Influenza And Mask Science

[rickyb]

Democratic economic systems? Where 51% could vote to enslave the other 49%? Sounds like a great, stable, system to me. I've said it before, economic and government systems, are just ways to describe interactions between people. People aren't perfect, and we're even worse at understanding each other. Government and economic systems will never be perfect. Civilizations rise and fall. Life goes on.

well right now you have 5% enslaving the 95% (or even worse) so that would be an improvement. are you saying im wrong about that?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

well right now you have 5% enslaving the 95% (or even worse) so that would be an improvement. are you saying im wrong about that?

It's a matter of perspective. You can have and find support for whatever opinion you want to have, which is what you are doing, but you are trying to pass off opinion as fact. That is what frustrates me the most when I read communist/socialist/leftist propaganda. That's literally gaslighting, distorting reality by trying to pass off subjective opinions as objective facts.

You have to completely redefine words in order to support your assertion that 5% enslaves 95%. Besides, I thought it was 1% enslaving 99%. I am not a slave, and if I am in any way limited in my choices it's by my own decision based on my own value system. It is far more efficient for me to continue to work for a corporation, despite all the problems, than it would be to strike out on my own. But that can change any time, and I always have the choice to leave. I am free to travel wherever I want, except onto other people's private property.

You can say that life would be better for everyone under socialism, but that has never borne out. It's a lie to rouse the rabble, to create social unrest, to create turmoil and for a different select few to seize control and actually enslave everyone. You can say that those weren't "true socialism", but I say the ideal socialism you have faith in is a fantasy, it cannot exist because it denies human nature to the most absolute degree, and systems are just people interacting. In order for a system to work at all, it has to be attuned to the people interacting within it.

 

[rickyb]

It's a matter of perspective. You can have and find support for whatever opinion you want to have, which is what you are doing, but you are trying to pass off opinion as fact. That is what frustrates me the most when I read communist/socialist/leftist propaganda. That's literally gaslighting, distorting reality by trying to pass off subjective opinions as objective facts.

You have to completely redefine words in order to support your assertion that 5% enslaves 95%. Besides, I thought it was 1% enslaving 99%. I am not a slave, and if I am in any way limited in my choices it's by my own decision based on my own value system. It is far more efficient for me to continue to work for a corporation, despite all the problems, than it would be to strike out on my own. But that can change any time, and I always have the choice to leave. I am free to travel wherever I want, except onto other people's private property.

You can say that life would be better for everyone under socialism, but that has never borne out. It's a lie to rouse the rabble, to create social unrest, to create turmoil and for a different select few to seize control and actually enslave everyone. You can say that those weren't "true socialism", but I say the ideal socialism you have faith in is a fantasy, it cannot exist because it denies human nature to the most absolute degree, and systems are just people interacting. In order for a system to work at all, it has to be attuned to the people interacting within it.

yea we are stuck in mental prisons. ppl think they are free when they are not. we already have a few enslaving everyone, controlling what you think and putting you into debt servitude. were not slaves, but the system is devolving into neo feudalism. u said hte word "slavery" or whatever and i went with it. not necessarily accurate but doesnt mean were free either. capitalism is a recent development, a few hundred years old. so did these other systems defy human nature? why didnt capitalism appear sooner? fact is people put up with BS for a long time, the fact that we put up with it doesnt mean its the right one.

actually it has been borne out. 7th biggest business in spain is a socialist one and hte execs only make 7 to 12x the workers. the workers elect the management. spain also had a civil war which orwell was part of and other people have commented on.

in italy partly because of govt regulations which encourage democratic worker controlled jobs, they have 25,000 according to what i just read on google. the emilia romagna region is a success:

• Cooperatives make up over 40% of the GDP of the ER region
• In Bologna two out of three citizens are members of a cooperative
• In Bologna over 85% of the city's social services are provided by social co-ops
• Per capita income in ER has risen from 17th to second among Italy's 20 regions
• Per capital income is 50% higher than the national average
• Of the European regions, ER is number 11 of 122 regions in terms of GNP per inhabitant
• Bologna has the highest disposable income of any of Italy's 103 provinces
• Bologna has the highest per capita expenditure on the arts of any city in Italy
• The unemployment rate of 4% is virtually full employment
• 70% of Bologna's households have home ownership

Italy's Emilia Romagna | Cooperative Grocer Archives

www.grocer.coop

did you know US and UK went into italy after wwII to bust up the cooperatives?

you might ask why you dont already know this, or why you only knew about govt controlled economies. u talk to me about bubbles.

you said " Democratic economic systems? Where 51% could vote to enslave the other 49%? " so what percentage do we have right now since our system is not democratic? do you have a solution to small majorities in democracies? id imagine if people arent comfortable with small majorities they could require a bigger threshold or compromise. beats dictatorships either way.

our economic system is typically free choice of dictatorship. its the equivalent of being able to choose which dictatorship country you want to move to; you cant pick the democratic countries only the dictators.

corporations are not efficient and it doesnt have to be this way. u shouldnt be stuck between that and starting your own biz.

