How would you treat this accident and why

[toonertoo]

I was rear ended at the red light, I saw it coming. I had my e brake on which is the only reason I did not hit the car in front of me + leaving myself a cushion. How could I have avoided it??? I could have put it in gear and drove into a yard, and been left sitting there with property damage.....and it would have been MY FAULT. And the speeder, phonecell jerk/idiot driver would have disapperared into the oblivion. So I just said a prayer, and sat there.
And the police didnt come, probaly never came, I was there an hour trying to figure out my bosses digital camera for him. My bumper was totally collapsed, but no other damage to the pkg car. I was hit by a 70 something olds, and my boss asked why the air bag didnt go Off, I said geez dont know, could it be 70s cars didnt have them................

 

[trickpony1]

"...could have done something different to prevent the accident".

Could, should, would and might....brilliant logic coming from our leaders.

If we, the drivers, could read minds we'd all be sitting at a blackjack table in Las Vegas and we'd be the hell outta here.

I have a novel idea...let's just all stay at home and get paid.

 

[toonertoo]

Motorcycles are a big problem this yr. Bikers are not the problem, its the idiots with crotch rockets, that cost more money, than they have brains and more powerful than they know. They do wheelies in traffic, weave like idiots and try to power through spots where if someone hit the brake they would be ground meat. Ya dont see harley, or gold wing guys doing it, just young stupid, inexperienced on 2 wheel idiots. I try to avoid them but Im not going to risk my self to protect the insane.

 

[Anonymous Gearjammer]

Pulling a 48 ft. trailer, I was going to make a right turn from the side street the hub is located onto the main drag. As I positioned myself in the far right lane then proceeded to swing out to the center to make turn, I noticed a crotch rocket in the parking lot to the left. Appearing that he was not going to wait for me to turn , I slowed to a stop figuring he was going to jump on and make a quick left turn. Well he did jump on, however did not make a left turn but looped around me making a right turn. Wearing a blue supervisor polo with brown kakis, so upon returning to the building I went and talked to Feeder manager telling him what happened, he asked what he looked like. Didn't get a good look was at night, but he was one of two that rode motorcycles that day should be easy to figure out who it was.

Brings back memories of a poor package car driver that had a bicyclist swerve and fall over in front of him dying instantly. Try living with that the rest of your life. Thoughts and prayers go out to them.

 

[Dutch Dawg]

Motorcycles are a big problem this yr. Bikers are not the problem, its the idiots with crotch rockets, that cost more money, than they have brains and more powerful than they know. They do wheelies in traffic, weave like idiots and try to power through spots where if someone hit the brake they would be ground meat. Ya dont see harley, or gold wing guys doing it, just young stupid, inexperienced on 2 wheel idiots......

I am more frequently seeing big V Twin bikers play chicken with the lane divider, whether it be with oncoming traffic down a county road or as they are passing a set of doubles down the interstate. they seem to want to hug that painted line causing their beach bars to be a good 6" across. I wonder if once they don their leather chaps and bad smirk, if they don't think of themselves as being infallable.

I too ride...with common sense.

 

[tieguy]

Tie, you are correct. Splitting hairs over two different issues, but yet we speak of them as one and the same.

As far as being at fault, yes there is a slight possibility that had the driver looked into the rear view mirror, the guy might still be alive. But again maybe not.

When you are turning across on coming traffic, your attention is and should be on the clear path you will be taking.

With all said and done Tie, you did not issue your opinion as to avoidable or un?

Not enough detail in the article to render a decision Danny. This is actually a great example of the avoidability determination. At this point we have seen quite a few responses on this thread where posters offer their opinion on the avoidability determination and also motorcylists in general.

contact with the very rear of what is a fairly slow moving vehicle like a package car would seem to be a strong indication that the motorcyclist may have been at fault.

Items missing from this article would be
a) position of motorcycle in his passing lane.
b) Where the motorcycle was in relation to the package car when the pkg car driver started his turn. If he is close to center line then he is more visible then if he was more to his left line.
c) speed of motorcycle.
d) efforts made by either the motorcyclists or pkg driver if any to avoid the accident.

This clearly appears to be a scenario where another motorist is passing us as we start to make a left turn:

1) In that scenario our driver should clear his mirrors prior to starting his turn.

2) In this scenario the state police may assign fault to the motorcyclist since he should only pass another vehicle when safe to do so.

3) In this scenario the driver is responsibile for clearing his mirrors prior to starting his turn. If we are able to assess the position of both vehicles and determine the driver could have seen the passing motorist prior to starting his turn then our driver gets charged with an avoidable accident.

So in this scenario its possible that fault goes to the passing motorist while our driver is charged with an avoidable accident.

 

[tieguy]

"...could have done something different to prevent the accident".

Could, should, would and might....brilliant logic coming from our leaders.

If we, the drivers, could read minds we'd all be sitting at a blackjack table in Las Vegas and we'd be the hell outta here.

I have a novel idea...let's just all stay at home and get paid.

