Avatar -Science Fiction or Disgrace ?

[wkmac]

wkmac,
I know that many people on BC hate long drawn out posts. I will keep this as short as possible and also as nice as I can possibly be in response to your post with questions for me - and the answer provided by you which shows a high degree of condescending cordiality. I also realize it is Christmas eve--I should be nice not naughty !
It would be very rare that I would mention my college degree and education --but in your case it seems to be appropriate.
I am not a barbarian --Philosopy was a minor for me . I could easily quote Locke,Voltaire, Rousseau, Kant ,Hume{no not Britt} --or hundreds of others to "spin" any argument in any direction.
To briefly stay on your hero Locke{nothing personal against him} I am sure your are aware of his basic premise against the Cartesian position and holds that man is born with "tabula rasa" an empty mind--which is shaped by experience, sensations being the basis and sources for all of our ideas.
Just consider --he lived from 1632 to 1704 --lived mainly in England with a short stint in the Netherlands. What were his experiences compared to Great thinkers and people in today's modern world ? Hope the point did not go over your head .
Also I know you are proud of your stance as a Libertarian --none of my business -but be aware as you crow about Liberty and property rights ---YOUR hero Locke was a major investor in the English Slave Trade through the Royal Africa Company and in his participation in drafting the Constitution of the Carolinas --established a feudal aristocracy and gave a master absolute power over his slaves{yes, wkmac the "good old days"}
Lockes statements on unenclosed property justified the displacement of native Americans --SURPRISE !!!!! Avatar !!!!!
I could go on and on with this post ----comparing how my experiences have shaped my opinions (LOCKES THEORY) --but I am sure that many who have read to this point are bored. So as you have already said --Back to the movie.

P.S.
I am a proud American who fully realizes that as a country or a people -nothing or no one is perfect. I am very tired of the "blame America" first crowd.
It is so very simple to me ---if you are so disgraced and disturbed by our past descretions and History ----You are free --go and live where you believe it is so much better.
I also have great Admiration and love for our military --which is why I originally posted this thread.

I realize this is Christmas eve and I truly hope for peace on earth and goodwill to all men -and may GOD continue to Bless America !!!

Island,

Sorry for the delay in response, holidays, blah, blah. Yes I'm familar with Descartes, etc. etc. Locke was not without his warts and as you said, no man is perfect. And there again IMO is the fallacy of a one size fits all system where so-called experts of societal moors determine the course for everyone. Locke as well as others were in a new found discovery IMO and in that they found seeds for us today. Sure, using Descartes' rotten apple barrel, you can throw out all the fruit but even Descartes suggests once done you can inspect the fruit closely and used what you determine is in fact not spoiled. Because Locke, his contemporaries and his future students failed to grasp that "all men" went well beyond the bounds of the "great white man" (more driven by religion than anything) does not mean today as we've filled our own "Tubula Rasa" with a different and broader understanding that we can't harvest the good seeds from Locke's apple barrel to plant a grove of trees in which to harvest a better crop.

And you said God Bless America while condemning Locke for his slavery attitudes. If you maintained a consistency on the issue, you'd divest yourself of all religious ideals as revealed in the 3 great monotheistic faiths being Judiasm, Islam and Christianity as all 3 condone slavery in their writtings. Even Christ in the book of Luke, Chapter 12 used the issue of slavery to teach a parable of the good slave knowing the master's wishes and performing them. Like Locke, seems even Jesus accepted societal norms of his time too and along with Paul, both are oddly very silent as in against on the issue.

I like the fact you say you are an independent and applaud that. Your reply in post 36 of this thread to Jim was very much spot on from top to bottom. But if they are ALL liars, and they are, and you being an independent, why the upset when I attack one side of the group of liars not that I don't attack the other side either. If you like I can just as easily attack the Libertarian party because the last time I voted libertarian was when the late Harry Browne ran for office. Oppps, sorry to blow my cover but if you go back previous to the November elections, you'd already has seen where I stated publically here that I voted for Ralph Nader and with the idea of economics in mind, I'm sure many would think that vote crazy and from one POV I'd completely agree. But then sometimes when a heirarchy that you know will obtain power pretends to be something you know they are not, what better way to point this out than to place someone over them that in fact is what they portray. Fight fire with fire?

