers are not on the Teamsters check-off and are covered by the Company retirement and H/W plan. Although they pay dues, they receive nothing from the Teamsters plan. All medical claims are submitted to the Company paid independent medical contractor and the bills are paid directly from Company profits. I have no idea what benefit the prescription card you are referring to consists of, but until you explain it I can’t give you that as a plus in the Teamsters column.

How about $28 plus an hour for drivers.

I agree that we make a good wage. That has never been in dispute. What I disagree with is the narrow-minded view that we somehow owe absolute allegiance to the IBT because they miraculously negotiated that wage for us. The Teamsters got you nothing! Your efforts to stand shoulder-to-shoulder demanding fair treatment at the risk of losing your livelihood is what extracted that fair wage from your employer. Whatever banner you choose to unite under, it is not the flag you fly that does the talking. According to your way of thinking, you should send your car dealer a Christmas bonus every year for selling you a car that actually runs. Never mind that the car stays in the shop nine months out of the year…this was the guy that came through for you at point-of-sale! You might also be mindful that what KEEPS you in your job is your own hard work and what you actually take home at the end of the day is the fruit of your labor. I can see where deadbeats or clock-suckers would bow a knee in praise of the mighty and all-powerful Teamster Elite, but why would an honest man doing an honest days work worry much about losing his job? Sure, Big Brown asks too much (I know that is what you’re thinking), but what do you expect for $28 an hour?

How about 8 hour language

I’m assuming you are referring to cuts in mandatory overtime here? Do you know anyone who actually uses or has succeeded in implementing this “language”? I NEVER see it in action! Matter of fact, the average package driver in my building works at least 9.5 hours a day everyday. As for feeders, that language is useless because of the nature of the work. The only segment of the classification to which it could even possibly apply is full-time shifting. Looks like” 8 and the gate” is reserved for those “10’s of thousands” of new combo jobs you mentioned.

How about stronger overtime language.

See above

How about seniority.

How about seniority? What’s you point here? Teamsters gave you that? I earn mine one year at a time. I suppose what you meant to ask in your “rational” sort of way is what about recognition of seniority in bidding.
If you are going to tout that as a centerpiece for the Teamster model, think again. That is simply a fair way to acknowledge the contributions of a workforce and I don’t think it would take a lot of strong-arming to squeeze that out of any reasonable employer. After all, a company is only as good as it’s employees and a successful company knows this. You will (if you bother to look) find that this type of program exists today in non-union companies as well as union shops. It’s just good business.

How about the grievance procedure.

The grievance procedure? You mean the “ancient alligator”? Yeah, the one that is all mouth and no ears and whose teeth fell out long, long ago (If he ever had any to start with)! The current grievance machinery is a joke to everyone who ever had to use it. The employee starts out being wronged, has to prove his unfair treatment to the BA, then to the “panel” if he even is aware it has gotten that far or can afford to lose a day’s pay to attend the hearing, and if he/she is lucky enough to at least deadlock the panel has to then be subject to the whims of the Executive Board and whether or not they will approve risking the money to win before an arbitrator. Wow Red, what a compelling case you are presenting!

This is just a few i could give you!

Please, stop! Stop! I surrender!!!!!

According to my scorecard….final tally Teamsters and Red -0, Visitor- 7
How say you?

Continued next post:

 

[SandBagger]

Moving backwards through your posts, next we come to:

Now i have stayed back and been respectful since the apwas demise in Kc, but i promise all of you, i will not sit back and allow some apwa troll to come here and bash OUR union! Hey sandbagger instead of sitting in the corner for the last 10 years crying like a girl and blowing your nose into klenex because you have been so wronged by the teamsters, you should have had youe at the meetings and should have been standing up for what you believed in, but you chosse to sit back on the sidelines and do nothing, and now you wonder why?

And also:

First of all i would like to ask you if you are a curent dues paying ups teamster?

Thank God my small head hasn’t shrunk to the size of yours! Anybody with even a modicum of common sense would long ago have recognized that I know way too much about UPS contracts and Teamsters to have been “sitting around crying like a little girl and blowing my nose into Kleenex for the last 10 years.” If you knew my name, (which you obviously don’t) and if my Local kept accurate records, (which they obviously don’t) you would find my name on the attendance sign-in sheet for monthly business meetings far more times than I’m betting yours appears. That, by the way, would not be the only place my name was recorded… As far as whether or not I currently pay union dues, are you suggesting that an employee of UPS has to pay to have an opinion? I hope not because that is exactly what Teamsters leadership believes, and that is what eventually will be their undoing. I didn’t “buy” my job, and hopefully neither did you. I don’t have to pay protection money to keep my job and hopefully neither do you. (That by the way is defined as racketeering and you would be well advised to avoid saying things that point to such a situation, but if you feel so inclined have at it!) I don’t plan on paying to leave my job, and hopefully neither do you. So the point of even asking is….what?

