Calling Tieguy!

[interested]

Tie-

I agree we need to start getting an action plan together to increase moral. One of the things I have mentioned is we need to start firing ineffective management. We will not tolerate ineptitude in our hourly employees and are constantly in a state of turnover with those "who cannot cut the mustard".

Does this mean that you are a bad person because you can't unload 1500 packages in an hour?? No. It just isn't the job for you.

Same thing goes in management. If you are incapable of running an area, taking care of a customers account or developing those employees who are in your charge- You have a proven track record of failure. You need to be identified, evaluated in a definitive time period for attainment of a specific set of goals, reviewed and barring any concessions for improvement in that timeframe, fired from Ups.

You should be treated at all times during this difficult process with dignity and respect. But you probabaly should never have been hired and allowed to perform so poorly over a long period of time either. This accountability for ones ability to effectively do the job at Ups does NOT EXIST in the management ranks.

We have rules for stealing, dating co-workers, fudging numbers, why should we not have a policy to remove ineffective people, every other company wort its salt does it. Bad managers cost Ups more money, problems and good people lost, than do all those other infractions we listed, combined.

I think it should be the first step in helping correct our current state of tissue thin morale and substandard performance.

Set up people meetings, not with just management, BUT with key hourly employees that work with and for these problem managers on a daily basis. Foster an environment of open, uninhibited, fair discussion WITHOUT repercussion to get to the truth. Then take the steps necessary to begin to transition these problem employees out of Ups.

I think that action of this type would set an important precedent with all remaining management, align us and our policies with the rest of corporate America, and improve morale throughout our organization.

As far as your other comment Tie, the one about my long winded analysis for,

> someone that HAS the lowest ERI scores he has seen in 11 years<

I am unsure what you mean. Are you insinuating that I received low scores as a manager in this years ERI? Or just that I was witness to low scores in other areas?

I participated in the Eri. I was privy to scores in my specific work area (92) and was cognizent of some of the notable scores in other areas, but received no score myself in the ERI.

I work out of a virtual office in my current capacity and currently have no people reporting to me.

-Hope that helps clear it up.

 

[wkmac]

You know I see a lot of positive for UPS and it's beginning right here in this thread. This subject matter can be explosive because it can reflect down to a personal level. To the credit of everyone the discussion here has been civil, educational and I also believe productive. I'm loyal to UPS but I also know there are problems and many elements I don't agree with either. The first step in overcoming a problem is the willingness to admit it exists.

In that spirit it's general knowledge that beer is good for you so I salute you guys with this!

http://www.sydes.net/jokes/flash/beer.swf

Enjoy your Sunday fellas!

 

[dammor]

wkmac,

Cute. Better wish the women a good Sunday also though. Many work as hard as you do and see an improvement in the looks of men after a few.

 

[tieguy]

"I agree we need to start getting an action plan together to increase moral. One of the things I have mentioned is we need to start firing ineffective management. We will not tolerate ineptitude in our hourly employees and are constantly in a state of turnover with those "who cannot cut the mustard"

I don't know interested seems we are already losing plenty of management without upping the bounty. When you start stepping up the wacking of anyone a few innocenets always get caught up in the action. To make that statement you have to have absolute faith that upper management has the wisdom to know a good manager from a bad one. For the most they do, but some will wack a few subordinates to save their own behind.

 

[interested]

Tie,

I think your point helps reinforce what we have been talking about. The loss of good people through frustration and inequality has hurt Ups significantly. If you take it a step further, the ready availability of tuition reimbursement has provided a springboard for many young management personnel to jump ship into new management careers, sometimes even with our competition.

You also touch on an important point. You say that, "a few innocents always get caught up in the action-some (senior managers) will wack a few subordinates to cover their own behind"

If we really believe that to be the case, then that ALONE should be impetus for us to start identifying and eradicating these managers. I don't know about anyone else, but I would consider any organization that I was an active part of-to be less than professional that would allow good employees to lose their job because of the inequities of someone elses work.

What does that say about Ups? A senior manager that will sacrifice a good subordinate to ensure his/her own place in the organization, especially if that manager is not capable of anything other than delegating tasks and removing himself from the responsibility of his area, has no place in Ups.

I don't think you are alone Tie. Many of us have felt over the years that there is a culture that exists that feels that their years of service are enough for them to continue to make bad decisions and not be held accountable. Other fortune 100 companies do not allow senior management to operate under different sets of principles and goals, why should we?

We on the other hand are so accepting of the status quo and resist speaking out at times because we fear possibly LOSING OUR OWN JOBS for identifying bad management and holding people accountable with their superiors and human resources.

