Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan

[cheryl]

There is no health care crisis in America. There is a priority crisis.

So BAU, please clarify... are you saying that you really like the current health care system and want it to stay as it is or would you say that you are for a Libertarian approach like the link to the essay by Ron Paul that wkmac posted?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul175.html

"We can hardly expect more government to cure our current health care woes. As with all goods and services, medical care is best delivered by the free market, with competition and financial incentives keeping costs down. When patients spend their own money for health care, they have a direct incentive to negotiate lower costs with their doctor. When government controls health care, all cost incentives are lost."

 

[brett636]

"Once you put those numbers on it, the policy implications are pretty clear," Thorpe said in an interview. "You start with prevention and better management of obesity and high blood pressure -- not the contentious issues that have dominated the debate."

Think of the Gov't as a personal trainer. Because if nobody pushes your buttons and advocates health standards across the board, Americans overall won't prevent and manage themselves from getting ill, which in turn creates massive healthcare costs burdened to the taxpayers.
Free market for example with no restrictions...will sell you the most unhealthest foods possible and glorify it with Comm. ads, meanwhile buying heathly food costs twice as much...go figure!

whats even worse about that analogy is the plans advocated by the likes of John Edwards would require mandatory checkups. The last thing I want is the government telling me I have to go to their doctor.

 

[diesel96]

Perhaps I been misleading you guys with the word Gov't..
Clinton is not proposing a new government bureaucracy. Nor would her new plan strip people of their current health insurance.
Indeed, even the title of her new proposal — “the American Health Choices Plan” emphasizes flexibility and options, and not government-directed coverage.
There will be no new bureaucracy, you can keep the doctors you know and trust, you keep the insurance you have, if you like it. But this plan expands personal insurance and increases competition to keep costs down.
People who are satisfied with their current coverage can keep it.
Part of our health care system is the best in the world, and we should build on it. Part is broken, and we should fix it.
Under her plan, people could keep their existing coverage or pick new choices, such as an expanded version of the insurance available to federal employees or a new Medicare-style public plan that would cost people less. Large businesses would be required to help pay for insurance for employees; small businesses and individuals would receive tax subsidies and credits to help purchase insurance.
Paying for the plan partially by ending Republican-backed tax cuts for people earning $250,000 or more, as well as by netting billions of dollars in savings by reorganizing the health care system. Also press insurance companies and drug companies to focus on providing lower cost care — while at the same time, ban insurance companies from turning down people for insurance because of health status or pre-existing health conditions.The idea is not to put the health insurance industry out of business, but to help it find a better way to make a living.

Brett636
Mr. Edwards proposes an “individual mandate” that would require all Americans have health insurance and would raise taxes on wealthy Americans. Like Clinton's plan,you can keep your own Health Ins. and doctors you trust..relax

 

[brett636]

Perhaps I been misleading you guys with the word Gov't..
Clinton is not proposing a new government bureaucracy. Nor would her new plan strip people of their current health insurance.
Indeed, even the title of her new proposal — “the American Health Choices Plan” emphasizes flexibility and options, and not government-directed coverage.
There will be no new bureaucracy, you can keep the doctors you know and trust, you keep the insurance you have, if you like it. But this plan expands personal insurance and increases competition to keep costs down.
People who are satisfied with their current coverage can keep it.
Part of our health care system is the best in the world, and we should build on it. Part is broken, and we should fix it.
Under her plan, people could keep their existing coverage or pick new choices, such as an expanded version of the insurance available to federal employees or a new Medicare-style public plan that would cost people less. Large businesses would be required to help pay for insurance for employees; small businesses and individuals would receive tax subsidies and credits to help purchase insurance.
Paying for the plan partially by ending Republican-backed tax cuts for people earning $250,000 or more, as well as by netting billions of dollars in savings by reorganizing the health care system. Also press insurance companies and drug companies to focus on providing lower cost care — while at the same time, ban insurance companies from turning down people for insurance because of health status or pre-existing health conditions.The idea is not to put the health insurance industry out of business, but to help it find a better way to make a living.

