ethics in management

[tieguy]

Are you suggesting that management and union would act in collusion to get rid of a worker due to perceived wrongdoing or a personality conflict?
Pretty much shoots the concept of "ethics" of the union and the company right out of the air doesn't it?
BUT WAIT!!
In the "trentonNJ" thread I ask tieguy, not once but twice, what does he suggest we do about an out of control management as apparently reported in trenton. Correct me if I am mistaken but I believe he stated I should use the grievance and arbitration process as intended.
I have been to panel and deadlock. I didn't take my dice. We used someone else's.
Between the hand shaking, back patting and bottom petting, I saw cases lost that should have been won and vice versa.

fact is you consistently give advice to others to violate the contract by going outside the contractually mandated grievance processes. Whenever challenged you allege some made up mumbo jumbo about corruption you have seen. If you can pick and choose when you will obey the contract then why can't management?

 

[tieguy]

Are you suggesting that management and union would act in collusion to get rid of a worker due to perceived wrongdoing or a personality conflict?
Pretty much shoots the concept of "ethics" of the union and the company right out of the air doesn't it?
BUT WAIT!!
In the "trentonNJ" thread I ask tieguy, not once but twice, what does he suggest we do about an out of control management as apparently reported in trenton. Correct me if I am mistaken but I believe he stated I should use the grievance and arbitration process as intended.
I have been to panel and deadlock. I didn't take my dice. We used someone else's.
Between the hand shaking, back patting and bottom petting, I saw cases lost that should have been won and vice versa.

you continously give advice and make excuses against following the contract. If you can choose not to follow it why can't management.

 

[tieguy]

I take this as a huge compliment, the accusation you're making anyway. The fact UPS Lifer stated that I couldn't possibly get away with what I post put a real feather in my hat. Now you've bought a ticket on that train as well, two tenured members of management who can't mentally come to grips with the fact there's someone like me. It speaks volumes about the mindset at UPS and the current state of the Teamsters union.

I don't for a minute doubt that you are proud of being the coward you are. I have no issues with coming to grips with your existence. Every organization has a few rotten apples trying to stink up the barrel. I'm sure you look good parading through south philly with those feathers hanging from your hat.

 

[DS]

Over the years, I saw Union members, supervisors and managers fired at once that never came back if the sin was bad enough. On the other hand, I saw a lot of drivers and inside workers that got on the bad side of management and wouldn't have kept their jobs if it wasn't for the union. And, a lot of them were good workers, but just couldn't ignore the BS that management kept giving them because of personality conflicts. There are a lot of sups and managers that aren't fair and don't treat people well.

true but highly understated
its ups's biggest problem,and they trudge along stupidly trying to run a delivery company from the lounge at the stock exchange.Its like if ups was one big prison,if we get out of line,we will be shot by the ones in the tower.
As Tony said the personality conflicts can make or break a young man trying to do his best.The least best syndrome has taken its place as a way to invigorate,and it does not work.

 

[705red]

Red,
I paid for my land before I worked at UPS.
I designed and built my home.
Drove nails, laid tile, moved dirt and what ever else it took, until 2:00am and got up at 5:45 am, to drive a 110 mile commute to work a full day at UPS.
I never missed a work day in 21 1/2 yrs.
Can you say the same?(nope)
Your contract had Jack to do with my land and home.

So, if you think you can punk me with your rhetoric about walking over me, then you better be very tall, because I am still standing.
I would never ask, or depend on, someone like you to defend me.
You have never stood on your own two feet earning a living without a union to keep you propped up.
I have.
My work record at UPS is my defense, if that isn't good enough, I will move along with no regrets.
In closing,
If you see me dying on the street, Red, I would advise you to stay away from me as far as possible.
Never know what one will do in dying tremors.

Sat i only hope that if we ever meet that you are at 100% and not already on deaths bed, this way there will be no excuses from your side. At least you have good medical that was negioated by the Teamsters, scab!

 

[satellitedriver]

