UPS Lifer
Well-Known Member
I think maybe a lot of the turmoil is in the 'wording'.
The gay couples can have the rights, just don't call their union a "marriage". Just call it something else......like, life partnership.
Could it be as simple as that?1
I was married 35 years ago in a church with God as my witness and I believe in the sanctity of marriage....35 years ago I would have probably said that same sex partners should not be allowed to marry. I don't conform to those beliefs now. I personally don't believe that God would not allow same sex partners to be married. I have seen straight people make a mockery out of marriage and also the vows they took. On the other hand, i have seen same sex partners who are just as committed to their relationship as my wife and I are.....so why not allow them to be legally married? Why are we more special than gay people?
We are ALL equal and our society should learn to except that fact.
Maybe, people are more fearful of what they really don't understand. So...they feel that they need to protect others from these "evil folks".
Let's take it one step further.....what about gay couples that have children?
I bet there are some interesting beliefs on that subject!
blue efficacy
Well-Known Member
I think their opinion is a little more valid and informed than yours.
DS
Fenderbender
For the most part all you Americans label things way too much for my liking.You seem to be all for liberal thinking when it is good for you,yet against it when it comes to the rights of people different than you.
After all, liberal means open minded and although a lot of you get it,
most of you are old school ,do what you like as long as it does not affect me.One other thing that bothers me is your right to bear arms.Every day is like an episode of gunsmoke.Why does the greatest country in the world need everyone to own a gun?What makes you any better than Columbia or Brazil?The right to kill anyone you want because you can.
I know I`m going to take some flak from this but know what?Its my opinion and I'm entitled to it.An 11 year old kid just took a bullet here
the other day from a gun that was smuggled from the good ole USA.
As far as gays go , they deserve every right us white folk have.If they want to get married,why not?They pay taxes, they deserve the breaks that go with it.
After all, liberal means open minded and although a lot of you get it,
most of you are old school ,do what you like as long as it does not affect me.One other thing that bothers me is your right to bear arms.Every day is like an episode of gunsmoke.Why does the greatest country in the world need everyone to own a gun?What makes you any better than Columbia or Brazil?The right to kill anyone you want because you can.
I know I`m going to take some flak from this but know what?Its my opinion and I'm entitled to it.An 11 year old kid just took a bullet here
the other day from a gun that was smuggled from the good ole USA.
As far as gays go , they deserve every right us white folk have.If they want to get married,why not?They pay taxes, they deserve the breaks that go with it.
I was married 35 years ago in a church with God as my witness and I believe in the sanctity of marriage....35 years ago I would have probably said that same sex partners should not be allowed to marry. I don't conform to those beliefs now. I personally don't believe that God would not allow same sex partners to be married. I have seen straight people make a mockery out of marriage and also the vows they took. On the other hand, i have seen same sex partners who are just as committed to their relationship as my wife and I are.....so why not allow them to be legally married? Why are we more special than gay people?
We are ALL equal and our society should learn to except that fact.
Maybe, people are more fearful of what they really don't understand. So...they feel that they need to protect others from these "evil folks".
Let's take it one step further.....what about gay couples that have children?
I bet there are some interesting beliefs on that subject!
Wow, UPSlifer you just hit me right between the eyes. I hope and pray that I am interpreting you correctly. I and many others on this sight hold you in high esteem. When you refer to God, is that the same God out of the Bible? I ask this in all do respect. My intentions here are to be respectful and polite in the exchange of ideas. Lifer, if I understand you correctly, you are now for gay marriage. To you being gay is OK. If that is what you believe, Im truly shocked. The God of the Holy Bible does not change. He is the same as in the beginning as in the end. Society changes and that is what is happening here in America and the world..
People misunderstand God now a days. Read the old testament folks. God gets angry at sin. Remember Sodum and Gormah(I might have spelled it wrong). Now, having said this if you do not believe the bible is the word of God than you will have a problem with what I am saying. Folks dont give in to societies peer pressure. Im not perfect and I dont say this on my high horse. Im just repeating what the Bible says about the subject.
God loves the sinner, but hates the sin. Lets not forget that. I have seen where people have hated gays and then when their on brother is one they tend to change and have more compassion for the gays. God is truly compassionate. People take the Bible out of context to justify their behavior rather it be adultrey, murder, homosexuality,hating the neighbor, etc etc. People just dont fear God anymore. Thats why sin runs rampant.