Brett636
Mr. Edwards proposes an “individual mandate” that would require all Americans have health insurance and would raise taxes on wealthy Americans. Like Clinton's plan,you can keep your own Health Ins. and doctors you trust..relax

The devil is in the details. The last time Hillary tried to nationalize healthcare in 1993 her plan was over 1100 pages in length. Her latest attempt is just over 10 pages yet its already projected to cost $110 billion. We already know projected costs usually end up being more, and the final version of it much longer. What do you think companies are going to do when the government starts to offer cheaper insurance? They certainly aren't going to keep their current providers if they know thier employees can get cheap insurance courtesy of the government. That is unless their health insurance is mandated by a labor contract.

What makes you think raising taxes on the wealthy will do us any good? The Federal government is already raking in record breaking tax revenues due to the Bush tax cuts. If things keep going the way they are we will start to have a budget surplus in the years ahead to help us pay down the national debt. Why would we want to stop that? Not to mention what you suggest is really just wealth redistribution, which wreaks of socialism. Luckily for us Hillary is not electable so her plan is not something we have to worry about. I just hate seeing people being fooled into believing her plan is what she says it is.

 

[traveler]

Perhaps I been misleading you guys with the word Gov't..
Clinton is not proposing a new government bureaucracy. Nor would her new plan strip people of their current health insurance.
Indeed, even the title of her new proposal — “the American Health Choices Plan” emphasizes flexibility and options, and not government-directed coverage.
There will be no new bureaucracy, you can keep the doctors you know and trust, you keep the insurance you have, if you like it. But this plan expands personal insurance and increases competition to keep costs down.
People who are satisfied with their current coverage can keep it.
Part of our health care system is the best in the world, and we should build on it. Part is broken, and we should fix it.
Under her plan, people could keep their existing coverage or pick new choices, such as an expanded version of the insurance available to federal employees or a new Medicare-style public plan that would cost people less. Large businesses would be required to help pay for insurance for employees; small businesses and individuals would receive tax subsidies and credits to help purchase insurance.
Paying for the plan partially by ending Republican-backed tax cuts for people earning $250,000 or more, as well as by netting billions of dollars in savings by reorganizing the health care system. Also press insurance companies and drug companies to focus on providing lower cost care — while at the same time, ban insurance companies from turning down people for insurance because of health status or pre-existing health conditions.The idea is not to put the health insurance industry out of business, but to help it find a better way to make a living.

Brett636
Mr. Edwards proposes an “individual mandate” that would require all Americans have health insurance and would raise taxes on wealthy Americans. Like Clinton's plan,you can keep your own Health Ins. and doctors you trust..relax

It's easy to say there will be no new bureaucracy, but, who is going to force me to purchase insurance (don't have any, don't want any!) and who will enforce the mandate when I don't comply? The local police? The FBI? or some new bureaucracy (possibly part of the IRS that is already bloated due to the unbelievable amount of rules and regulations?) Been said before, the devil's in the details.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

So BAU, please clarify... are you saying that you really like the current health care system and want it to stay as it is or would you say that you are for a Libertarian approach like the link to the essay by Ron Paul that wkmac posted?

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul175.html

"We can hardly expect more government to cure our current health care woes. As with all goods and services, medical care is best delivered by the free market, with competition and financial incentives keeping costs down. When patients spend their own money for health care, they have a direct incentive to negotiate lower costs with their doctor. When government controls health care, all cost incentives are lost."

I'll take the current system over socialized health care any day. The current system isn't perfect but it would work much better if people would get their priorities straight. People need to take better care of themselves and decide if having four cars and a bunch of gadgets to play with is really more important than buying health insurance or starting a health savings account. As far as poor people goes....they need to get jobs. There is no excuse for an able bodied American to not find a job. Two jobs if neccessary. If the job they find doesn't offer health insurance then they need to put money away for medical bills. One thing really bugs me about lower income people in America. They seem to get just as fat as anyone in other tax brackets don't they? Hmmm...... That's not poor. That is just lazy. And now Hillary Commie Clinton wants the rest of us to pay for their idleness?

 

[beatupbrown]

We have a health insurance crisis what part of that do some you folks not get?