Having worked for a company that it's employees are represented by the union for your whole career at UPS, you have no idea really what you have been protected from. For example, in Texas(a right to work state) the employer doesn't need a "good reason" to fire you as long as they do not violate your Constitutional rights. WITH the union you also have contractual rights to protect you from harassment, from personality conflicts and other unjust(but not illegal) work conditions.
If the new center manager decided you were being dishonest in signing your name for a customers package and taking it home for safe keeping until the customer came back from vacation, you could/probably would be fired. The union would at least have a chance to save your job, a court of law would probably not even hear the case.
You said" I could make far more money than I make at UPS, but, I will not make the trade off of leaving my land and my home.". If I understand what you mean, it's that you would have to relocate to another area to match or beat what you make at UPS. If that is correct then, yeah, the union negotiated contracts have allowed you to keep you land and home and exercise your choice to stay where you are.
Have you even been told by a management person " IF you don't like it, you can quit."? If you have, you probably own the fact that you still have a job to the unseen protection of the union. Unless you are prefect, you have made mistakes that you could have been legally fired for but with the union there are contractual rules that keep that from even being an issue.
In the debates that Tie and those two FedEx guys the question arose that the two jobs were essentially the same and they are(with different levels of load size, yadda yadda). UPS Drivers make roughly a third more than Fedex couriers, is it because their average package size is less than ours? No, the difference is in the union contract. Then there are the benefits that are negotiated also. FedEx pays what they do to keep the union out, not from of the goodness of their hearts.
My point here is that union does much more for you than you give them credit for. Is the union prefect? no. Do I wear the union collar? not hardly. Do I see a need for the union when it comes to dealing with UPS? Damn right I do.

That's a lot of questions for me to answer.
I will try and answer them one by one.
First off my whole career started at the age of 15. I have been on my own since the age of 17 and I did not start working at UPS until I was 33.
I have lived and worked in Texas all my life. I know my worker rights in Texas.
Since I indirect packages to my home for my neighbors, using all the correct procedures mandated by UPS and have the customers permission to do so, I have little worry over a new center manager reviewing my files.
To make far more money, I would have to relocate. To make the same or better, I could stay here. I chose to stay here, where my options are open and continue to live the lifestyle I chose for myself. Selfish, yes, as we all are.
This will probably blow your mind.
No manager at UPS has ever even came close to saying to me,"If you don't like it you can quit.". I have been thru 13 center manager's and at least 50 on road sup's. I am treated with respect and I give it back, in like kind.
Fedx people make more per delivery than we do, percentage wise.
The biggest complaint I hear from Upser's is that they throw too much work at us.
Teamsters demand higher wages and the simple law of economics demands we produce more to cover the increase wages.
So, the teamsters can toot their horn about being paid so well, but has the right to complain when that wage has to be justified and keep the company profitable?
Back to my career and your closing argument,
I have worked at three different union jobs, Electrical Brotherhood, Steelworkers and the teamsters.
I also worked in non-union jobs.
In the union jobs, my skill and drive did not count. Only seniority, basically meaning wait your turn.
In the non-union jobs my skills, ability and drive counted for everything. I was rewarded in pay and position.
I am not saying I am better than anyone else. I just try and do my level best daily and if it isn't good enough for the company that pays me then I will leave with no hard feelings.
In closing,
I will never give the teamsters union any credit,or support, for what they do for themselves, in the name of protecting me.
It's late, I hope I addressed all of the issues.

 

[705red]

pretty harsh. I would never walk over anyones dying body including careys.


The point is hes proud for crossing the picket line and 2 hard headed to admit he screwed up back then. Every chance he gets he takes a dig at the teamsters, when he has not earned that right because hes a scab and has withdrawn from the teamsters.

Time to stop and think. If you believe your support of your union justifies this mindset then maybe just maybe its time to rethink your position.

Tie its not an us verses them mindset, i understand that you are in management and you have to do what you have to, i might not agree with everything that you do but there is some respect because its your job. I also know that alot of people are upset with the teamsters rather if its not being represented properly to like danny said intimidation to join in right to work states. Its easy to get fed up and give up or you can stand up for whats right and assist in fixing the problem from within. If theres locals that arent holding there own vote them out it can be done, if you dont like how the pension is being invested vote someone else in. But when you scab and withdraw from the teamsters you have no voting right on any of this so you become a burden more than a solution.

Ultimately I think we all belong to a much higher union of humanity whatever your spiritual beliefs may entail.

Tie i have no feelings or emotions for people that cant fight a good fight. You want to be treated as a man than act like one, dont snail across a picket line on all 4s so that you wont be seen because your upset. Grow a set and band your brothers together to fix your problems. Man doesnt piss on his fellow man just to benefit himself unless he only cares about himself and this is evident by reading his posts.

 

[satellitedriver]

Sat i only hope that if we ever meet that you are at 100% and not already on deaths bed, this way there will be no excuses from your side. At least you have good medical that was negioated by the Teamsters, scab!

When you step over my dying body, I promise I will not try and sneak a peek under your skirt as you skip on down the road.
I am only running at 80% now. It isn't fun getting older.
Maybe I should spend more time in the office, like you do, instead of doing what I am paid to do.
No quarters are asked for and none will be given.
I take your post as a personal threat.
Good thing that we will never meet.
Good day, sir.