Locke taught that property comes about as a result of labor (we're way beyond emient domain here) and then sez that property is inalienable in that no man also being only equal, never above, can not seperate a man from the results of his labor ie property without his consent and he goes further to say that if such man or group of men should ever try and co-op these rights, in defense of the product of his labor he has the right to overthrow (succeed) from any illusion of binding or social contract in order to protect said rights and institute another means or manner in protecting them. Locke taught that man in order to protect his inalienable rights could bound together with other men in a social contract to secure these rights but if that organization overstepped it's means and manner of purpose, then said individual also had the natural right to overthrow and set aside the old social contract and if necessary institute a new one.

Now if Locke were to inspire others to follow this evil madness, should not those men or their ancestors admit their sins, abolish what they've done and thus return to their original position they held prior to their sin? God Bless America you say? The very thing you ask God to Bless was very much from the rotten fruit barrel of Locke himself. I give you the great declaration of Independence and the words and influence of Locke himself!

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Island, we see things different and that's a fact I think we both agree on. Avatar is not the first movie to broach the idea of State wrongs and not the last. Steinbeck's Grapes of Wrath or Tolstoy's War and Peace could be seen in this manner just as some of Shakesphere's greatest works. Even Tolkien's or his good friend C.S. Lewis' works are seen in similar manner yet do we therefore cast the wide net on them as well? Do we then throw out all the John Wayne movies. some even at republic films were admitted up front for what they were? How about Walter Brennan who was more known than John Wayne for his close ties to the John Birch Society? Do we discount his movies because of his beliefs as well? Not me, I love the guy. I'm a huge fan of Rio Bravo so the idea of throwing out Wayne or Brennan seems beyond the pale yet the story of Rio Bravo is about greed and power of what today would be a corporatist so I guess Wayne and Brennan are anti-capitalists?

Avatar is as has been pointed out, just a movie and yes Cameron has stated what inspired the movie. However, lots of people arcoss the board are coming away with varying points of view and yes I am very interested in the political angle and yes I realize it's probably a bit politically charged, maybe even slanted towards one side of the isle from the other but yes I also see it possible where that seed of property that Locke planted might also bare some fruit because if it's wrong to go in by force and take the land, resources and economic abilities of a group of people from afar, is it not equally wrong to force people at home to give up their property (wages) and other means of property (economic abilities) for the purpose of a political agenda?

Did you ever take lemons and make lemonade?


Review of Avatar at FrontPorchRepublic

Well, Island, it's not about blaming America and with all due respect viewing it as such is childish regardless of any degree(s) one may hold. Don't think for a moment that taking a self examination of the country's military, economic, social, and moral compass suggests any less love of God and Country. That self examination is not a weakness but a stength.

Agreed! Good post!

I don't blame America but I do blame the State and if one wants to co-op themselves into a "group of liars" as one poster here correctly pointed out, then I guess you've saddled yourself on that one!

 

[island1fox]