Seems to me your assertion that I have been sitting back “doing” nothing is meritless, and so a statement of overt ignorance on your part. No matter, I will not stoop to your level and start calling names and stomping my foot in anger.



I hope this discussion has been “rational” enough for your Red. If not, feel free to express yourself again. One thing though, don’t expect any further response to your posts if you are going to lash out with name calling or other juvenile attempts to discredit or offend me. NoSpin was doing a fine job and I will gladly place you back in his/her loving arms whenever you wish…I have better things to do with my time than to expend it engaged in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent! As for coming here to post, unless and until the moderators of this forum ask me to leave, I’ll say what I please when I please thank you very much! There are plenty of other threads for you to rant on so pick one. Who made you the boss anyway?

 

[Cole]

SB,

The point I am making is no matter who our CBA is, if the members sit back on their laurels, the same things will happen, similar to the book "The Animal Farm", complacency breeds corruption, as does ignorance.

To understand our brother 705, you have to understand their local is massive, and they stand alone with their own contract, and they have after past problems turned that massive local around to be one of the best, so it stands to reason he would see the glass as half full where the Teamsters are concerned, and although we are quick to point out criminal elements from the Chicago region in the past, their peeps still have made some siginificant contributions to labor, and in some ways have lead the charge for improvements.

They have had many battles while some of us sat back hoping to reap from those efforts. I say that because may area is not labor friendly, and if our wages were negotiated locally we would likely not make what we do imo.

As far as Danny, Van and the APWA, and others in similar situations, I totally understand their situation in 391, and it is/would/will be very difficult to make changes in that local, but at worse hopefully their (APWA) efforts will wake the members up, and a sleeping giant will take hold of their futures better, as we all can do more to improve things in our respective areas.

Ok I am done!

Take Care all!

 

[705red]

Red wrote:


What is it that you would understand about rational? To begin with, (as usual when someone has nothing to offer but emotional discourse in defense of their failed position) I’m not the one calling names, or implying that I own the forum and have a right to ask ANYONE to leave. Secondly, as I CLEARLY stated before my name is not Danny or Van, so if you can’t even understand that simple fact I’m not sure why I would be compelled to believe rational thought is even in your tool kit. You stated that you’re not here to fight with the APWA supporters that have been here for awhile because you have come to “respect” their right to their opinion, but you choose me to pick a fight with instead by calling me a little-headed troll? LMAO!!! You would be better off Indian leg-wrestling with a crocodile than debating me and my little head pal! Unless you are a glutton for punishment and go to bed at night depressed unless you get your daily spanking, stick to facts and leave the name-calling and insults on the playground.

BTW- NoSpin, thanks for the follow-up! I actually was looking for something else entirely when I Googled my way into this roadhouse.
By your own admission you stumbled onto this site by accident, so were you trolling or not?


That said, let me work with the more civil part of your earlier comments and questions. As a matter of convenience I’ll work backwards post-by-post so try to follow along and not get confused….

When 30andout asked you about comparing a retiring President to one running for office, you responded that you were referring to not voting for a muffler installer with no political experience who was running for President.

Where did any of the current IBT officers get their “experience” or for that matter where did the IBT founders get theirs? In case you can’t figure it out let me give you a RATIONAL THOUGHT to ponder…..maybe they learned as they went along, building upon the experiences of one another and forming a cohesive internal structure as they moved forward. Isn’t that the very concept that your weak argument against APWA is based upon? In case you aren’t aware of it, in many (if not most) current Locals Bas are “appointed” by Executive Boards between election cycles and then run on a “slate” at election time with previous incumbents. (Death, advancement into the International, or retirement being the only reason there was an opening in the first place) The only way they got any “experience” was after they were “appointed” by the good ole boys and indoctrinated into the “club”. If you are qualified and a hopeful to get inside the “club” and make real changes for the good and welfare of the Local, you haven’t got a prayer because you’re already identified as a dissenter and won’t be offered “membership” and a place on the slate. On rare occasions a particular candidate might be able to generate enough support to displace a member of the slate in a general election, but once in office he is one vote among several and so has little chance of changing the overall direction of the Local, especially since he is over-ruled by the International agenda also.