 

[trplnkl]

. WITH the union you also have contractual rights to protect you from harassment, from personality conflicts and other unjust(but not illegal) work conditions.

I think its actually easier to fire a union employee then a non-union employee.

Think about it. The contractual arbitration process protects the company from lawsuits. I fire you. You go to panel. Panel agrees. Arbitrator agrees. Powerfull defense material that the company was just.

If I fire you and you have no grievance process then we go straight to the courts. Even if the company wins it gets to be expensive fighting every case in court.

Management also has a grievance process with an impartial arbitrator at the end of the process.

It takes an act of god to fire a non-union clerical person. And a deadly sin to fire a management person.

I personally think you would see less terminations if you did not have a union. How many discharges have you seen over the years where somone gets discharged and then agrees to accept time served as a suspension.

You are far from protected as a union person. If anything we fire more of you then we would if you had no grievance process.

Oh whine, whine, whine. UPS has deep pockets to pay for lawyers, the employee has his last paycheck and what he has in the bank.

Tie, you may be able to sell that to some, but I aint buying it.

You've GOT to be kidding me? I have seen people fired on trumped up charges that had little to do with the truth and got their jobs back. Why? Because the union stayed the course and fought for them and won in the end. As far as the agreeing to return with a suspension as time served, agreed that does happen in many cases. Why? Because UPS makes an offer that ends the uncertain outcome. It's kinda like a "bird in the hand". The union rep tells the 'terminated" that the out come of an arbitration is not guaranteed and could go against them. With some of these cases going for a year or more, it is no surprise to me that people take the "offer". One of UPS's tactics is to starve 'em out, you know it's true and so does everyone else.
I saw two identical cases go a full year and the company offer came as they were in Atlanta (I think) waiting to get into the arbitrator's office to start deciding the case. The offer, full back pay. full credit for seniority, back pay for holiday and vacation pay skipped( they also got to take time off for the vaca's they missed), pension restored to the point it would have been if nothing had happened, in short they (the employees) got everything. This is the total opposite of an emplo yee accepting a "time served" offer. The fact is/was the company fired them in anger and attempted intimidation, with out a justifiable reason. The company knew they could not win but didn't want it to go in the books as a decision by the arbitrator.
If the company is just in firing someone, they should stay fired, union or no union. But what about the times the comapny is NOT just? Again, unless a workers legal rights have been violated Lawyer Dagget probably can't save their job and there sure would never be a "time served" offer to consider.

 

[stringerman85]

. WITH the union you also have contractual rights to protect you from harassment, from personality conflicts and other unjust(but not illegal) work conditions.


Oh whine, whine, whine. UPS has deep pockets to pay for lawyers, the employee has his last paycheck and what he has in the bank.

By the way what in the world does UPS do with all that extra billions of dollars that sit around?? Their deep pockets could pay for a lot of extra crap, Just don't....Love the corporate people

 

[dannyboy]

Tie

Not to jump to Tricks defense, but I personally have seen many times where hourly were at the panel and quiet deals were made. Tradeoffs if you will. To protect several sometimes one must be sacrificed. While not always fair to the one, the others benifit from this type of action.

Not hearsay, but personal experience in this matter. So please dont degrade the conversation saying it does not happen. And I know it speaks volumes about the ethics in both management and union.

As for following the contract when it comes to righting wrongs, I would expect that the company stand would be follow the contract and file file file. But that is what I would expect the company to say. After all, it is the company that asked the union to come in and represent the workers. You yourself have mentioned why.

Now, why would the company set up a grievance proceedure that they pretty much control? To control the outcome. There are no wild cards (well maybe someone like Carey) an the company pretty much controls the situtation. But of course, they let the union strut around with victory on their lips, but those of us that have seen behind the scenes know better. Kinda like the emperor and his clothes.

I would rather take my chances on a serious issue with a labor lawyer than a business agent.

d

 

[tieguy]

Tie i have no feelings or emotions for people that cant fight a good fight. You want to be treated as a man than act like one, dont snail across a picket line on all 4s so that you wont be seen because your upset. Grow a set and band your brothers together to fix your problems. Man doesnt piss on his fellow man just to benefit himself unless he only cares about himself and this is evident by reading his posts.

Red,

I can't see how someone who took his position is not a man. Everyone knows what grief you get when you cross the line. It seems to me he showed a lot of courage crosssing that line.With that said why did he do it? Seems he took a strong position because he felt he was not represented correctly? If so then he took action that he is legally entitled to take to voice his displeasure with the direction of the union. If so then isn't he more of a man then all those goons who post here whining about the union without doing anything?