wkmac,
I am sure we will drive alot of the other posters crazy -but bear with me -this might be a long one.
First of all -welcome back -no apology needed -hope you enjoyed the holidays with family and friends whether from religious,tradional or pagan historic viewpoints{your tABULA RASA}
I loved reading your thoughful response and was glad you did not point out any typos in my previous response to you --sometimes these long posts that happens -NO -one is perfect.
By this time -while they are free to continue to read this -hopefully they are bored -because this post is directed at you--I know I could have sent a "private" message -but what the heck(I have to give purple something to watch)
First of all --I hate labels -even my self described Independent. All humans are so "individually complex" that Libertarian, democrat, Liberal, etc,etc -can come close -but will in my humble opinion never cover any one completely.
My "Tabula Rasa" will never be complete along as I breathe. My personal belief(I will stop using that preface-all of this is my personal belief --not right or wrong or left -just mine)is that all Humans and the animal kingdom will continue to have their Tabula Rasa continue to evolve and fill
during their entire earthly existence.
To make this a little simpler--I have "jimminy cricket" inside of me --some say conscience or whatever. Not the liberals or conservatives or libertarians guide or govern my life --"jimminy" does ---my ethics --what is right or wrong to my being --my conscience---he never lies to me --even when I am being not truthful to myself or being bullheaded.This does not mean my "jimminy cricket" is correct ----He or she has been formed --as Locke would state
from an empty slate --my life experiences --good and bad -happy and sad added to second by second, minute by minute, hour by hour --on and on till my end of days on earth.
Which brings me not only to religious beliefs but my earlier empty slate.
I am first generation American--My father fled Ireland in the early 1920's -persecuted and "enslaved " by the same country that bought slavery to these lands in the year 1629 -Jamestown ,VA --an English colony --not America or the United States. For me this put in my Tabula Rasa --A much different view of slavery. I hate it I abhor it --but the same people enslaved my father ,grandfather greatgrandfather etc. When the English and the Spanish empires established Slavery on these shores --it took us much too long --but the process of a truly great nation eliminated it --that is why I do not "blame America" --Not perfect --racism still exists --but it is not just white to black --it encompasses many races and again --our inherently good country continues to progress.
My Father and Mother Raised six children as "Roman Catholics" in the slums of the South Bronx. We never owned a home,a car nor went on vacations. The church did not believe in birth control and my parents were devout --they had little other "comfort" in their lives. My empty slate was filled with many of these early experiences that still guide me today. Right or wrong I was always afraid to have children --I did not want the life my parents lived and was always afraid I would forever live in poverty.
My parents were also Democrats and believed that the very poor(even worse than them ) are taken care of by the good dems rather that the evil white corporate Republicans. My father worked two jobs -a union mechanic for the railroads and a security guard every sat and sun night -to get home on time mon morning to go to the railroad. My mother worked every night as a movie cashier after doing the laundry, shopping, cleaning cooking for eight . They never took welfare or foodstamps --their pride would not let them --they worked day and night so their children could experience the "American Dream"
They taught us right and wrong --and insisted on all six of us on getting an education and living a "better life"
This is getting to be too long --should continue at some other time--but a few more comments--
I consider myself a believer in Intelligent design --SOMETHING much greator than me ---I pray to God --for lack of a better term --but do not attend any man made church. You mention and quote the Bible to me --without offending anyone --it was written by man --as with all man made writings --right or wrong --Jimminy Crickett" is always there for me.
A few major issue that will cause controversy and other posters will try to LABEL me --but what the hell.
I believe in most areas the government only screws things up and the politicians are all mainly on power royalty trips--the people -mainly the hard working middle class gets shafted.
With that being said -Jimminy --and my TabULA Rasa tell me that true evil exists in the world. The United States will not be here forever ---maybe have already started its downfall. When debt and excessive social programs sink us --the cuts will have to be made in the mighty military --a new --not better --but new world order will emerge --EVIL --will always exist.
Before the "republican" label is placed on me ---I would pull all of our troops home --protect our borders -engage with the world but make sure defense technology --missle or otherwise would always be a step ahead of evil. Instead of getting involved in long drawn out conflicts --Only in an extreme and clear and certain danger to our nation --I would use ALL force necessary. Jimminy tells me I am not a war mongering animal --but will do what I have to do to stop agression. I live my personal life in that way. I try to respect all but if evil is upon me or my family ---I will survive !
Abortion --My Tabula Rasa was jolted recently. After numerous news reports concerning Planned parenthood and sonar abortions I did some research.
When you see the baby in the womb using its little feet and hands to try to fend off the abortion instrument --it will or should give you pause.
With birth control,the pill, the morning after pill --technology should deeply cut into the number of what 'JIMMINY" tells me is barbaric.
We get so dug into Left and Right -quote the talking points --that we cannot see the trees in the forest even while we are pissing on them.
Global warming --Let all voices be heard --we all should be good stewards of our planet --but if you do not know that money and power is very prominent in todays movement --beware -
Gays --each to his own --they should have equal financial rights and benefits and not be subject to discrimination. But Jimminy tells me that lifestyle is different --not worse or better than mine. A penis going into an anus is different that a penis going into a vagina. I am not judging but Jimminy tells me --no matter how much the gays yell and scream --it is not the same --again Jimminy is not telling me what is right or wrong --just the fact it is different.
If the gays do not like the term civil unions --make up a different name on your own --but "jimminy' tells me MARRIAGE is between a man and woman.
Can anyone say Gayrarriage ???