Trick your response is interesting in that you in your position are probably more skilled as a driver then most posters on this board. Certainly you as a feeder driver understand that there are many things you do every single day to avoid contact with another motorist and to control your vehicles movement under a variety of driving conditions. While most motorists facing a tricky situation would slam on the brakes , Trick as an experienced feeder driver could tell you of many scenarios where he definitely would not want to hit the brakes or where his correct response may be to hit the accelerator.

The other thing that I often find interesting with these debates is that you folks often do the exact same thing you complain that we as management do. If we have a feeder accident or my drivers see an accident on the road they will often discuss it and talk about what the driver with the accident shoulda, coulda or woulda done. You folks actually have discussions every day where you talk about whether an accident was avoidable or unavoidable. In the process many of the newer drivers actually gain valuable insight in how to prevent accidents in those scenarios. So while you often get pissed at me for using the shoulda , coulda words you end up learning from your peers when they use the same words.

 

[dannyboy]

Tie

I would agree that there are some pieces of information that are missing to allow the full view of what happened.

And it all boils down to the legal view of fault vs the company view of avoid-ability which are not always the same thing.

Getting the even playing field to chargeable avoidable would be nice. It would seem there are many problems getting to that point though. And in many areas of the country.

But as I suspect, the driver might have checked her mirror or not, the cyclist hit her in the rear, which would allow me to assume that he was still BEHIND her and had not yet passed her. That would make looking into the rear view mirror a non issue as she would not have been able to see him anyway.

Now you must admit, hitting the driver in the rear even if the driver was beginning her turn makes it unavoidable to me. You only have very limited control over what motorists do behind you. And you are limited in how you can respond to them by moving forward or into another lane. And in this case, neither of which looks to have been the right answer.

d

 

[sendagain]

I agree with what WKMAC said. All it would take is some lawyer wanting to make a killing, to get our internal files telling our driver the accident could have been avoided. With the deadheads they put on juries these days, you just might get a bunch of money.

 

[tieguy]

Tie

I would agree that there are some pieces of information that are missing to allow the full view of what happened.

And it all boils down to the legal view of fault vs the company view of avoid-ability which are not always the same thing.

Getting the even playing field to chargeable avoidable would be nice. It would seem there are many problems getting to that point though. And in many areas of the country.

But as I suspect, the driver might have checked her mirror or not, the cyclist hit her in the rear, which would allow me to assume that he was still BEHIND her and had not yet passed her. That would make looking into the rear view mirror a non issue as she would not have been able to see him anyway.

Now you must admit, hitting the driver in the rear even if the driver was beginning her turn makes it unavoidable to me. You only have very limited control over what motorists do behind you. And you are limited in how you can respond to them by moving forward or into another lane. And in this case, neither of which looks to have been the right answer.

d

Danny reading the article it appears the motorcyclist was trying to pass our driver on the left. The article states the motorcyclist was traveling east in the west bound lane as our driver made a left across the westbound lane into a private driveway. If the motorcyclist was trying to pass us then the question about whether our driver cleared her mirrors before turning. If the motorcyclist simply hit us in the rear then thats clearly an unavoidable.

 

[tieguy]

Tie


Now you must admit, hitting the driver in the rear even if the driver was beginning her turn makes it unavoidable to me. d

Not always. The question here would be could the driver have seen the motorcyclist passing on his left and could he have avoided the accident by clearing his mirrors and waiting for the motorcyclist to pass before making his left turn.

 

[dannyboy]

Tie

If the cycle was traveling at hi-way speeds and the driver started her turn, what the hell does checking her mirrors have to do with it.

If I turn left and go across the other lane of traffic, am I to wait patently for the traffic behind me to come to a complete stop before I move out? After all, that is what you are saying she ought to be doing. Right?

And that is assuming that he was to the center of the road to where she could even see him.

Then add to the the mix the very high possibility of the cycle speeding. Coupled with the road view, was it straight or curved etc etc.

Getting back to what we do know. She was in the process of making the turn when he struck her.

Now why would he do that unless he was about to strike the car anyway from the rear. Or maybe strike a car that was behind the truck?

Or maybe, as you well know happens, was trying to get himself killed?

While there are too many unknowns, I still think she did everything she was taught to avoid the accident. And while i regret the loss of human life, telling her it was her fault because the accident is avoidable is a bit much.

d PS

Is there a chance I could be right this time?

Ah.......No!

 

[trickpony1]

Tie-
Why is everything our driver's fault?

The fact that the motorcyclist was going the wrong way in an established lane of traffic confers a large degree of culpability upon the cyclist.

Why are our driver's responsible for everything? Responsiblity infers control which we have absolutely none of.

We all know the reason our driver will probably get fired is so when the opposing attorney (the estate of the cyclist) says ".......you (the company) didn't do anything to your driver", the company can say " yes we did, we fired the driver but the union got her job back", thereby veneering the company from any further legal action.