Where i am at we ELECT our representation to serve us the members and yes several agents do get appointed. If they dont do their jobs then we vote them out like we did in 02 to get to were we are now! Most of our agents all started within the rank-n-file and have steward experience, as a matter of fact everyone of our ups agents were stewards previously or current when they were elected or appointed. It takes time to train people to be a good steward, let alone just to put someone in office with not even having the experience of being a steward. Not to say it couldnt work with some time, but with your apwa agenda time is something we the members wont have!

I believe your next issue was an answer to my request for what Teamsters has done for you over the last 20 years. Let’s list your post below and do a line by line analysis of each item you mentioned…

I will have to continue in another post because the reply is too long for one post. Please follow along below:

I cant wait!

 

[705red]

Can you please substantiate that assertion with facts, or would that be too “irrational” for ya? While you’re scrambling around trying to figure out how to find document that ridiculous number, let me clue you in to a few facts you seem to overlook.

• The Teamsters leadership advanced language in the 1997 contract to “create” (how many#) full-time combo jobs. Over the next five years many were created, but only after the rank and file persisted in filing grievances for those jobs. The IBT did nothing to force the issue, instead relying on the broken grievance machinery to drag the process out and wear the membership down.
• By 2000 it was obviously not going well and a regional strike or walkout would have served us well, but nothing doing…. Also, many of the full-time jobs you are eluding to were in fact full-time positions already in existence and vacated/filled through attrition. Those jobs were merged into the total reported by the IBT to “fluff” the numbers when reporting on their progress at creating new jobs. Did you take a “rational” look at your worksite to see if any of those “new” jobs were being created between 1997 and 2002? I doubt it!

Here in chicago i know that over 1500 new 22.3 combo jobs have been created and this is just 1 state. Are you capable of doing the math or would you like me to times these numbers together for you?


I’ll have to again ask for more information. In my area the part-timers are not on the Teamsters check-off and are covered by the Company retirement and H/W plan. Although they pay dues, they receive nothing from the Teamsters plan. All medical claims are submitted to the Company paid independent medical contractor and the bills are paid directly from Company profits. I have no idea what benefit the prescription card you are referring to consists of, but until you explain it I can’t give you that as a plus in the Teamsters column.

Here p-timers and friend-timers receive the same medival benefits and in 02 the ptimers received prescription cards as part of the negiotations. Previously they had to pay the full amount out of their pockets and wait to get reimbursed several weeks later after filling out the right forms.

I agree that we make a good wage. That has never been in dispute. What I disagree with is the narrow-minded view that we somehow owe absolute allegiance to the IBT because they miraculously negotiated that wage for us. The Teamsters got you nothing! Your efforts to stand shoulder-to-shoulder demanding fair treatment at the risk of losing your livelihood is what extracted that fair wage from your employer. Whatever banner you choose to unite under, it is not the flag you fly that does the talking. According to your way of thinking, you should send your car dealer a Christmas bonus every year for selling you a car that actually runs. Never mind that the car stays in the shop nine months out of the year…this was the guy that came through for you at point-of-sale! You might also be mindful that what KEEPS you in your job is your own hard work and what you actually take home at the end of the day is the fruit of your labor. I can see where deadbeats or clock-suckers would bow a knee in praise of the mighty and all-powerful Teamster Elite, but why would an honest man doing an honest days work worry much about losing his job? Sure, Big Brown asks too much (I know that is what you’re thinking), but what do you expect for $28 an hour?

I guess you feel that ups would be paying us even more without union representation? Ups is such a great place to work for that they would treat us so much better without any union here. I agree that we have earned the monies that we receive. but at the same time the teamsters are the one's that got us these wages and it wasnt ups's big heart!

I’m assuming you are referring to cuts in mandatory overtime here? Do you know anyone who actually uses or has succeeded in implementing this “language”? I NEVER see it in action! Matter of fact, the average package driver in my building works at least 9.5 hours a day everyday. As for feeders, that language is useless because of the nature of the work. The only segment of the classification to which it could even possibly apply is full-time shifting. Looks like” 8 and the gate” is reserved for those “10’s of thousands” of new combo jobs you mentioned.

Maybe the average driver in your buiding doesnt have the stones to file the grievance on it! Here every 8 hour reguest gets a grievance on it for better bargaining power over this issue when this topic comes up at negioations. In local 710 they have language which allows them to bring the work back at 8 hours. 9.5 every driver that files gets paid his double time!
See above


How about seniority? What’s you point here? Teamsters gave you that? I earn mine one year at a time. I suppose what you meant to ask in your “rational” sort of way is what about recognition of seniority in bidding.
If you are going to tout that as a centerpiece for the Teamster model, think again. That is simply a fair way to acknowledge the contributions of a workforce and I don’t think it would take a lot of strong-arming to squeeze that out of any reasonable employer. After all, a company is only as good as it’s employees and a successful company knows this. You will (if you bother to look) find that this type of program exists today in non-union companies as well as union shops. It’s just good business.