 

[tieguy]

.Tie, you may be able to sell that to some, but I aint buying it.

You've GOT to be kidding me? I have seen people fired on trumped up charges that had little to do with the truth and got their jobs back. Why?

proves my point. Lets say we have some divison manager that gets his/her gut into a case. At worse it might cost us backpay with the grievance process where a courtroom could easily cost much more. Or we discharge and bring back in a couple of weeks with no back pay.

hell tex you a perty smart fella. figure out why all those companies including ups are putting in grievance process with an arbitrator at the end of the process? The grievance process gives us a means to fire people without really losing them. We don't want to lose them we just want to punish them. Or if we really want to fire them then we build a heck of a case through the grievance process. When the arbitrator finally agrees with a discharge then you have a case that will withstand the scutiny of the courtroom.

The grievance process is awesome. It allows management the opportunity to use the words "your fired" a lot more then we would if everything was going straight to the courts....

 

[tieguy]

Tie

Not to jump to Tricks defense, but I personally have seen many times where hourly were at the panel and quiet deals were made. Tradeoffs if you will. To protect several sometimes one must be sacrificed. While not always fair to the one, the others benifit from this type of action.

Not hearsay, but personal experience in this matter. So please dont degrade the conversation saying it does not happen. And I know it speaks volumes about the ethics in both management and union.

d

Danny,

i don't doubt those things go on. My point was not to dispute those. My point is that trick speaks out of both sides of his mouth. He cries loudly about the company not following the contract. But when he gives advice he often gives advice to others telling them to go outside the contract himself. I've seen many over the years that hold the contract up as the holy grail , complain loudly about management not following it who then circumvent it every chance they get. Tricks advice often emulates that example.

 

[Griff]

The grievance process is awesome. It allows management the opportunity to use the words "your fired" a lot more then we would if everything was going straight to the courts....

An idiot gets to feel important for a few seconds. How magical those few moments must be for you. I can't imagine being that devoid of purpose and a brain. Share some more stories about what makes you get up every morning and come in to UPS. Perhaps to laugh behind the door of your cell at a driver dying or being seriously injured? You're what is wrong with this company, you get a thrill out of disciplining people and you actively seek that high. It's a small world and playing games with people's livelihood is a very dangerous game.

 

[Braveheart]

Show me a long term manager who is ethical, honest, compassionate and competent...and I will show you a 52-year-old on car supervisor who has no hope of getting promoted. Those guys are the best ones to work for, they have accepted their fate and are just putting in their time. The worst ones are the climbers who will do anything to generate the numbers that will get them promoted.

Hit the nail on the head!

 

[Braveheart]

I do believe that because the stocks went public, the problem increased. This is a prevalent patern in this type of move. This does not change the facts that we (MGMT, Employee and Union) should do our best as a team and move forward. UPS has a great benefit package, and there are a lot of jobs out there that pay a lot less and you get the same personalities.
UPS is my second job, my first pays about the same but there is a lot of things that are covered under my title, and there is always that statement "Other duties as assigned". Its a job, and will be what WE make it.

I have seen no less than 3 center managers and 8 on roads quit UPS in the last few years. They all said it was UPS mangement that sent them running for the hills, not the employees. Sure they said there were a few that were not on their Christmas list but on the whole 90-95% were OK.

They were sick of all the lies and unethical acts by their fellow managers. They also said that upper managers as well as lower ones were the ones who made things worse than they had to be.

 

[tieguy]

An idiot gets to feel important for a few seconds. .

congrats on your feelings of importance. Hope it translates into a more positive outlook on life for you.

 

[tieguy]

I have seen no less than 3 center managers and 8 on roads quit UPS in the last few years. They all said it was UPS mangement that sent them running for the hills, not the employees. Sure they said there were a few that were not on their Christmas list but on the whole 90-95% were OK.

They were sick of all the lies and unethical acts by their fellow managers. They also said that upper managers as well as lower ones were the ones who made things worse than they had to be.

As a manager I often hear complaints from my people complaining about the slackers who don't carry their weight. I also hear them complain about co-workers who lie, cheat and steal the system to get what the want. Should I then decide this complaining proves that all drivers are thus dishonest or should I look at them as exceptions.

 

[dannyboy]

Tie

He didnt say all of them lied and stole, what he did say was

They also said that upper managers as well as lower ones were the ones who made things worse than they had to be.

and that contributed to the management members leaving. Which I might add, I have seen as well.

Not all drivers clump all sups together. But many sups do fit a mold until you get to know them better. and in some cases you need to get to know them much better before they break out of the mold.

d