As others have mentioned, if our driver gets fired I hope he/she gets an attorney and tears "our" company a new one. (no sarcasm intended)

 

[tieguy]

Tie

If the cycle was traveling at hi-way speeds and the driver started her turn, what the hell does checking her mirrors have to do with it.

If I turn left and go across the other lane of traffic, am I to wait patently for the traffic behind me to come to a complete stop before I move out? After all, that is what you are saying she ought to be doing. Right?

Danny never said that. If however there is a motorist passing us and we can see the driver in that lane before we start our turn and stop and wait for him to go past should we do so or should we go ahead and make the turn?

 

[dannyboy]

If

Mighty big word to be so small.

And I am dead sure that IF she saw him, she would not have made the turn.

d

 

[tieguy]

Tie-
Why is everything our driver's fault?

The fact that the motorcyclist was going the wrong way in an established lane of traffic confers a large degree of culpability upon the cyclist.

Trick I never said that. I said there is not enough evidence present in the article to determine if the driver is at fault or if the accident was avoidable.

 

[tieguy]

Mighty big word to be so small.

And I am dead sure that IF she saw him, she would not have made the turn.

d

Are you dead sure she cleared her mirrors before making the left turn?

Should I worry myself silly about apeasing you and trick over fault and avoidability or should i worry myself silly about teaching drivers to clear their mirrors so this motorcyclists does not lose her life and so the ups driver never has to deal with the traumatic experience of being involved with a fatality. For an alleged safety advocate you're a little too concerned about fault and not enough about saving a life.

 

[tieguy]

Why are our driver's responsible for everything? Responsiblity infers control which we have absolutely none of.

Bull****t!!!! Cheryl please forgive the word but it needs to stay in context in this case. You have a lot of control over your vehicle you can prevent many accidents and save many lives if you do a good job of driving defensively. If you're going to have this discussion trick then start by being honest. Don't waste my time with this lying whining dishonest act of yours. If you keep a safe following distance at all times and drive the to the conditions you can prevent 90 percent of the accidents you see out there. If you check your mirrors constantly and stay alert then you can prevent another 9.9 percent.

We all know the reason our driver will probably get fired is so when the opposing attorney (the estate of the cyclist) says ".......you (the company) didn't do anything to your driver", the company can say " yes we did, we fired the driver but the union got her job back", thereby veneering the company from any further legal action.

Then I guess the attorney should sue the union instead?

As others have mentioned, if our driver gets fired I hope he/she gets an attorney and tears "our" company a new one. (no sarcasm intended)

And if the driver checks her mirrors maybe she prevents this accident. I don't know I was not there. You weren't either. Why don't you do that driver a favor as a good union brother and teach her and all the future newbie drivers you see how to clear their mirrors and how to avoid accidents and maybe just maybe they don't every have to deal with a fatality and they don't every have to worry about your twisted vision of the world coming true. Nah that wouldn't be any fun so lets continue living your twisted fricked up vision of dungeons and dragons. Puff puff pass there drug driver don't hog the joint. I want to see the same purple dragons and monsters you are seeing. When you go back to work I sure hope you don't do this little whining act of yours where you tell new drivers that they will go out and kill someone some day and not be able to do a damn thing to prevent it. But something tells me you will.

 

[DS]

Motorcycle riders get complacent after driving for years with no accidents.They forget that that they are unprotected and take risks that we wouldn`t.Well lifes not that easy at 140 mph and they often die because of it.I put my faith in the ups driver to know better.Someone made a wrong decision.chances are it was the biker.

 

[dannyboy]

Tie

What you refuse to understand it that the article did give you enough information to understand that checking the mirrors is a mute point.

#1 the cycle was in the wrong lane for the direction of travel. That is a good indication that he was passing the vehicles in front of him. The main reason for that maneuver would have been excessive speed or a total lack in focus driving down the road.

#2 In keeping with #1 to pass vehicles that are stopped in front of you, you usually have a good head of steam going when you pass. You can pretty much rule out that he had stopped for the traffic and then decided to pass on the left side (and not the right which would make sense.)

#3 OK, she cleared her mirrors. The cycle was traveling at a high rate of speed and when she checked her mirrors to clear the path, he could have been anywhere from 500-1000 feet or more to the rear of the car. So what are/were her responsibilities seeing him coming up from the rear that far back.

#4 The fact that he was passing her on the left is a very strong suggestion that #1 is a fact, and the fact also remains that he hit her hard enough to become a fatality. That is very rare when you are traveling less than 25-30, but instead is very much in keeping with the high speeds that are indicated.

As to your comment of

teaching drivers to clear their mirrors so this motorcyclists does not lose her life and so the ups driver never has to deal with the traumatic experience of being involved with a fatality

that is very childish of you. Yes, we attempt to teach the drivers as much as we can to keep your eyes moving, leave yourself an out, make sure they see you, to aim high, and getting the big picture. But it would seem that the driver did all those things.

And as for

Should I worry myself silly about apeasing you and trick

, you betcha! After all, that is the only reason you have a job at UPS!

d PS, there are two p's in that word BTW