class action lawsuit against UPS

[Cole]

It usually happens with rookies as most do this to make the 30 days. As far as the case goes, if they can show that supervisors etc...harrass them to skip the luch the would make it stronger, but as we all know many people do it to get off early. I have no problem as a steward with it as long as the can take an 05/pay actual, but not if they're not going to pay them for work. If one goes by the contract and eats between the 4th and 6th hour as the contract calls for, then if you have problems with bus deliveries or pickups etc...you should call and put the burden back on management, and do not accpet it if they tell you you have to be in and off by 9.5 with no missed. Be adament and go over the sups head because it is their burden to fix the problem. If you keep skipping you are a part of the problem. Work safe and efficient by using the methods etc...

 

[satellitedriver]

I have no dog in this fight.I can only add my observations.
If you did not take your lunch, that is your fault.
I make a lunch every morning and stop to watch the birds fly by while I eat and think of pleasant thoughts. I have all the same job responsibilities(sp) as anyother driver, but I stop, eat and refresh myself.
If as much energy was spent holding the teamsters accountable for the monies not given to UPS employees that was bargained for and attained by the teamsters, this lawsuit would be chump change.
My simplistic moral code will not allow me to accept money that I have not earned.
That same simplistic code will not let me stand by and allow to have benefits I have earned to be given to other than UPS (some of which are competitor's) company employees.
I will have to stand with Tie on this one.
If you were harmed ,then you have a case. If you were not, then you are just looking for some quick cash and are the poorer for it.

 

[Cole]

I have no dog in this fight.I can only add my observations.
If you did not take your lunch, that is your fault.
I make a lunch every morning and stop to watch the birds fly by while I eat and think of pleasant thoughts. I have all the same job responsibilities(sp) as anyother driver, but I stop, eat and refresh myself.
If as much energy was spent holding the teamsters accountable for the monies not given to UPS employees that was bargained for and attained by the teamsters, this lawsuit would be chump change.
My simplistic moral code will not allow me to accept money that I have not earned.
That same simplistic code will not let me stand by and allow to have benefits I have earned to be given to other than UPS (some of which are competitor's) company employees.
I will have to stand with Tie on this one.
If you were harmed ,then you have a case. If you were not, then you are just looking for some quick cash and are the poorer for it.

I agree to extent Sattelite, but as you know there are those such as you and I that are going to take our break/lunch etc...and will not be intimidated otherwise, but there are also those who are terrified of any threats etc...from management, and due to weak union representation it doesn't help. But veteran drivers can step up and atleast try to teach them the correct ways, but as we have all seen and know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Most people learn it doesn't pay off as they keep adding more and more to you.

 

[705red]

I have no dog in this fight.I can only add my observations.
If you did not take your lunch, that is your fault.
I make a lunch every morning and stop to watch the birds fly by while I eat and think of pleasant thoughts. I have all the same job responsibilities(sp) as anyother driver, but I stop, eat and refresh myself.
If as much energy was spent holding the teamsters accountable for the monies not given to UPS employees that was bargained for and attained by the teamsters, this lawsuit would be chump change.
My simplistic moral code will not allow me to accept money that I have not earned.
That same simplistic code will not let me stand by and allow to have benefits I have earned to be given to other than UPS (some of which are competitor's) company employees.
I will have to stand with Tie on this one.
If you were harmed ,then you have a case. If you were not, then you are just looking for some quick cash and are the poorer for it.

Wow satelite your moral code wont let you to accept money you havent earned? Is that the same moral code that allowed you to turn your back on your brothers and sisters when you withdrew from the teamsters. Most people that see theres a problem with something attempt to fix it, we dont tuck our tails between our legs and take the easy way out, we stand and fight. Enjoy cashing that check every friday that the yteamsters morally earned for you, no hard feelings.

 

[Cole]

We have been trying to fix it, but, things have gotten far worse, and imho it is a terrible tragedy that someone like Sattelite here felt he had to withdraw. Ok I imagine we should stick to the subject.