Now Diesel may say I am Repulican or a phony Independant or Purple may "call me out " --Each to his own.
Wkmac --I believe the older I get the wiser I get. Being retired I have climbed out of the "ups box" -I love the company --with its rights or wrongs------America --my father fled here for freedom and a better life --he did not enslave people nor drive the Indians out. He wanted a better life --especially for his children.
I have a much better life that my parents --I hope his 'SPIRIT" can see -He died when I was nineteen while I was UNloading trailors at ups.
My Mom died recently in my arms ---I was truly blessed to hold her ---no one can make me believe --such as Bill Maher or the Catholic Church -concerning the here after ---Jimminy or My Tabula Rasa tells me.
Welcome back --sorry for the long post
And may God Bless America --for all its rights and wrongs ---I have lived in three different countries for over a ten year period during my UPS years -Retired with free choice I would live no other place on earth. I try not to live in the past-- Just stongly disagree with the "honest self evaluators" that seem to belong to the blame America first crowd.
If we all truly worked together--We can only Imagine what this great Country would truly be --maybe in the next life If at all possible do not "label " me !!!

 

[island1fox]

Yeah and it was hard to see. Stupid 3d glasses didn't work at all.

Gee, I thought it was SOLDIER BLUE --with Candice Bergen and Peter Strauss ??? It had to be these dopey glasses !!

 

[wkmac]

wkmac,
I am sure we will drive alot of the other posters crazy -but bear with me -this might be a long one...........

Island,

I completely enjoyed reading that post. That's one of the best, most sincere posts I've read in this place in a very long time. Thank you for sharing your story with me. Besides as someone whose ancestors traces back to the Scottish Highlands, I got no love for the folks of the City of London either!

Ashame we've lost our common celtic languages and ways!

Damn Romans!

 

[tonyexpress]

I also enjoyed reading both of your posts as well.

 

[wkmac]

Island,

From another famous movie that had an underlying message as per it's famous director/producer, one I think you'll appreciate.

Are men property of the state or free souls under God?

[video=youtube;R-XGcNzVsNs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-XGcNzVsNs[/video]

 

[island1fox]

Island,

I completely enjoyed reading that post. That's one of the best, most sincere posts I've read in this place in a very long time. Thank you for sharing your story with me. Besides as someone whose ancestors traces back to the Scottish Highlands, I got no love for the folks of the City of London either!

Ashame we've lost our common celtic languages and ways!

Damn Romans!

wkmac,
Thank you ! I enjoy different ideas , points of view and great discussions with you and many on BC. When we step back --I believe that all of us have something to contribute, something to share---some disageements but much common ground

Gra Dilseacht Cairdeas !!!!!!!

 

[Old Man Jingles]

wkmac,


Gra Dilseacht Cairdeas !!!!!!!

Congrats on yours and wkmac's relationship based on Love, Loyalty and Friendship'.

 

[island1fox]

I also enjoyed reading both of your posts as well.

Tony,
I would think that part of your duty as a moderator is to carefully read all posts --to make sure all of us behave ourselves. Sorry both mine and wkmacs were so long. I am happy to hear that you enjoyed both of them. In the future I will try to keep mine as short as possible ---but cannot swear to you that it will always be so !!