Big arrow up its not the lower income its middles class.Bt making statements like that tells me you are not informed on the subject please research more watch more.
Published on Sunday, November 16, 2003 by the New York Times
For Middle Class, Health Insurance Becomes a Luxury
by Stephanie Strom


The majority of the uninsured are neither poor by official standards nor unemployed. They are accountants like Mr. Thornton, employees of small businesses, civil servants, single working mothers and those working part time or on contract.
"Now it's hitting people who look like you and me, dress like you and me, drive nice cars and live in nice houses but can't afford $1,000 a month for health insurance for their families," said R. King Hillier, director of legislative relations for Harris County, which includes Houston.
Paying for health insurance is becoming a middle-class problem, and not just here. "After paying for health insurance, you take home less than minimum wage," says a poster in New York City subways sponsored by Working Today, a nonprofit agency that offers health insurance to independent contractors in New York. "Welcome to middle-class poverty." In Southern California, 70,000 supermarket workers have been on strike for five weeks over plans to cut their health benefits.
Big arrow up its not the lower income its middles class.Bt making statements like that tells me you are not informed on the subject please research more watch more .

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

"Now it's hitting people who look like you and me, dress like you and me, drive nice cars and live in nice houses but can't afford $1,000 a month for health insurance for their families," said R. King Hillier, director of legislative relations for Harris County, which includes Houston.

Umm...if they are driving nice cars and nice houses, which they probably can't afford either, then I'd say they have their priorities mixed up. Maybe they should stick their heads in a bucket of ice water and maybe they'll wake up and realize that some things are more important than "keeping up with the Jones's" and maybe they'll start taking some personal responsibility and start spending some money on health insurance before they go out and take out another loan for another car.

The majority of the uninsured are neither poor by official standards nor unemployed. They are accountants like Mr. Thornton, employees of small businesses, civil servants, single working mothers and those working part time or on contract.

How about getting better jobs? Or second jobs? Part-time isn't enough?...well, then find a full-time job! It's a simple concept. So, you see it's not I that is "uninformed" on the subject. It's the people in this country that have become just a tad to entitlement happy that are uninformed.

 

[Colorado]

Hey there diesel96,

When I stated that I wanted somebody to work on illegal immigration before healthcare, it was a simple comment that there are way, way WAY more important issues at hand.

As for UPS being a left wing organization...yep...far left. How anti-American, anti-Christian, anti-moral can an organization be than to offer health care to same sex partnerships??? I NEVER said anything about Brown Cafe being left wing, just UPS. It is very apparent that Brown Cafe leans to the right. I would fully agree with your statement of "Brown Conservative"

"But when you bring your Jerry Falwell anti-gay, anti-left rants and try to shove that Christian far right religious views down everybody throats, isn't that a form of socialism" What the heck was that about? A personal attack I take? "And remember,Seperation of church and state." Ummm, again, what the heck was that about? Just more personal attacks I suppose.

So, maybe here's how it goes. One of the largest corporations offers healthcare to same sex partners. Other company's follow. Then when the left gets elected, it becomes legal to marry as same sex. Oh, but wait...what's next? Maybe you could marry your cousin, sister, brother...oh, hold on, what about your dog...or goat. THIS UPS SAME SEX HEALTHCARE ISSUE SHOULD HAVE STOPPED BEFORE IT STARTED!

Any idea why Rome fell? Welcome to Rome. And thanks for your imput diesel96. You must be quite an anti-American atheist.

 

[brazenbrown]

So, maybe here's how it goes. One of the largest corporations offers healthcare to same sex partners. Other company's follow. Then when the left gets elected, it becomes legal to marry as same sex. Oh, but wait...what's next? Maybe you could marry your cousin, sister, brother...oh, hold on, what about your dog...or goat. THIS UPS SAME SEX HEALTHCARE ISSUE SHOULD HAVE STOPPED BEFORE IT STARTED!

Any idea why Rome fell? Welcome to Rome. And thanks for your imput diesel96. You must be quite an anti-American atheist.

You give anyone on the right a bad name when you start spewing crap like this!! This forum is meant to be a place to debate and exchange ideas.

My views are a mixture of conservative and Libertarian and most of the time I don't agree with diesel's liberal points of view but I sure don't agree with the trailer park attack tactics you used here.

Instead of telling people there going to be screwing all kinds of animals and their cousins next...why not share some facts!!

Now on to business...


Rome will fall if we don't stop the illegals and fix the border yesterday!!
I voted for Bush twice unfortunately he has been a big dissapointment with regards to fixing the illegal problem and he even tried to pass an amnesty bill earlier this year. What's he thinking...We're fighting a war over there so we don't have to fight it here...all the while they can just waltz across the border and set up camp????

