class action lawsuit against UPS

[tieguy]

You called me a thief and you don't even know me.

Did I ? Did I say helen is a thief?

 

[tieguy]

You called me a thief and you don't even know me.

Look let me take a little sidebar here. many of you have thrown the integrity word around. I honestly think there are posters here who don't understand the word to its fullest extent. So I guess Dave is right in that I am being somewhat coy with this issue though I'm trying to be more devils advocate then coy or smug.

I know many of you have given examples of management you felt were dishonest or unethical. For the rest of us this type of thinking exercise we are going through with this issue is what we who are in management and want to keep our jobs, personally have to do to constantly ensure we are 100 percent correct. If I took a meal allowance on my expenses just because everybody else is taking the same I can lose my job. In this case the california courts have somewhat given you a loophole to use if you so desire. But at the same time we see ethics issues arrise in the news all the time where someone thought they were simply taking advantage of a loophole. If nothing else appreciate the point that there are many of us in the management ranks who take the integrity issue this serious and don't assume we are entitled to something we may not be.

So the point again if you were not harmed should you collect the money. And If you really believe you are not being dishonest then how do you reconcile with your own personal beliefs in your own integrity.

 

[gandydancer]

... Did UPS "steal" from you and if so how much. Are you now trying to justify money you did not earn by accusing UPS of stealing from someone else?...

No. If I were getting any money in this lawsuit I could perfectly well justify it because UPS management has successfully stolen from ME.

But I actually consider that analysis of the situation irrelevant. I do my job well because I take pride in doing things well. Management is mostly an obstacle to be overcome in order to do my job well. And as far as money is concerned, we are in a state of nature, fighting over the money the soulless machine throws off. Management does its best to exploit me and I do my best to exploit the company in return and that's the rules of the game they taught me.

In any case, you don't seem to have taken in what I said about the regulation of the transportation industry in California. Employees are allowed to agree to not take meal breaks only in limited circumstances. It is public policy that if the company fails to REQUIRE its employees to take the required breaks the company should be FINED one hours pay, payable to the employee, for each instance. UPS is settling part of its obligation to pay these fines at the discounted price of $87M, and that $87M is unaffected by how many employees sign up. By taking the money you are not alleging that the company damaged you -- the class action is here a mechanism for enforcing public policy, not compensating for damage -- and your not taking it saves the company no money.

 

[gandydancer]

... btw, I disputed my original $3200.00 "bonus". Looking at maybe three times that amount...

Can you give some details of the grounds on which you disputed the numbers? I've looked into how UPS arrived at the numbers for a fellow employee, and while the methods UPS used were real crap I'm surprised that anyone outside UPS has the information necessary to argue the point.

 

[gandydancer]

...I've been involved with a couple class actions before, involving products. I was always sent a form, questionaire, something to prove how I was harmed, defrauded, scammed. I have to come up with the proof that I deserved a part of the class $. You know what? The anal person that I am (keeping records and reciepts of everything I do, including a step by step account of all my feeder runs, be it sleeper or brown) has netted me some bucks. BUT! I wouldn't have been able to collect in these cases if I couldn't PROVE I was wronged!

Not so. It's quite common to rely on the defendant's records to identify the class members. I most recently got some free CDs from BMG Music over some push marketing allegation and I didn't have to prove anything -- BMG's records had shown I was in the class. In this case discovery requests were made for UPS' payroll records and part of the deal is that they don't have to release them, but they do have to come up with the names and the three numbers...

 

[Leftinbuilding]

Can you give some details of the grounds on which you disputed the numbers? I've looked into how UPS arrived at the numbers for a fellow employee, and while the methods UPS used were real crap I'm surprised that anyone outside UPS has the information necessary to argue the point.

Gandy, I have kept a detailed journal of both work related and family issues since 1987. About 6 years ago I came off "wheels" and took an inside job. Even tho I wasn't officially a driver, I still moved packages on an almost daily basis. In a sense, I was "off the books" so there was no record of my work. This also included many 10+ hour days. I created a spreadsheet detailing my work. I really have no idea yet whether my dispute will change anything. I just enjoyed tweaking the Tie.

 

[tieguy]

In any case, you don't seem to have taken in what I said about the regulation of the transportation industry in California. Employees are allowed to agree to not take meal breaks only in limited circumstances. It is public policy that if the company fails to REQUIRE its employees to take the required breaks the company should be FINED one hours pay, payable to the employee, for each instance. UPS is settling part of its obligation to pay these fines at the discounted price of $87M, and that $87M is unaffected by how many employees sign up. By taking the money you are not alleging that the company damaged you -- the class action is here a mechanism for enforcing public policy, not compensating for damage -- and your not taking it saves the company no money.