Yes, I have meet wonderful gay people. I do not think less of them. For some reason my christian brothers and sisters put gays in a different catagory. When I say this it does not mean they give the up coming sins a pass. I feel there feelings are stronger in their reaction to gays for some reason. This is wrong. Adultrey, murder, fornication, etc etc. Should have equal or greater impact. The new testament is where Christ comes into the picture. Christ is consider like a warm little fuzz ball(turn the other cheek,accept all,compassionate) to many people of today and thats ok. Im with you on that also. God,Jesus christ and the Holy Spirit make up the holy trinity,we must accept the whole delivery so to speak as one. The Alpha and Omega. Folks I know its hard reading at times, but please go back and read the old testament. God stays the same, we are the ones that change. Folks you must not justify homosexuality based on bad hetrosexual marriages or whatever. God says Homosexuality is wrong. Sorry, Folks Im going to have to go with God on this one. sincerely a43
I am sorry you feel that way about firearms, but think about what you just said. "An 11 year old kid just took a bullet here the other day from a gun that was smuggled from the good ole USA." If your country has a ban on these weapons, then why did this happen in your country? What does it matter where the gun came from? Your country has the ban, yet this kid is now gone. That makes no sense. Obviuosly someone in your country did not follow the law. That is my point. Banning guns does not solve the problem. Not dealing with the people who break the laws is the problem. We have an old saying here in the USA.
"If you make owning a gun a criminal act, then only criminals will own guns."
Think about it. Only the law abiding citizens would obey the law. Criminals are not going to give up their weapons, because there is a law to not have a weapon. As a matter of fact, statistics show that in the USA, cities that have gun bans have much higher crime rates than cities with out gun bans. If I was a criminal, I certainly would rather rob orkill someone that I know does not have a weapon in the home or car.
Our problem is the fact that we do not carry out the laws and sentences that we already have. We do not need new laws, we need to enforce the ones have.
I grew up in a home that had firearms, and I new exactly where they were lcated. My father taught me that a firearm is a tool, just like a power saw. I was shown how to safely use both tools and was told to never touch them, with out his permission. I listened to him and never had a problem. I did have respect and a little fear of what would happen if I did not follow his instructions, but I was more afraid of disapointing him if I did not follow his instructions. Sure, I did not follow all of his instructions on everything, but I did know that a firearm, just as a power aw could hurt me and even kill me, therefor I did not touch them.
Guns are not bad things. I loaded gun sitting on the table never killed anyone. An idiot who picks up the gun is who killed someone.
Bottom line is the fact that a kid in your country lost his life, because someone broke your country's law.
aspenleaf
Well-Known Member
I think their opinion is a little more valid and informed than yours.
The APA may have more backing but over9five's opinion is just as valid. I am not sure where his info comes from but just because he is not an assoc. of some type doesn't mean he is misinformed. I don’t agree with him but we all have the right to post our opinions. The discussion on this thread is getting better and I find it interesting to see what people think.
over9five ~ you bring up a good point. It is their opinion and it only changed in the last 30 years. The fact that they changed their stance could be they just felt pressured or they had facts that led them to change.
UPS Lifer
Well-Known Member
Area 43,
I will try to keep my comments brief. We all know that politics and religion can be very taboo subjects and when you mix them together WATCH OUT!
I believe in the same God you do. I am a Christian. However, none of us have the exact same beliefs. Also, for the purpose of discussion, other than the reference of the Bible, I think is it important to include all faiths.
I guess that my point of clarification of what I wrote would be this.
It is not up to me to judge someone else's actions. When the day of judgement comes, only God will decide what is right and what is wrong. God will judge each of us on our merits (or lack of!).
What is written in the Bible will never change, but the intrepretation of the Bible will continue for all time. What is the prominent or mainstream view today may not be in 1000 years.
In today's world, most of what we deal with is very complex. This subject is no different. Where I grapple with my past and current beliefs is this: I have close friends that follow the doctrines of our faith more closely than I do (other than sexual orientation) and I just can't get my arms around this one. I will not condemne or look down upon my friends (or others) for their beliefs or sexual orientation. Keeping that statement in mind, I feel that by not allowing gay folks to marry, I am (in essence) saying that I am better than them and I sit closer to God than they do. It is not my decision to make. It is not any state's decision to make either. By not allowing same sex partners to marry, we (as a society) are taking something away from them that is not ours to take away. A harsher way to look at that is we are punishing them for being different and not as "God" like as we are.
There are some or many folks that are "God fearing". I don't fear God. I don't believe in the wrath of God. I believe that God loves and cherishes all creatures and each of us should live our life as we "intrepret" God would want us to live it. Because we have free will, we will suffer the consequences of a decision or path that we take that is not "God like".
