ralph nader lists off some of the way america is not capitalist. they both define it as a corporate state as the state has so much economic intervention.
ralphnaderradiohour.com
robinson: ...Really, most socialists begin with a sort of revulsion at hierarchy and class. Ownership is a big part of it;who owns, right? Who gives the ordersand who takes the orders? The socialists foundationally have seen the narrow concentration of ownership as something that is revolting to the sense of justice.
The reason that public ownership has always been such a big part of what socialists have pushed for is because it’s not just government ownership, right? Because it’s democratizing ownership. It’s making sure that, the classic definition is the people who work in the factories ought to own them. There ought to be a democratic economy. Democratizing the economy has really been the foundational principle of socialism. That’s something you do hear running through today.
Ralph Nader:Let me interrupt you here, we have to get concrete here,because that’s the only way you can communicate what you’re trying to communicate. Let me ask you some very rapid questions. They always divide socialism--and we assume it’s Democratic Socialism--it’s not monarchical socialism--with production, production of goods and services and distribution of the wealth, the profits, the taxation revenues, et cetera. All right, so let’s start with production. Would you call public banking, which is an increasingly, widely supported effort where all the state and local funds are now being managed by Wall Street with humungous fees, to be basically managed by public banks like the North Dakota state[-owned]banks that have been very successful, clean, and honest, over the last hundred years. Would you say that’s socialism?
Nathan Robinson: Yeah,I’d say that’s in keeping with socialist values, yeah. I think that’s something that a lot of socialists have pushed for.
Ralph Nader:We now have one third of America public lands not counting off-shore, which would double that. Is that socialism? It’s owned by the public, administered by the Department of Interior.
Nathan Robinson: Yeah, but the addition is that it has to also be democratically controlled, right? If it’s publicly-owned,but also,we have a dysfunctional democracy where people don’t exercise meaningful control over what their government does, that really undermines the claim to even having a public asset be a socialized asset.
Ralph Nader:But I think what you’re pointing out is the public lands are owned by the people but they’re controlled by timber companies, oil, gas, coal companies.
Nathan Robinson: Right, yes, exactly.
Ralph Nader:Okay, public airways.We own the public airways and give it away free,via the federal Communications Commission backed by Congress,to the radio and TV broadcasters who decide who says what and who doesn’t 24 hours a day. To what extent do you think that’s socialism, ownership by the people controlled by big business?
Nathan Robinson: Well you know the expression “necessary but not sufficient”, right? Public ownership is the beginning. But then as you say, if it ends up functionally controlled by big business, then the ultimate socialist value,which is public ownership--does the public and ownership of course is the right to decide;does the public have the right to decide to the extent that that right just exists on paper, you’re undermining its claim to conform with socialist values.
Ralph Nader:Okay, let’s go to publicly-owned pensions, private pensions owned by the workers and public pensions owned by government employees, federal, state, local; trillions of dollars, is that socialism?
Nathan Robinson: Again,it depends. I mean I think so,but like public/private is a distinction that doesn’t necessarily capture socialist/capitalist, right? Because to the extent that socialism is about social ownership and economic democracy, you can have a technically private institution like a worker cooperative, right?that is more in keeping with socialist values than something that is technically in the public sector, technically government-owned,but that ordinary people don’t in practice end up having any meaningful control over or input into.
Ralph Nader:Okay, so a consumer cooperative like the food coops in St. Paul, Minnesota, is that a form of socialism where the consumers actually own the food stores?
Nathan Robinson: I try not to use terms like a form of socialism,like is this socialism? I tend to, I mean I think of socialism as a set of principles or values and you measure an institution by
whether it is in keeping with that core socialist set of values. I would say that yes, an institution like that is in keeping with a socialist set of values. Of course,if then it mistreats its employees then it departs from that socialist set of values.
Ralph Nader:How about labor-owned banks like Amalgamated Banks in New York and Washington that pays very much like a commercial bank in terms of fees and penalties? But it’s owned by the labor union. How would you categorize that?
Nathan Robinson: Again, part of its operations are in keeping with socialist values, right? Labor ownership is an important socialist value. But of course if then it’s replicating the extortion of the banking practices of any other commercial bank, that is a departure from socialist values. It’s less a matter of taking any given institution and putting it in the binary socialism slash not socialism box. But it’s more about saying, what are the socialist aspirations for how things should be run, and to what degree are these embodying these aspirations?
Ralph Nader:Okay, I’m leading you to a very, very important concluding question here,Nathan. Bear with me.Trillions of dollars of US government research and development has built over the years the major industries in the country--not just Silicon Valley,[but] biotechnology, nanotechnology, aerospace, pharmaceutical, containerization, on and on. Basically,it’s a one-way giveaway. The taxpayer sends the money to Washington, and the money is given to these companies without anything in return--no equity ownership, no royalties, zero. It’s a huge giveaway. How would you categorize that?
Nathan Robinson: Well, you know, that is what is commonly known as socialism for the rich, right, is that you have public assets working in the interest of a small number of wealthy elites. I don’t think any socialist is in favor of the public, the commons doing all of the work and then a small number of people reaping the rewards. But as you say, having public research than then the public benefits from, that is very much in keeping with the core socialist set of values.
Ralph Nader:What about Tennessee Valley Authority?
Nathan Robinson: Yeah, absolutely. I think commonly-owned and controlled power companies and utilities...in fact,when the “sewer socialists”took over cities in the early part of the 20th-century, that was a big part;municipal, utilities was a big part of the socialist push.
Ralph Nader:A thousand municipally-owned electric companies at least in the United States, three in Connecticut,actually of all places.