No I saw that. I don't disagree that the law says so. My point again is that the law may be flawed and that it may be costing california residents more then helping them. Such a law as you describe in all reality denies the business and the employee their right to exercise free will in determing such an issue. The law should protect an individuals right to take the hour lunch but should not penalize a company for allowing their people the opportunity to shorten their lunch if they so choose. So yes I thank you for agains sharing the legal language. I don't deny it exists just not sure its right.

 

[tieguy]

Not so. It's quite common to rely on the defendant's records to identify the class members. I most recently got some free CDs from BMG Music over some push marketing allegation and I didn't have to prove anything -- BMG's records had shown I was in the class. In this case discovery requests were made for UPS' payroll records and part of the deal is that they don't have to release them, but they do have to come up with the names and the three numbers...

And again if you were not personally harmed where the CD's were just compensation for some act perpertrated against you personally, then was the law that got you these free gifts judiciously applied. Will this law result in you paying more for your music CD's in the future. Probably. Nothings totally free.

 

[tieguy]

No. If I were getting any money in this lawsuit I could perfectly well justify it because UPS management has successfully stolen from ME.

But I actually consider that analysis of the situation irrelevant. I do my job well because I take pride in doing things well. Management is mostly an obstacle to be overcome in order to do my job well. And as far as money is concerned, we are in a state of nature, fighting over the money the soulless machine throws off. Management does its best to exploit me and I do my best to exploit the company in return and that's the rules of the game they taught me.

Ok. So let me try to tread lightly with this one since some of you think I'm blatantly accusing you of thievery.

Read your response. It does sound like you may be suggesting that you will take the money because you're a good employee and UPS steals from you or squeezes too much work out of you. This lawsuit was not set up to be a windfall for everyone who feels they are good employees working for a greedy corperation. It doesn't sound like anyone was missing meals to warrant 9000 dollar checks.

 

[raceanoncr]

Not so. It's quite common to rely on the defendant's records to identify the class members. I most recently got some free CDs from BMG Music over some push marketing allegation and I didn't have to prove anything -- BMG's records had shown I was in the class. In this case discovery requests were made for UPS' payroll records and part of the deal is that they don't have to release them, but they do have to come up with the names and the three numbers...

That may be quite true, Gandy, in YOUR case. Note, I was referring to MY case. I agree that records may be obtained from the defendant. I don't know about the details in the CA case. I too was involved with this BMG deal but all others I had to prove I was wronged.

And relying on a company's records to establish figures? I recently won a grievance (yeah, I know, to all you who do not file, it is a sin) and had to file again because the company wasn't paying. They came back and said they didn't know what the figures were! They didn't know how to calculate them! What? I said, "Do you trust me to calculate and make copies of all that was done and pay off that?" A week later I had my check...in the exact amount that was grieved and won!

So trust the company's records? I don't think so, no matter what the company is.

Remember, I was talking about MY cases, not everyones class action sue everywhere in the nation.

 

[helenofcalifornia]

Tie, yes, you called me a thief. Check your postings of March 15 and 16. You are such an apologist for the company. You and your blue ink!

 

[Iconoclast]

So the point again if you were not harmed should you collect the money. And If you really believe you are not being dishonest then how do you reconcile with your own personal beliefs in your own integrity.

How would you get the money if you weren't harmed? Would the courts allow a settlement of that size to go to people that were not affected by this issue? No. Would UPS settle a case that paid that much to people who had never been affected, No.

Again, you seem to want to place parameters on this that the law doesn't require. These are damages that UPS is ordered to pay, read that as penalties, thay are meant to be a punishment and a further deterrent to UPS for breaking the rules. It is not meant to reconcile a specific amount of lunch breaks. The law allows for a wide variance of people to rewarded for simply being in a class. The reason they do this is to punish UPS and to send a message that if UPS had never messed with your meal break, there wouldn't be a case.

You hit the nail on the head Tie, when you stated that,

"I know many of you have given examples of management you felt were dishonest or unethical. For the rest of us this type of thinking exercise we are going through with this issue is what we who are in management and want to keep our jobs, personally have to do to constantly ensure we are 100 percent correct."

Its management who want to keep their jobs, and they will do whatever they can to do that. Does it not make sense to you that if the rules were followed there would not be a suit?

Not -"I am going to buy lunch today, or, "our part time supervisors didn't keep good records" This is an endemic problem and because of the mindset that management have to keep their jobs, they do what ever they have to to make their numbers look good.

How about the manager that refuses to bend on this meal issue and his numbers are absolutely awful because he is following the rules to a tee? Is he lauded for his integrity?

 

[tieguy]

Tie, yes, you called me a thief. Check your postings of March 15 and 16. You are such an apologist for the company. You and your blue ink!

Show me where. I am discussing issues that has absolutely nothing to do with apologizing for or defending the company.
If you have some time go back and read my posts rather then assuming I am apologizing for the company.

 

[tieguy]

How would you get the money if you weren't harmed? Would the courts allow a settlement of that size to go to people that were not affected by this issue?