Anyway back on topic!

THE DARK SIDE OF HILLARY CARE

In her program, she speaks of how health care is the right of every "American" -- but she has a rather expansive definition of "American." In 2005, Hillary co-sponsored legislation in the United States Senate to offer free health insurance, under the State Child Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) to the children of illegal immigrants who have lived in the United States for five years. So, those who have dodged the immigration cops for five years successfully would be rewarded not only with legal status and a path to citizenship, but with immediate free health care for their children.

Indeed, when Democrats and liberals speak of the 50,000,000 uninsured Americans, more than one fifth of those are illegal immigrants.

Would Americans like to reward those whose only connection to our country is that they flouted our laws to come here with free health insurance for themselves and their children? Doubtless Hillary knows the answer is no, so she is determined to hide that aspect of her plan from the public.

Now isn't that nice!

In effect, her plan would turn "insurance" into "subsidy." The concept of insurance is that one pays a relatively low premium to guard against catastrophic expenses that are outside of our ability to meet financially. But Hillary's program would really be nothing more than a cash transfer from the healthy to the sick, not an insurance program at all.

Finally, Hillary seeks to finance the system by ending tax breaks for the wealthy, by which she means any household with $250,000 or more in income. Never mind that she has spent that money several times over. But why use income taxes to finance her system? Why not do what Democrats and Republicans are now pushing in Congress -- to finance it by raising cigarette taxes? That way we get a double impact: higher tobacco prices cut smoking, particularly among teenagers, and reduce health costs and the revenues pay for her expansion of the system. The current Congress is passing legislation to raise cigarette taxes 61 cents per pack to pay for a $35 billion expansion of the State Child Health Insurance Program. Why not raise them $2 per pack to raise the $110 billion Hillary says her health care proposal will need?

In selling her program, Hillary seems to imply that she was under the hypnotic control of her advisers (presumably Ira Magaziner) in 1993 when she designed her previous health care reform. Now she says she is in charge. "I'm the decision maker now," she told The New York Times. "I have a plan that is 100 percent my plan." But what was the 1993 initiative but her plan, concocted in secret and foisted in toto on a Congress which wouldn't pass it?
Now she says she would not "have approached [health care reform] in the same way" as she did in 1993. Now she will be informed by "a greater dose of humility and empathy and understanding of what it takes to get things done in our political system."
That and a determination to conceal the true implications of her proposal until after she is elected.

Makes you feel warm and fuzzy don't it!!

 

[traveler]

Just and interesting side note on illegal immigration in the USA. In todays paper (I'm in Vancouver, BC Canada today) it seems there is some worry about Mexicans migrating from Florida and crossing the border to Canada at Windsor. They all seem to have asylum papers filled out, supposedly by a non-profit group in Naples Florida. The worry is that if even 5% of the US illegals cross the border the Canadian health care system will not be able to keep up.

Welcome Canada, to today's USA immigration problem!

 

[DS]

I've found this thread very informative and I can see how complicated an issue its is in the USA.With the huge population difference between the states and Canada there are bound to be a multitude of opinions about the best way to make things better for everybody involved.I am not an expert in the way any government utilizes thier tax money,but I thought I'd point out a few things some of you don't realize.Firstly I agree that our system is not perfect.There is often issues with wait times and even though our government is toying with the idea of privatization in our system,it would still be paid for with no out of pocket expense to anyone who holds valid citizenship.Furthermore our system is run not federally but provicincially.In other words,if you had a similar system,it would be up to each state to guarantee each citizen had adequate health care if they needed it.Our taxes are higher for things that could be considered
luxuries.Here in Ontario a pkg of ciggarettes costs about $10.00,a case
of 24 beers is around $40.00,most of which is tax.
Traveler...I've been to Vancouver and although its a beautiful city,try going downtown on the day the welfare cheques come in and watch all the happy junkies sitting around drinking coke and busking.
The government of Canada is good at taxing everything. PST, GST,property and gasoline,but they seem have a hard time appropriating it to the proper people.All in all,our healthcare system works for the average Canadian,subsidized by the ones with bad habits.