I also believe that my way is not the only way or the better way. Each of us has to do what we think is best and nobody is better than the next.
I have very conservative points of view and I also have liberal points of view in some areas (I guess this is one of them!!!) but I consider myself lightly conservative to mainstream.
Area 43... am not so sure we are that far apart in our beliefs...when you look at the whole picture.
Also Moreluck, I have no problem calling a same sex partnership (or in my mind...marriage) a life partnership or committment etc. I would agree to any term that would move forward or allow same sex partners to have the same benefits that are afforded to heterosexual marriages.
I will try to keep my comments brief. We all know that politics and religion can be very taboo subjects and when you mix them together WATCH OUT!
I believe in the same God you do. I am a Christian. However, none of us have the exact same beliefs. Also, for the purpose of discussion, other than the reference of the Bible, I think is it important to include all faiths.
I guess that my point of clarification of what I wrote would be this.
It is not up to me to judge someone else's actions. When the day of judgement comes, only God will decide what is right and what is wrong. God will judge each of us on our merits (or lack of!).
What is written in the Bible will never change, but the intrepretation of the Bible will continue for all time. What is the prominent or mainstream view today may not be in 1000 years.
In today's world, most of what we deal with is very complex. This subject is no different. Where I grapple with my past and current beliefs is this: I have close friends that follow the doctrines of our faith more closely than I do (other than sexual orientation) and I just can't get my arms around this one. I will not condemne or look down upon my friends (or others) for their beliefs or sexual orientation. Keeping that statement in mind, I feel that by not allowing gay folks to marry, I am (in essence) saying that I am better than them and I sit closer to God than they do. It is not my decision to make. It is not any state's decision to make either. By not allowing same sex partners to marry, we (as a society) are taking something away from them that is not ours to take away. A harsher way to look at that is we are punishing them for being different and not as "God" like as we are.
There are some or many folks that are "God fearing". I don't fear God. I don't believe in the wrath of God. I believe that God loves and cherishes all creatures and each of us should live our life as we "intrepret" God would want us to live it. Because we have free will, we will suffer the consequences of a decision or path that we take that is not "God like".
I also believe that my way is not the only way or the better way. Each of us has to do what we think is best and nobody is better than the next.
I have very conservative points of view and I also have liberal points of view in some areas (I guess this is one of them!!!) but I consider myself lightly conservative to mainstream.
Area 43... am not so sure we are that far apart in our beliefs...when you look at the whole picture.
Also Moreluck, I have no problem calling a same sex partnership (or in my mind...marriage) a life partnership or committment etc. I would agree to any term that would move forward or allow same sex partners to have the same benefits that are afforded to heterosexual marriages.
Sammie
Well-Known Member
I don’t dislike homosexuals by any means and people obviously have the right to their alternative life styles. After all, there’s the St.Benedict monks who live in silence. There are those who favor polygamy. People live in communes. There are vegans.
Look at today’s media culture. Will and Grace. Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. 2007’s Outstanding Talk Show Host, Ellen. Six Feet Under. Brokeback Mountain won three Oscars. I’m just going to throw this in, but why is such a controversial life style that one may or may not be comfortable with repeatedly shoved in the public’s face?
So the argument here is that gay employees in N.J. want the same benefits for their partners that married workers get. (I’m still stuck on how every refugee imaginable can enter this country and get everything this government has to offer.)
But… I think the issue crosses the line at marriage. And as one of you mentioned earlier, a gay couple can’t reproduce. Therefore, society couldn’t survive on homosexuals. Yet, they deserve the same benefits and liberties that heterosexuals have. Why?, since their behavior is a CHOICE. I have light skin that burns in the sun in a second. I have no choice in this matter. I can't choose. And BTW, they already have the same liberties. They can receive a civil union. They can vote. Work. Hold public office. Serve on a jury.
Government decided long ago that marriage is between a woman and a man. And long before that, marriage has been based on religion. The notion that marriage is a sacrament and not simply a contract can be traced St. Paul who compared the relationship of a husband and wife to that of Christ and his church (Eph. v, 23-32). What religion is based on same sex marriage?
Look at today’s media culture. Will and Grace. Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. 2007’s Outstanding Talk Show Host, Ellen. Six Feet Under. Brokeback Mountain won three Oscars. I’m just going to throw this in, but why is such a controversial life style that one may or may not be comfortable with repeatedly shoved in the public’s face?
So the argument here is that gay employees in N.J. want the same benefits for their partners that married workers get. (I’m still stuck on how every refugee imaginable can enter this country and get everything this government has to offer.)