Exactly whats happened here and why I make that point. Still waiting for someone to show me where they were harmed and required that 3000 dollars in just compensation. Yep still waiting.

No. Would UPS settle a case that paid that much to people who had never been affected, No.

Lawsuits are settled for many reasons and guilt is not always the primary motivation. Again your singing in another galaxy. My point is show me you were hurt and that you personally deserve the 3 to 9000 check. Stay with me now. Answer that point for once in your life.

Again, you seem to want to place parameters on this that the law doesn't require.

Like fairness?

These are damages that UPS is ordered to pay, read that as penalties, thay are meant to be a punishment and a further deterrent to UPS for breaking the rules.

Again pay attention read my lips ..ready, I am not disputing the point that UPS agreed to pay this amount, I am asking someone , anyone to step forward and show us how they deserve the check because they were denied their meals.

It is not meant to reconcile a specific amount of lunch breaks.

Ok focus again.. ready it should require the plaintiff to prove they were harmed. It should not draft people without their physically enrolling. Get it?

The law allows for a wide variance of people to rewarded for simply being in a class.

LOL, good one. My point exactly. Instead of sueing for damages now this system is more like a lottery system where the winner does not have to leave the house nor buy a lottery ticket.

 

[gandydancer]

Gandy, I have kept a detailed journal of both work related and family issues since 1987. About 6 years ago I came off "wheels" and took an inside job. Even tho I wasn't officially a driver, I still moved packages on an almost daily basis. In a sense, I was "off the books" so there was no record of my work. This also included many 10+ hour days. I created a spreadsheet detailing my work. I really have no idea yet whether my dispute will change anything. I just enjoyed tweaking the Tie.

I dunno why the class action was limited to on-road driving, since the regulation applies to inside workers "in the transportation industry" as well. Maybe I can talk to Kershaw about a second class action suit...

 

[Leftinbuilding]

I dunno why the class action was limited to on-road driving, since the regulation applies to inside workers "in the transportation industry" as well. Maybe I can talk to Kershaw about a second class action suit...

Please make it a "stealth" suit. Don't know if certain people could handle another one.

 

[gandydancer]

The next thing you and the other california thieves will tell me is that you have integrity... Helen, I believe you should have taken your lunch not taken money you did not earn. I am absolutely shocked to see dd and you brag about the money that you basically stole through the court system.

Anyway...

It does sound like you may be suggesting that you will take the money because you're a good employee and UPS steals from you or squeezes too much work out of you. This lawsuit was not set up to be a windfall for everyone who feels they are good employees working for a greedy corperation.

No, I said that that kind of analysis is irrelevant. UPS isn't "greedy". Only persons can be greedy. I deserve whatever I can get from UPS not because I am a good employee but because, to repeat, mutual exploitation is the game it tought me. It gives no quarter and it has earned none from me.

 

[tieguy]

"...think..."? Here's what you said:

Anyway...No, I said that that kind of analysis is irrelevant. UPS isn't "greedy". Only persons can be greedy. I deserve whatever I can get from UPS not because I am a good employee but because, to repeat, mutual exploitation is the game it tought me. It gives no quarter and it has earned none from me.

Is it a flexible integrity threshold ? Real high when you're at church and much lower when you're at work? You have to admit it sounds like you're willing to blame someone else for taking money you didn't earn? In either case I do respect your honesty in admitting your hatred for UPS allows you to take from them. Many here have tried to be much more coy.

 

[gandydancer]

...You have to admit it sounds like you're willing to blame someone else for taking money you didn't earn? ...

Not only do I not admit it, I don't even understand that sentence.

...In either case I do respect your honesty in admitting your hatred for UPS allows you to take from them. Many here have tried to be much more coy.

I didn't say anything about hate. When I came tor work for UPS I didn't know the game I'd signed up for, so the managers got a free hit, or three. Back in '89 I couldn't believe the preload shift manager was baldly lying to me week after week just to save $1 an hour on me, less than $4 a night. But now I know what the game is, and every bit of cash I can extract from the company increases my score.

 

[tieguy]

I didn't say anything about hate. When I came tor work for UPS I didn't know the game I'd signed up for, so the managers got a free hit, or three. Back in '89 I couldn't believe the preload shift manager was baldly lying to me week after week just to save $1 an hour on me, less than $4 a night. But now I know what the game is, and every bit of cash I can extract from the company increases my score.

Ok. And I think its great that you are willing to share your insight into this concept of mutual exploitation. This kind of honest dialogue is good for this discussion. Most posters try to deny they took money they did not earn while you appear to be quite proud of the idea. Now that you agree you are taking money not earned because your preload manager would not qualify you as a sorter how far do we go with the mutual exploitation concept? Did you take COD money before we stopped taking cash? Do you also take time when out on the route? How about merchandise. Would you take the company TV and office furniture if there was no one around?
How does the scorecard look have you exploited more from the company or do you feel the company is still ahead? Again thank you for providing such honest insight into this issue.