I do remember reading the Washington State Law suit about the company harrassing people not to take their lunches etc..., and there was one statement that imho was the $12,000,000.00 settlement statement, and it was a driver saying he had skipped his lunch for quite a while, then finally he decided he had enough and started taking it, so his sup started threatening him, and said, "we won't need you much longer, but they'll be here soon to crush your head".

To me I felt there was no way UPS was going to let that statement be read in front of a judge/court etc...I imagine the sup. that made that statment was fired. Also when they did settle it and paid it came down to the state's wage and hour laws, so if your laws don't support it, you may not be eligible for it.

It could be that UPS just let it get to doors of the court and decided to settle it. I do think, one has to exhaust the grievance system before going to the courts etc...or it can be sent back for the grievance system. You never know.

What about those drivers who choose to skip it without provocation from the company, alot of that goes on too, but I think most get paid for the time, but I don't know for certain?

 

[Cole]

I have to respectfully ask, how did the Teamsters "morally earn" any of us anything? Did they deliver our packages, did they unload our trucks, load our trailors, sort, etc...No we earned it, they negotiated it, but we earned it, as we earned a much better pension than they have provided since we're talking morals etc...

I know I am off topic, sorry all!

Peace!

 

[tieguy]

Wow satelite your moral code wont let you to accept money you havent earned? Is that the same moral code that allowed you to turn your back on your brothers and sisters when you withdrew from the teamsters. Most people that see theres a problem with something attempt to fix it, we dont tuck our tails between our legs and take the easy way out, we stand and fight. Enjoy cashing that check every friday that the yteamsters morally earned for you, no hard feelings.

Allright 705 let me be devils advocate again not trying slam you.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this california lawsuit was taken independent of the teamsters union and outside the jurisdiction of the contract. If the company is guilty of not complying with the states laws should the teamsters share any guilt for not enforcing the contract language that applies?
Should the initial plaintiffs then be viewed the same way you just described satallite since you could argue they also turned thier backs on the union when they took this case to court instead of the grievance panel?

Next point and this argument has been made many times when the company is deemed guilty of violating the contract. Why negotiate the language if you're only going to follow it when it suits you. Shouldn't loyal teamsters protect the grievance process negotiated by using it? Or shouldn't loyal teamsters show soladarity with their union by also adhering to the contract?

The other point that strikes me and Cole touched on it. If UPS is violating the lunch laws of the state of california then it should be an issue between the labor board and UPS. Why turn it into an act of class action sponsered welfare?

Now before any legal junkies start quoting california law to me I know what it says I'm strictly speaking on the flaws I see with the whole issue whether supported by law or not.

 

[brownmonster]

There getting on us here about not taking a full lunch. Seems you can solve the problem simply by saying "you need to take your full lunch period". That 1/2 hour just magically opens up in the middle of your 10 or 11 hour dispatch. And tommorow is "good" Friday. Motto "for every stop that is closed, you get 10 more from the busted route next to you"

 

[Iconoclast]

Tueguy - Now before any legal junkies start quoting california law to me I know what it says I'm strictly speaking on the flaws I see with the whole issue whether supported by law or not.


There are flaws in every law, you are correct, but you seem to still want to make the leap of faith that just filing class action guarantees victory. Class action without base or merit can, and is, defeated every day.

 

[Iconoclast]

I misspelled your name Tie - Sorry.

 

[Cole]

Look here's the way to deal with it, take your lunch and 10 minute break, if you don't want the excessive overtime, file under article 37. The bottom line is if you can't make the business stops by taking your lunch it is up to management to fix it, you just have to have the courage to enforce the contract. If you consistanly take your lunch they will get it in their heads that you are going to be off the clock for your contractual hour. If you skip, they will take advantage of that. If you have a good steward that person can help you, even if your ba is weak.

 

[Iconoclast]

Cole,

You are correct in every aspect, but you know that there are many, many people who do not stand up for themselves, that is why there are laws to protect them. One of the reasons UPS finds itself in the position of having such poor morale is that employees, especially management, are afraid to lose their jobs, so they cut corners and bend against their principles to superiors who constantly abuse the rules to protect themselves.