You know anyone that works in a non-union job? Usually seniority does not even play into it for promotions, vacations etc.


The grievance procedure? You mean the “ancient alligator”? Yeah, the one that is all mouth and no ears and whose teeth fell out long, long ago (If he ever had any to start with)! The current grievance machinery is a joke to everyone who ever had to use it. The employee starts out being wronged, has to prove his unfair treatment to the BA, then to the “panel” if he even is aware it has gotten that far or can afford to lose a day’s pay to attend the hearing, and if he/she is lucky enough to at least deadlock the panel has to then be subject to the whims of the Executive Board and whether or not they will approve risking the money to win before an arbitrator. Wow Red, what a compelling case you are presenting!

I do agree that the grievance procedure can be dragged out by the company way to long, and that we do need to better and stronger language to enforce it in a timely manner. I myself am being dragged out through this procedure right now and i am a little upset with it, but its still better than not having one!

Please, stop! Stop! I surrender!!!!!


According to my scorecard….final tally Teamsters and Red -0, Visitor- 7
How say you?
You must be a manager with the ie department with your fuzzy math scenario, because your math only adds up in your little world and does not figure in the real world that we live and work in.
Continued next post:

 

[705red]

Moving backwards through your posts, next we come to:


And also:



Thank God my small head hasn’t shrunk to the size of yours! Anybody with even a modicum of common sense would long ago have recognized that I know way too much about UPS contracts and Teamsters to have been “sitting around crying like a little girl and blowing my nose into Kleenex for the last 10 years.” If you knew my name, (which you obviously don’t) and if my Local kept accurate records, (which they obviously don’t) you would find my name on the attendance sign-in sheet for monthly business meetings far more times than I’m betting yours appears. That, by the way, would not be the only place my name was recorded… As far as whether or not I currently pay union dues, are you suggesting that an employee of UPS has to pay to have an opinion? I hope not because that is exactly what Teamsters leadership believes, and that is what eventually will be their undoing. I didn’t “buy” my job, and hopefully neither did you. I don’t have to pay protection money to keep my job and hopefully neither do you. (That by the way is defined as racketeering and you would be well advised to avoid saying things that point to such a situation, but if you feel so inclined have at it!) I don’t plan on paying to leave my job, and hopefully neither do you. So the point of even asking is….what?

Seems to me your assertion that I have been sitting back “doing” nothing is meritless, and so a statement of overt ignorance on your part. No matter, I will not stoop to your level and start calling names and stomping my foot in anger.

You can dance around a question real good, my friend! So i will take it that you are not a teamster dues paying upser! So you enjoy the rewards and bebefits of a teamster negoiated contract but feel you are to good to pay dues to receive these benefits. You have stated in your posts that you have been sandbagging on the side waiting for others to step up, You did post this? Right? If thats not considered sitting back and waiting to reap the rewards of others hard work i dont know what is!

I hope this discussion has been “rational” enough for your Red. If not, feel free to express yourself again. One thing though, don’t expect any further response to your posts if you are going to lash out with name calling or other juvenile attempts to discredit or offend me. NoSpin was doing a fine job and I will gladly place you back in his/her loving arms whenever you wish…I have better things to do with my time than to expend it engaged in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent! As for coming here to post, unless and until the moderators of this forum ask me to leave, I’ll say what I please when I please thank you very much! There are plenty of other threads for you to rant on so pick one. Who made you the boss anyway?

I have been through hell as a upser in my time with the teamsters and the company, and we never sat back and took it. We stood tall, we stood up for what was right, and yes some of my good friends lost their jobs doing so. In that we won back our local and voted in the right slate of officers with upsers leading the way to best represent us the members. So when i see statements ike yours about sitting on the sidelines and waiting and not being an active dues paying member it makes me sick to my stomach! You want what you want and obviously you dont care about your fellow upser next to you! Try and make a stand for whats right and not for 2 guys that arent even in a union now, and only care about 1 aspect (pension) and outside that probably couldnt run a car wash or a muffler installation shop let alone the biggest union company out here today!

 

[SandBagger]

Red, If you'd spend more time reading the lines than trying to read between them you'd get more of the message. I won't bother to explain to you anymore what the reality of it is, because you appear to live in a different one (reality) than a lot of the rest of us. I guess Cole explained that well enough when he said you had your own contract for your mega-local, and gee that must be nice.