It is time that we begin to try and change those deep seeded beliefs that have been reinforced over years of cultivating favoritism and ineptitude.

 

[pretender]

"Pretender do you have the option to bid on one of those early finishing routes or is your seniority in feeders?"

Tie--Yes, I assume that I could bid on one of these early finishing routes. Although I can't imagine why any of these drivers would ever want to go somewhere else.

"Are the routes that finish early located close enough to the later finishers to allow the work to be distributed more fairly?"

Yes, they are. One of them is located in an area that I spend most of the afternoon; and I see other drivers out there at 6:00pm

"How did you end up back in package after feeders?"

I will try to make a long story short: I am in a building that has a hub, and 3 centers. Prior to our building became a Hub, there were several tractor-trailer delivery/pickup drivers (TDP). Once we became a Hub, most of the pickups were transferred to the Feeder department (CPU); but a handful of these TDP drivers and routes remained in the centers. Around 1996-97, it was decided that all of the pickups being made by Feeders would go back to the centers, which created more TDP routes. I bid on one of these routes in 1998, because I did not want to work nights any longer.

When I was in Feeders, I did whatever it took to get the loads there and back on time. I didn't want/expect a pat on the back everyday, but I knew my supervisor appreciated my performance--When I needed/wanted something, I only had to ask once. When I came back to the package center as a TDP driver, I immediately shaved 1/2 hour off of the route--Instead of the manager being happy that I was saving the company money, I was given an extra pickup...

 

[tieguy]

"If we really believe that to be the case, then that ALONE should be impetus for us to start identifying and eradicating these managers. I don't know about anyone else, but I would consider any organization that I was an active part of-to be less than professional that would allow good employees to lose their job because of the inequities of someone elses work."

I don't think you understand how the game plays out. You put pressure on a manager who is not getting results. The manager then puts pressure on the supervisors who report to him for not getting the job done. Guess what the supervisors then do? Trying to fire a management person for non-performance is not a surgical process.

 

[interested]

I have been here almost 11 years, I know how it works, smile* runs down hill. You get pressure-you pressure someone else. I am well inured to the food chain, we all are.


No, its not a surgical process, but it is possible. The key component is documentation. If you know that your manager is being reviewed for performance goals and he/she starts to pressure you outside of your defined work responsibilities, you need to involve human resources immediately. That is exactly why HR exists. To ensure that the organization is in compliance with the laws of the state and the policies of the organization.

H.R will not equivocate on your claims. They will investigate them, monitor your managers performance and take appropriate action in the case of anything illegal or inequitable. Remember our policy book states that we have the right to work in an area free of ANY THREATS. That means implied or overt. it is important to stress this-ANY THREAT WHATSOEVER.

Never, ever be afraid to involve HR to protect your rights and privileges.

Tie- I do understand your position. and I am sensitive to the pressures of going against the grain, but it is important that we have ALL recognize that this type of management style must end.

 

[local804]

Wkmac,
Very very funny

 

[tieguy]

To each there own Interested. I really don't think you know how it works. Management is already leaving at alarming rates. The process you speak of is painfull for everyone. Innocent maangers, supervisors, drivers and package handlers will lose their jobs when they follow your suggestion.

 

[wkmac]

You know I wonder if the pressure and frustration is just limited to UPS? The reason I say this is the recent early out program at FedEx which from my understanding saw more folks than FedEx expected leave the company. Our industry is extremely competitive right now with the paradignms shifting by the momment because of customer demands for service as well as investor demands for the the highest efficency, productivity and earnings we may continue to see this problem and it may even get worse. JMO.

Having dealt over the last several years with supervisors who in most cases don't know the difference between a bolt and fuse I've just thrown my hands up. I don't blame the supervisor per say because they're thrown in way over their head. A few are smart enough to admit they don't know and will ask and I try and help them every way I can but most just hide in the office and when a decision needs to be made they then come hunt us up so it can be made. By us of course! LOL! But I really want to

Where has the real UPS gone. The old days had it's evils but at least we had people who knew the job and everyone knew their place and what their duties were. No ditching your duties off on someone else or at least it was that way in my little world.

8 more years of this and at least I know I can walk away from this lunacy. You know what they really need is an ERI not for our immediate supervisors but for the higher ups even to the Corp. level. Boy do I have some real choice words for them and I'll guarantee their ears will be melted to the floor when I get done.

Hey I feel better now!
Time for a

 

[proups]

Interested: you seem to only address getting rid of "bad management" in your posts.

How about this analogy:
UPS is like a sports team. It's results are only as good as the coach and his/her players. The coach has to make the right calls, and the players have to execute in order to win.