I applaud you for having the temerity to stand up for what is right, but you are rare - as long as there are weak and strong in this world, the weak will always be pushed to the wall.

Look at the excellent example you provided earlier -

Cole - I do remember reading the Washington State Law suit about the company harrassing people not to take their lunches etc..., and there was one statement that imho was the $12,000,000.00 settlement statement, and it was a driver saying he had skipped his lunch for quite a while, then finally he decided he had enough and started taking it, so his sup started threatening him, and said, "we won't need you much longer, but they'll be here soon to crush your head".

We would all like to believe that this is an isolated incident and that coercion like this doesn't go on everyday, but we know different. It may be more subtle than this extreme, but it still occurs. I work with several long time UPS peoeple right now who still will not even consider selling their stock without the approval of senior managers. It is their stock! It is the long standing subtle abuse of people that creates apathy and cripples an organization.

 

[LameDuck Supervisor]

The settlement is pending and should/will be finalized with checks issued in June. Settlement was for 87 million. One guy I know will get a ck for 19K. No kidding.

Yes, I get a piece.

I just came out of an official UPS meeting about meal breaks. The District Manager is being forced to explain this new policy to every management person.

No drivers will be able to be in their package cars before their SW. No more massaging of loads or pre-recording.

 

[tieguy]

There are flaws in every law, you are correct, but you seem to still want to make the leap of faith that just filing class action guarantees victory. Class action without base or merit can, and is, defeated every day.

Apparently not in california

 

[tieguy]

Cole,

We would all like to believe that this is an isolated incident and that coercion like this doesn't go on everyday, but we know different. It may be more subtle than this extreme, but it still occurs.

You keep trying to jump into this debate when you don't even have the basic requirement of having dealt with the lunch issue in some center somewhere. That however does not stop you from badmouthing management at every opportunity as if you are somehow trying to bond with the drivers here. Meanwhile your comment that UPS needs to break the teamsters still rings hollow on your attemt to suck up to the teamsters on this issue. You appear so confused.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't need to deal with a lunch isuue to understand the concept, I have worked at UPS for 14 years and I certainly don't need to have dealt with any issue firsthand in order to give an opinion on a message board.

Sucking up to the teamsters? I don't really acknowledge the union in the traditional UPS way. I have never felt an us against them attitude. To me we are all on the same page, we are all part of this company, UPSesr first and foremost. I have had to deal with many, many drivers in my years here. I have had to have some very frank discussions with them and at times, I have had to be very tough in trying to service the customer, but I think that some of my success is due to the fact that I never approach our drivers or treat them differently because they are in a union.

I understand the rules of the contract, but treated fairly and given respect, every driver I have ever dealt with also understood the need to serve, and in that vein - with a healthy dose of respect and reverance for smart people who do a great job every day servicing our customers, almost anything can be accomplished.

There is an old saying Tie-There is no limit to what a person can accomplish if they do not care who gets the credit. Every success I have ever had professionally, was due to the direct efforts of other people, and I have never failed to recognize that anywhere I worked - especially with our drivers.

You are right though, I do not think that we can continue to compete on a union platform, but if that platform were to be torn down, who do you think would be driving for us? - many of the very same people who drive for us now as Teamsters. The us against them is so over in corporate america, that mentality, like unions themselves, is archaic and tremendously draining on an organizations ability to change with the times and keep up with competition. The sad thing is, UPS still treats many of its employees in such a horrible manner, that you still need representation in many aspects.

It is a double edge sword, but it starts and ends with management.

 

[tieguy]

I don't need to deal with a lunch isuue to understand the concept, I have worked at UPS for 14 years and I certainly don't need to have dealt with any issue firsthand in order to give an opinion on a message board.

The reason I make that point is because its clear you don't understand the issue when you post. In this case posting on this message board i'm afraid it is a handicap for you. Therefore you are quick to throw around words like coercion when you have never served in that capacity and quite frankly have not earned the right to condemn those who have. You have absolutely no idea on how the lunch issue plays out in a center because lunch to you is something expensed with no limits while wining and dining a potential client at the best places in town. So I respectfully suggest you are way over your head on this issue .