It cracks me up how you skip over the meaningful stuff and just go for the jugular, trying to create the facts as you go. You have accused me of at least half a dozen things in this rant alone, with no basis for your conclusions other than your defective reasoning. (See "rational thought" above) Believe what you want about me, I couldn't care less....but you better wise up about the Teamsters. Just because you have things as good as you do, it ain't so everywhere, and change is nowhere as easy as you foolishly think.

I'll give you and Cole both one thing to your credit...you are absolutely correct about the vanishing kahunas and the missing input from the rank and file. What you failed tro mention though is the root cause of that phenomena and why it persists. Study on that awhile why dontcha. I'd give you my opinion and the basis for it but you'd just try to find another way to discredit it.

I'm not really sure how you leapt from my remark about coming here by accident to trolling the site. I guess your definition of trolling differs from Webster's or mine. I'm not "fishing" if that's what you're implying. I simply saw a chance to make a few points that hadn't been made and answer some of the "unanswered questions". That was what the topic of this thread stated was it not?

Speaking of "dancing around" issues, you're pretty good at it yourself when you're not busy back-peddling. Anyway, thanks for the memories and when you want to be polite, stick to the relevant facts, and debate like an adult without trying to make it personal maybe I'll address you again. Otherwise, feel free to make accusations, hurl insults, and stomp your foot til it explodes. Maybe you'll at least give other folks a laugh...

 

[SandBagger]

Oh yeah, one more thing...go ahead and "times those numbers" for me....turn your 1500 Chicago jobs into " tens of thousands" nationwide for me. My "fuzzy math" can't begin to measure up to yours! Maybe you got some fairy dust to sprinkle on it? And BTW, just how "medival" is that part time coverage? Sorry, I couldn't resist after all the crap you've been trying to shovel onto me...lol!

 

[Cole]

I'll give you and Cole both one thing to your credit...you are absolutely correct about the vanishing kahunas and the missing input from the rank and file. What you failed tro mention though is the root cause of that phenomena and why it persists. Study on that awhile why dontcha. I'd give you my opinion and the basis for it but you'd just try to find another way to discredit it.

I am well well aware of some of the root causes, and it starts with the ba, and stewards, then the senior members need to lead by example as well, but some people will not step up out of fear no matter what.

Sure there is colusuion that can seriousley deter members form stepping up, if that is what you're implying, we have seen our share here, and it gets old battling both sides.

 

[705red]

Oh yeah, one more thing...go ahead and "times those numbers" for me....turn your 1500 Chicago jobs into " tens of thousands" nationwide for me. My "fuzzy math" can't begin to measure up to yours! Maybe you got some fairy dust to sprinkle on it? And BTW, just how "medival" is that part time coverage? Sorry, I couldn't resist after all the crap you've been trying to shovel onto me...lol!

Welcome aboard bagger, i cant get my spell check to work on my computer, and im only a stupid truck driver, what do you expect?

 

[Buckethead]

You guy's can have that organization over there on the parcel side, just stay away from us in freight. Were smart enough to stay away from an unproven, start-up, wannabe union.

You will see more defeats like KC. By the way, way to go KC!!!!

And allspin, please tell your idols Van and Danny to leave our company be if we decide to vote apwa down. They should respect the majority, and just go away.

Now go back to fighting amongst yourselves.

Post Script:
I still think they should rename this forum the pros and cons of the apwa instead of UPS Freight. You guys totally hijacked this forum with your propaganda.

 

[govols019]

Nothing is stopping you from making your own threads.

 

[Cole]

No offense Buckethead, but if you've been at Overnite, and now UPS Freight, which was and is largely non-union, how can you say which would be better?

Anything you buy, car, house etc...has a contract with it, when you go to work you take your labor and skills, why shouldn't you have contract and say in how a large corporation runs, which largely effects you and yours?

 

[Buckethead]

Nothing is stopping you from making your own threads.

The Key word I used is FORUM, not thread.

This is suppose to be the UPS Freight FORUM.

[No offense Buckethead, but if you've been at Overnite, and now UPS Freight, which was and is largely non-union, how can you say which would be better?

I was with Motor Cargo, a superior company as compared to O.

I've been Union with foodservice, and I have knowledge of NMFA and Teamsters Union. I also have knowledge of the apwa, well, as much as the website cares to offer in education of itself. It has changed a few times so things that were up 6 months ago or so, (like the reason Van is upset with the teamsters, the 2004 pension cutoff he just fell short of) is no longer there.

Listen, If you guys want to form your own union than go for it, its your company to do it. We at the Freight side aren't really part of your company,freight is much different than package in revenue and day to day operations. We either decide to remain non- union or Teamsters.

Don't worry about offending me,Cole.