 

[island1fox]

Congrats on yours and wkmac's relationship based on Love, Loyalty and Friendship'.

Mr Jingles,
Excellent !!!!
I would think these would be a good foundation for most relationships !!
Very fast translation --I am impressed !!

 

[moreluck]

Gra Dilseacht Cairdeas (pronounced graw deel-shocked kor-jas) and means Love, Loyalty and Friendship in Irish. These words of the essence of the Irish Claddagh symbol

 

[Old Man Jingles]

Mr Jingles,
Excellent !!!!
I would think these would be a good foundation for most relationships !!
Very fast translation --I am impressed !!

Mr Coffey gave me that power.

 

[JimJimmyJames]

Mr Coffey gave me that power.

"We all watch Mr. Jingles roll that spool, and how we did laugh. Fit to bust, we was."

As for Avatar, excellent movie.

 

[tieguy]

Avatar,
Great special effects. Why did Hollywood have to Spin their Liberal Message of America the evil, Corporate greed, Imperialism,Killing of our Green Planet and Showing the majority of our military and Marines as blood thirsty killers of women and children? In a time of war -when so many of our young are sacraficing so much ---SHAME on Hollywood.

I'm chiming in late on this one just saw the movie in 3D. Awesome movie artistically. In fact artistically I think they took the movie to a whole new level. I can appreciate the 3d did not have any of the cheesy features like objects flying at you to scare the crowd.

There was definitely some political messages in this movie which gets me thinking. In todays world we pretty much have to put up with the political messages As directors and actors become more agressive in selling their point of view. I'm a big fan of TV show boston legal and often have to endure David Kelleys militant political messages mixed in. So as I think about it I see the liberal perspective mixed in being very in your face. I know we have conservative directors and actors but I'm not coming up with any that are very in your face with their perspective? I know those considered conservative may be more prone to directing a movie that has a positive theme about our country or the police but I can't recall any that like to spice their script with comments that criticize liberal political leaders.

 

[moreluck]

We can only hope that Jeanine Garafalo never has a pet movie project !!!

 

[Jones]

We can only hope that Jeanine Garafalo never has a pet movie project !!!

I'm sure she's working on one just for you

 

[island1fox]

I'm sure she's working on one just for you

Jones,
She is too busy working on the series 24. I know --only fiction --but everything the libs are against --The HERO Jack Bauer breaks all the rules --and they cheer him for it --of course only fiction ????

 

[Jones]

Jones,
She is too busy working on the series 24. I know --only fiction --but everything the libs are against --The HERO Jack Bauer breaks all the rules --and they cheer him for it --of course only fiction ????

Maybe they know the difference between a TV show and real life .
I've actually never seen 24, I just hear about it. I had no idea that Ms Garafalo was working on it, I thought she was supposed to be a comedy writer or something.

 

[island1fox]

Maybe they know the difference between a TV show and real life .
I've actually never seen 24, I just hear about it. I had no idea that Ms Garafalo was working on it, I thought she was supposed to be a comedy writer or something.

Jones,
Of course real life is never mirrored in fiction and vice versa ???
I will cheer for Torture on TV --waterboard those terroists !!!!! Save the Fictional President of the Fictional United States ????
In "REAL" life of course no torture or waterboarding ???
Sounds like a Dr Jeckyel /// Mr. Hyde personality !!!!

 

[Jones]

Jones,
Of course real life is never mirrored in fiction and vice versa ???
I will cheer for Torture on TV --waterboard those terroists !!!!! Save the Fictional President of the Fictional United States ????
In "REAL" life of course no torture or waterboarding ???
Sounds like a Dr Jeckyel /// Mr. Hyde personality !!!!

I'm going to have to take your word that "24" is beloved by liberals, I honestly don't know that much about it. Does he really torture someone on every show? My impression had been that it was a plot device on one or two episodes, not that the entire series was a celebration of The Inquisition. I will say that if you start basing real life policy on your favorite TV show, you're on pretty shaky ground.