At UPS, we have managers and supervisors that are not successful because they have employees that don't execute - even when they make the right calls. Can we get rid of the employees as well?

 

[local804]

Proups,
How about instead of getting rid of the employees as a first result, why dont we get rid of the suit that trained the worker and the manager who gave him his book.

 

[interested]

Tie-you bring up a valid point, people from every position in the organization will end up losing their jobs. Why? because they are not meeting performance goals. Do they deserve to lose their jobs-HELL YES!!!!!

Wkmac, Proups, local 804. All of you are correct we should not limit it to any position, tenure of employee, or rung on the ladder. If you are not cutting it you should be gone. I am not just talking about people who are late everyday or have a bad attitude. I am also talking about good people, who are on time, show great attitudes and are team players-but they are incapable of doing the job.

Tie made reference to how painful it would be to have so many losses. But how painful is it right now to try and do an effective job everday with someone who can neither lead or support you- because of improper training and insufficient skill set.

Tie, losing management people to other companies is THE REASON TO OVERHAUL THINGS, not the reason to keep bad employees on the payroll because it may be difficult or painful to fire them.

I have a question to Wkmac-Proups and local 804, All things considered, if you knew what you would be facing today on a day to day basis would you have made the same career choice?

Actually I would like to hear from anyone on this subject.

It is important for us to stress that regardless of how tough it is to hold people to performance goals and dismiss them if they are incapable of a certain standard-it is twice as damaging to keep them around. It makes no difference what their capcity is with the organization.

 

[tieguy]

804 how about if instead of getting rid of anyone we do a better job of training all of them.

 

[tieguy]

Interested I'm sorry I think your out in left field somewhere. I'm done with your discussion.

 

[interested]

Tie-

I understand. I appreciate your input.

 

[local804]

Very good point tieguy. I think proper training is very key.And as per interesteds question to me, I think UPS is a great job but if I had to do it all over again, I would have and should have stayed with computers.The average UPS`er makes 50k which is good money, but it is very tough to live here in NY on that salary.ALot of my friends in all different fields make much more money than me, but we all pick the paths where we go.If I made 50,000 in any midwest or southern state, I would live like a king.The taxes alone on my home are $6500.00 a year and the average home sells for well over 300,000 and needs a ton of work.

 

[wkmac]

interested,
You posed the question would I make the same career choice? Based on what I see right now at this very moment and based on what I now know, No I would have made a different choice if I knew exactly what I know right now. The one thing that does make me think otherwise or gives me some hope is conversations I've had with several folks in management who don't make the decisions directly but have the ear of those that might. They seemed encouraged in small ways but I just don't see that major of an attitude change between now and when I call it a day with my career at UPS but I hope I'm bigtime wrong.

My deal has nothing to do with money, benefits or even promotion but rather the opportunity to move further and forward into the 21st century and work on that technology with a greater scope of responsibility. What's also frustrating is to know that the reason I can't get this chance has nothing whatsoever to do with me. In fact I've had people at high levels flat tell me if it only involved me it would be a no brainer but the larger problems consists elsewhere with other people and situations. Some I completely understand and some I think are nothing but BullSchitt but I did greatly appreciate the fact these folks respected me enough to share with me some of the factors involved.

I made a decision 20 plus years ago and Lord willing I'll see it through no matter what with 120% but when you have a skill and knowledge that grows by the day but you can't really use it or expand it even faster mainly because of others you have no control over then yes you do get frustrated. The good news is I'm still learning in spite of the roadblocks and one day UPS will either make the jump it needs to or I'll walk away and then I go somewhere that I'll get a chance to really exploit my knowledge I've learned and also grow it even further.

 

[ezrider]

Interested,not being in management myself,I couldn't form too strong an opinion on how your end should be monitored.I grew up in a home where mom and dad both were on the management side of things and many of thier views run parallel to yours.The only management I've ever locked horns with are the ones that instead of trying to fix the root of a problem,take the low road of assigning blame to somebody who just didn't have a chair when the music stopped.

On my end of the operation,the only way to correct a mistake or inneficiency is to acknowledge first and foremost that it is one.Accountability is and should be a requirement for everyone,and if there are some in your world that are dodging that issue while at the same time holding you to higher standard than they hold themselves to,well then your right Interested.That's as bad of a situation as it could get regardless of what the company stock price is or what the ERI survey or any other number is.

Many have voiced in these boards about the needs for better communication between hourly and management people but if the management can't come up with a system in which they can communicate freely and openly without fearing some rush to judgement then your left with a less than cohesive unit incapable of making informed decisions with often compromised information.

Interested,can you openly discuss anything with your peers or bosses in a meeting or individually or is it completely compartmentalized on the other side?