 

[Iconoclast]

Respectfully suggest whatever you will, I will post as I see fit - just as many of your 2,000 plus postings involve issues that you don't touch every day.

Welcome to the world of message boards, Tie.

We don't wine and dine anybody, this is UPS - I need a presidential appointed comittee to pull out my American Express card, as do all of my business development colleagues. Once stricken, the UPS corporate Amex has more limitations on it than OSHA regulations concerning nuclear power.

I can always use help though, so explain to me what I am missing about how lunch plays out in a center. Perhaps it will shed some further light on this subject.

 

[tieguy]

Respectfully suggest whatever you will, I will post as I see fit - just as many of your 2,000 plus postings involve issues that you don't touch every day.

Welcome to the world of message boards, Tie.

We don't wine and dine anybody, this is UPS - I need a presidential appointed comittee to pull out my American Express card, as do all of my business development colleagues. Once stricken, the UPS corporate Amex has more limitations on it than OSHA regulations concerning nuclear power.

I can always use help though, so explain to me what I am missing about how lunch plays out in a center. Perhaps it will shed some further light on this subject.

The answers you seek are in the many previous posts of mine and those of others here who actually wieghed towards my points. Those you have chosen to ignore and thus you have denied yourself the education you ask for. You chose to take the opposite position in this debate simply to be the opposite debater. In the process you have come across as a very negative sounding management person. If you really believe as negatively as you have presented yourself here then you should in fact be a strong proponent of unionism since you will need them to protect you from those management folks who do not share your depressing view on events. Instead you called for ups breaking the union. While I can agree with you that being a union shop offers us some competitive challenges I believe that the act of "breaking the union" would destroy this company. Were you to understand labor issues as well as you claim then you would see the folly in taking such a stance. I therefore see issues in which you propose to take a position that is not well thought out or that are taken out of ignorance. You then demand I educate you otherwise. Once I respond you then choose to ignore that education and again respond with the same questions in a tiresome effort to win the message board debate by attrition or submission rather then by presenting sound logic. The fact is that your participation on this board tends to increase when I am the catalyst. This leads me to believe your positions are not thought out and simply provided to rebut whatever position I take here. I realize this puts me into a position of egoism but I think your track record will prove me right. I really wish you would find some other poster you could become infatuated with and take me off this pedastal you have placed me on.

 

[705red]

Allright 705 let me be devils advocate again not trying slam you.

Correct me if I'm wrong but this california lawsuit was taken independent of the teamsters union and outside the jurisdiction of the contract. If the company is guilty of not complying with the states laws should the teamsters share any guilt for not enforcing the contract language that applies?
Should the initial plaintiffs then be viewed the same way you just described satallite since you could argue they also turned thier backs on the union when they took this case to court instead of the grievance panel?

Next point and this argument has been made many times when the company is deemed guilty of violating the contract. Why negotiate the language if you're only going to follow it when it suits you. Shouldn't loyal teamsters protect the grievance process negotiated by using it? Or shouldn't loyal teamsters show soladarity with their union by also adhering to the contract?

The other point that strikes me and Cole touched on it. If UPS is violating the lunch laws of the state of california then it should be an issue between the labor board and UPS. Why turn it into an act of class action sponsered welfare?

Now before any legal junkies start quoting california law to me I know what it says I'm strictly speaking on the flaws I see with the whole issue whether supported by law or not.

Tie i dont agree with management alot. But if i chose to work through my lunch thats my fault and not the company in my opinion. So they gave me to much work ill take my lunch and break and bring work back. This pre madonnas wernt forced to work through they chose to, no one to blame but themselves. In my area drivers dont work on the docks anymore in the morning and now we get paid for our lunches and breaks if we dont take it, im happy with that and can live with it.

How could you take a case to panel about forced lunches ( unless you were really being forced to), Its your choice to stop . In chicago the law states they have to offer you at least a 20 min lunch.

Dont all the lawsuits against ups come out of california? Those p-timers are using that tuiton reimbursement wisely(grin).