But… I think the issue crosses the line at marriage. And as one of you mentioned earlier, a gay couple can’t reproduce. Therefore, society couldn’t survive on homosexuals. Yet, they deserve the same benefits and liberties that heterosexuals have. Why?, since their behavior is a CHOICE. I have light skin that burns in the sun in a second. I have no choice in this matter. I can't choose. And BTW, they already have the same liberties. They can receive a civil union. They can vote. Work. Hold public office. Serve on a jury.
Government decided long ago that marriage is between a woman and a man. And long before that, marriage has been based on religion. The notion that marriage is a sacrament and not simply a contract can be traced St. Paul who compared the relationship of a husband and wife to that of Christ and his church (Eph. v, 23-32). What religion is based on same sex marriage?
"I think their opinion is a little more valid and informed than yours."
I think you should think a little more.
They are organizations who make a lot of money from the homosexual population. Did you expect them to bite the hand that feeds them? Organizations say what they say to further their money making ability.
Doing the moral, or the right thing will always take a back seat to making more money.
We could even go on to say political correctness will come before doing the moral, or the right thing too. And right now (to the detriment of our once great country) it is politically correct to accept homosexuals as normal people.
I think you should think a little more.
They are organizations who make a lot of money from the homosexual population. Did you expect them to bite the hand that feeds them? Organizations say what they say to further their money making ability.
Doing the moral, or the right thing will always take a back seat to making more money.
We could even go on to say political correctness will come before doing the moral, or the right thing too. And right now (to the detriment of our once great country) it is politically correct to accept homosexuals as normal people.
blue efficacy
Well-Known Member
And why not accept them as normal people. They are normal people. They're just attracted to the same sex. Thats like saying a man who is attracted to and dates brunettes is any more or less moral or normal than a man who likes blondes.
blue efficacy
Well-Known Member
Here in this country, a marriage contract has nothing to do with religion, aside from the fact that many religious authorities are authorized to conduct ceremonies.
It seems unreasonable to alter the secular government contract that is marriage based on the whims of a religion. A religion that also says an invisible powerful entity impregnanted a virgin woman, among other such silliness.
This lifestyle isn't shoved in your face. If you don't like any of the TV programmes you mentioned, it's easy! Don't watch them!
What I fail to understand is, giving homosexuals rights on par with heterosexuals doesn't affect your close minded world at all. Why are you people so insistent that it not happen? So a committed gay couple is allowed to have a civil union and benefits on par to married straight people. That inconveniences you how?
I'll get off my socially liberal soapbox now, and will stay off it as long as hate and ignorance is kept to a minimum
705red
Browncafe Steward
Here in this country, a marriage contract has nothing to do with religion, aside from the fact that many religious authorities are authorized to conduct ceremonies.
It seems unreasonable to alter the secular government contract that is marriage based on the whims of a religion. A religion that also says an invisible powerful entity impregnanted a virgin woman, among other such silliness.
This lifestyle isn't shoved in your face. If you don't like any of the TV programmes you mentioned, it's easy! Don't watch them!
What I fail to understand is, giving homosexuals rights on par with heterosexuals doesn't affect your close minded world at all. Why are you people so insistent that it not happen? So a committed gay couple is allowed to have a civil union and benefits on par to married straight people. That inconveniences you how?
Until you are allowed to marry your buddy tommy its not a marriage. You are asking for benefits that the rest of us were not entitled to until we got married. My wife was not allowed under my medical until we married, why should johnny and tommy be allowed to those same benefits without a marriage certificate?
I'll get off my socially liberal soapbox now, and will stay off it as long as hate and ignorance is kept to a minimum
Area 43,
I will try to keep my comments brief. We all know that politics and religion can be very taboo subjects and when you mix them together WATCH OUT!
I believe in the same God you do. I am a Christian. However, none of us have the exact same beliefs. Also, for the purpose of discussion, other than the reference of the Bible, I think is it important to include all faiths.
I guess that my point of clarification of what I wrote would be this.
It is not up to me to judge someone else's actions. When the day of judgement comes, only God will decide what is right and what is wrong. God will judge each of us on our merits (or lack of!).
What is written in the Bible will never change, but the intrepretation of the Bible will continue for all time. What is the prominent or mainstream view today may not be in 1000 years.
In today's world, most of what we deal with is very complex. This subject is no different. Where I grapple with my past and current beliefs is this: I have close friends that follow the doctrines of our faith more closely than I do (other than sexual orientation) and I just can't get my arms around this one. I will not condemne or look down upon my friends (or others) for their beliefs or sexual orientation. Keeping that statement in mind, I feel that by not allowing gay folks to marry, I am (in essence) saying that I am better than them and I sit closer to God than they do. It is not my decision to make. It is not any state's decision to make either. By not allowing same sex partners to marry, we (as a society) are taking something away from them that is not ours to take away. A harsher way to look at that is we are punishing them for being different and not as "God" like as we are.