 

[av8torntn]

I am not an expert in the way any government utilizes thier tax money,but

This is a huge difference in America and other countries. Most of us do not look at taxes as their money, but more as our money they are spending. Our government was intended to be a limited government not a take care of everything government. Some of us still want it that way, but every year we seem to lose a little more of the fight.

 

[traveler]

This is a huge difference in America and other countries. Most of us do not look at taxes as their money, but more as our money they are spending. Our government was intended to be a limited government not a take care of everything government. Some of us still want it that way, but every year we seem to lose a little more of the fight.

You are so correct. Some us do still want a limited government, not one that takes care of everything.

 

[diesel96]

It's easy to say there will be no new bureaucracy, but, who is going to force me to purchase insurance (don't have any, don't want any!) and who will enforce the mandate when I don't comply? The local police? The FBI? or some new bureaucracy (possibly part of the IRS that is already bloated due to the unbelievable amount of rules and regulations?) Been said before, the devil's in the details.

Looking at this with a Libertarian view, you should be able to refuse the right for Healthcare, but god forbid you get seriously ill, (unless you have a rich Uncle) don't coming running to the gov't or taxpayers to bail you out from getting medical care or going bankrupt.
But those who share your view who have kids, they (the kids)have a right to healthcare coverage "enfoced"or"mandated" and have proper medical and preventative care unlike their Libertarian parents...BTW you forgot to mention HRS.

ColoradoRe: Clinton unveils mandatory health care insurance plan

Hey there diesel96,

When I stated that I wanted somebody to work on illegal immigration before healthcare, it was a simple comment that there are way, way WAY more important issues at hand.
Some of us believe Healthcare is just as important if not more.

As for UPS being a left wing organization...yep...far left. How anti-American, anti-Christian, anti-moral can an organization be than to offer health care to same sex partnerships??? I NEVER said anything about Brown Cafe being left wing, just UPS. It is very apparent that Brown Cafe leans to the right. I would fully agree with your statement of "Brown Conservative"

"But when you bring your Jerry Falwell anti-gay, anti-left rants and try to shove that Christian far right religious views down everybody throats, isn't that a form of socialism" What the heck was that about? A personal attack I take? "And remember,Seperation of church and state." Ummm, again, what the heck was that about? Just more personal attacks I suppose.
Talking about personal attacks, your first post in BC slams UPS and Gay people as if their 2nd class citizens or sub-human. Just reminded me of Falwell tactics. I suppose you think the gays caused 9/11 also.
So, maybe here's how it goes. One of the largest corporations offers healthcare to same sex partners. Other company's follow. Then when the left gets elected, it becomes legal to marry as same sex. Oh, but wait...what's next? Maybe you could marry your cousin, sister, brother...oh, hold on, what about your dog...or goat. THIS UPS SAME SEX HEALTHCARE ISSUE SHOULD HAVE STOPPED BEFORE IT STARTED!

Your homophobia is over the top, even for straight guys such as myself.

Any idea why Rome fell? Welcome to Rome. And thanks for your imput diesel96. You must be quite an anti-American atheist.
Your welcome...I didn't realize defending US citizens (gay or straight) and having human compassion is anti-American and Anti-Religous.

I'll take the current system over socialized health care any day

Five years from now, average health insurance premium may well exceed a car payment and a mortgage payment combined together.
BTW..It's way more than $150/month as you suggested on a previous post.

Umm...if they are driving nice cars and nice houses, which they probably can't afford either, then I'd say they have their priorities mixed up. Maybe they should stick their heads in a bucket of ice water and maybe they'll wake up and realize that some things are more important than "keeping up with the Jones's" and maybe they'll start taking some personal responsibility and start spending some money on health insurance before they go out and take out another loan for another car
How about getting better jobs? Or second jobs? Part-time isn't enough?...well, then find a full-time job! It's a simple concept. So, you see it's not I that is "uninformed" on the subject. It's the people in this country that have become just a tad to entitlement happy that are uninformed.

Big, why do you make such generalizations about people. It's a known fact most uninsured are working middle class people and self employed. Why should the current skyrockting cost of Healthcare Ins take away from their family time, or College savings, retirement savings..ect
Besides the stress of single parent households, most families now-a-days both parents have to work just to get buy. If your never home properly raising your family working 2/3 jobs to pay health Ins. don't those unsupervised kids become a burden to society. Cause and effect. Wouldn't a simpler solution be a afforded Public health choice plan.