There are some or many folks that are "God fearing". I don't fear God. I don't believe in the wrath of God. I believe that God loves and cherishes all creatures and each of us should live our life as we "intrepret" God would want us to live it. Because we have free will, we will suffer the consequences of a decision or path that we take that is not "God like".
I also believe that my way is not the only way or the better way. Each of us has to do what we think is best and nobody is better than the next.
I have very conservative points of view and I also have liberal points of view in some areas (I guess this is one of them!!!) but I consider myself lightly conservative to mainstream.
Area 43... am not so sure we are that far apart in our beliefs...when you look at the whole picture.
Also Moreluck, I have no problem calling a same sex partnership (or in my mind...marriage) a life partnership or committment etc. I would agree to any term that would move forward or allow same sex partners to have the same benefits that are afforded to heterosexual marriages.
Hi Lifer, First Ill totally agree on your point of dicussing politics and religion, I ve seen where it has torn friendships apart. Its a very touchy subject to say the least. My intent here is not to disrespect anybody. Agree to Disagree. To comment on your position, not to judge others, I agree but on the same hand why then do we have courts and judges? Are they not judging people? We have this in place to keep order in our society. I also agree that there will be a final devine Judgement by God. Now don't get me wrong. Im not for dragging the gays into court and putting them in jail. Lifer, I guess instead of using the word, fear of God, I should have used Holy, deeply respectful, a true reverence.
We are like Gods children, at times he must punish us when we do wrong. What type of father would let his son run rampant. I believe in todays society we tend to soften our words on sin. That could be good and bad. The wrath of God. Its using wrath to hard, to me I do not have a problem with it.
I agree, the government should not respect one religion over another. Our founding fathers made sure of that and by the way most were devout Christians. Lifer, If your a christian, and truly believe the bible, Jesus Christ is the only way. Peroid. Now having said that, I do not go around and shove Christ in peoples face. I totally respect their choice or choices in life even though I might disagree.
In closing, I believe that we could get side tracked easily. Debating every little aspect of the bible. I believe it all comes down to the death,burial and resseruction of Jesus Christ. Admitting your a sinner only saved by grace through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. True repentance and forgiveness. The greatest act of Love the world has ever know. sincerely area 43
UPS Lifer
Well-Known Member
Here in this country, a marriage contract has nothing to do with religion, aside from the fact that many religious authorities are authorized to conduct ceremonies.
It seems unreasonable to alter the secular government contract that is marriage based on the whims of a religion. A religion that also says an invisible powerful entity impregnanted a virgin woman, among other such silliness. (original quote edited)
I'll get off my socially liberal soapbox now, and will stay off it as long as hate and ignorance is kept to a minimum
Blue Efficacy,
You make some valid points and I would hate to see you discredited.
I know you are trying to make a point but you do need to be aware that the majority of married folks out here strongly believe that marriage is a sacrament or a divine covenant between God and the participants. Marriage is also a civil union or contract, and the two do not necessarily go hand in hand here in this country. However....most folks probably feel more strongly about the former than the latter, myself included.
Also - no matter how you feel about religion, it is a very personal thing and I feel comfortable in saying that there are billions of people that believe in the divine impregnation of the Virgin Mary. Please tread lightly and carry respect for people and their beliefs. They do not think of this as a silly belief! I remember some one from another religion once telling me that I worshiped statues and believed in things that were devil worship.
the look on my face must have been one for the books! I lost respect for this person because of the assumptions he made based on the ignorance he has and preconcieved notions of a religion that he obviously does not understand.
How can you say this:
"A religion that also says an invisible powerful entity impregnanted a virgin woman, among other such silliness."
And then this:
"I'll get off my socially liberal soapbox now, and will stay off it as long as hate and ignorance is kept to a minimum "
I'm not religious, but I think that first sentence was a statement of "hate and ignorance."
"A religion that also says an invisible powerful entity impregnanted a virgin woman, among other such silliness."
And then this:
"I'll get off my socially liberal soapbox now, and will stay off it as long as hate and ignorance is kept to a minimum "
I'm not religious, but I think that first sentence was a statement of "hate and ignorance."
Overpaid Union Thug
Well-Known Member
You noticed those things too huh? That's why I refrained from posting on this anymore. Sometimes it's comical to just sit back and watch everyone contradict themselves.
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