What makes you think raising taxes on the wealthy will do us any good?

Not raise taxes on the wealthy but end Republican backed tax cuts.

The Federal government is already raking in record breaking tax revenues due to the Bush tax cuts. If things keep going the way they are we will start to have a budget surplus in the years ahead to help us pay down the national debt.

The national debt is different from the Federal deficit...Debt is the accumulated deficits over the years,,the deficit is the amount spent over the amount we took in.The more the Gov't spends over what they budget themselves, the more they have to borrow and the more drastic our debt becomes.

Why would we want to stop that? Not to mention what you suggest is really just wealth redistribution, which wreaks of socialism. Luckily for us Hillary is not electable so her plan is not something we have to worry about. I just hate seeing people being fooled into believing her plan is what she says it is.

Again not wealth redistrubution,cutting tax cuts,implimenting a medicare style public plan(for those who choose it)creating competition and lowering costs across the board including pharmcueticals which pays for the social expenditures. Why do you resisters want to be in bed with pharamcuetical and insurance companies for?

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Five years from now, average health insurance premium may well exceed a car payment and a mortgage payment combined together.
BTW..It's way more than $150/month as you suggested on a previous post.

I've seen the prices as high as $300.00/month and as low as $100.00/month. It's called shopping around. That's the free market at work.

Big, why do you make such generalizations about people. It's a known fact most uninsured are working middle class people and self employed. Why should the current skyrockting cost of Healthcare Ins take away from their family time, or College savings, retirement savings..ect
Besides the stress of single parent households, most families now-a-days both parents have to work just to get buy. If your never home properly raising your family working 2/3 jobs to pay health Ins. don't those unsupervised kids become a burden to society. Cause and effect. Wouldn't a simpler solution be a afforded Public health choice plan.

There is no generalization. It's rather simple.....buy ANOTHER car or provide health insurance for your self and your family? Hmm....tough one. If someone can supposedly fork over and extra $350.00-$550.00/month for a new vehicle than they could have afforded to pay between $100.00-$300.00/month for health insurance. Maybe they should drop cable tv or internet. Again....it's all about priority. Spending between $100.00-$300.00/month for the insurance wouldn't require both parents to be working two or three jobs resulting in the kids being "unsupervised" if their parents would get their acts together and forget about having another car, or other amenities, and concentrate on what's important. Now THAT is cause and effect.

 

[beatupbrown]

Around 47 million people in the U.S. don't have health insurance, and medical bills are related in some way to half of all bankruptcies. Affordable health care is a prominent part in presidential campaigns from both parties.
The number of people leaving the U.S. for medical tourism is growing, Dr. Kevin Schulman, a health economist at Duke University, said. For example, in India, a new heart hospital charges $2,000 for heart bypass surgery, he said.
Besides lower costs, foreign hospitals can also offer excellent care, Schulman said. "We think the quality of surgery, actually, in France or in western Europe is very high," he said.
In health systems, like those in Canada, France and the U.K., care is treated as a right, instead of commodity, but long waits for some tests and treatments can be a problem.
http://www.wral.com/lifestyles/healthteam/story/1847381/

 

[moreluck]

BAU.... In CA. to find medical coverage for $350 a month, you'd have to be low 30's, in perfect health and it would be MINIMAL coverage, no optical, no dental.

I know some ex-UPS'ers (those that quit in 2000) don't buy anything except the major medical and they pay for their doctor visits and prescriptions etc.

You guys mention $100 to $300 a month......in CA. it's more like $1000 to $2000 a month(for a couple) and that's being in a "group" and does not include dental or optical. (PPO)

Depending where you live, just be realistic when figuring the cost of medical insurance for yourselves.

 

[traveler]

moreluck,

You have that right. For my wife and I in Florida the cost would be over $3,000 per year, no dental or optical. We are fortunately in very good health but both have pre-existing conditions which raises the price for us. I believe the best you could do for $100 anywhere in any health is one of the so-called discount cards which are almost useless.

 

[cheryl]

Moreluck is correct, we're in CA and insurance for our 3 person family costs over a thousand a month. Our 20 year old daughter is even on a high deductible policy. It's ridiculous...