 

[Serf]

Just take a pocket knife and slice a small hole in whatever mask you have to wear to buy groceries. It’s liberating.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

yea we are stuck in mental prisons. ppl think they are free when they are not. we already have a few enslaving everyone, controlling what you think and putting you into debt servitude. were not slaves, but the system is devolving into neo feudalism. u said hte word "slavery" or whatever and i went with it. not necessarily accurate but doesnt mean were free either. capitalism is a recent development, a few hundred years old. so did these other systems defy human nature? why didnt capitalism appear sooner? fact is people put up with BS for a long time, the fact that we put up with it doesnt mean its the right one.

actually it has been borne out. 7th biggest business in spain is a socialist one and hte execs only make 7 to 12x the workers. the workers elect the management. spain also had a civil war which orwell was part of and other people have commented on.

in italy partly because of govt regulations which encourage democratic worker controlled jobs, they have 25,000 according to what i just read on google. the emilia romagna region is a success:

• Cooperatives make up over 40% of the GDP of the ER region
• In Bologna two out of three citizens are members of a cooperative
• In Bologna over 85% of the city's social services are provided by social co-ops
• Per capita income in ER has risen from 17th to second among Italy's 20 regions
• Per capital income is 50% higher than the national average
• Of the European regions, ER is number 11 of 122 regions in terms of GNP per inhabitant
• Bologna has the highest disposable income of any of Italy's 103 provinces
• Bologna has the highest per capita expenditure on the arts of any city in Italy
• The unemployment rate of 4% is virtually full employment
• 70% of Bologna's households have home ownership

Italy's Emilia Romagna | Cooperative Grocer Archives

www.grocer.coop

did you know US and UK went into italy after wwII to bust up the cooperatives?

you might ask why you dont already know this, or why you only knew about govt controlled economies. u talk to me about bubbles.

you said " Democratic economic systems? Where 51% could vote to enslave the other 49%? " so what percentage do we have right now since our system is not democratic? do you have a solution to small majorities in democracies? id imagine if people arent comfortable with small majorities they could require a bigger threshold or compromise. beats dictatorships either way.

our economic system is typically free choice of dictatorship. its the equivalent of being able to choose which dictatorship country you want to move to; you cant pick the democratic countries only the dictators.

corporations are not efficient and it doesnt have to be this way. u shouldnt be stuck between that and starting your own biz.

You are conflating cooperatives with socialism, and corporations with capitalism. But we've been over this before. I think that's why people have a hard time relating to the things you espouse, because you use different definitions for words than other people. You might as well be speaking a different language. Cooperatives may be the solution to the problems of corporations. But socialism is not the solution to the problems of capitalism.

 

[DriveInDriѵeOut]

Just take a pocket knife and slice a small hole in whatever mask you have to wear to buy groceries. It’s liberating.

 

[Old Man Jingles]

Just take a pocket knife and slice a small hole in whatever mask you have to wear to buy groceries. It’s liberating.

I flatten the wire that 'conforms to the nose' and that allows air in and the hot air out.

You may need more due to the amount of your hot air!

 

[rickyb]

You are conflating cooperatives with socialism, and corporations with capitalism. But we've been over this before. I think that's why people have a hard time relating to the things you espouse, because you use different definitions for words than other people. You might as well be speaking a different language. Cooperatives may be the solution to the problems of corporations. But socialism is not the solution to the problems of capitalism.

worker run coops is socialism. guys i listen to distinguish it from capitalism and say its socialism. arent corporations capitalism? but we can agree to disagree. i agree i use different definitions but if everyone is wrong im not going to join in, its up to them to educate themselves. their definitions are wrong for a reason; they want you to have a there is no alternative mentality. it maintains the status quo and keeps the money flowing to the top. their definition of socialism originates from the 2 major propaganda systems in the world: the west and the east. neither was accurate and both used it for their own nefarious means. they destroyed worker controlled economy pretty quickly in the russian revolution, it devolved into state capitalism i believe is the term one of them used.

i think coops are one solution to any economy which centralizes power the way capitalism and corporations typically do.

 

[Box Ox]

i think coops are one solution to any economy which centralizes power the way capitalism and corporations typically do.

 

[rickyb]

View attachment 311165

u r a dragon er

 

[zubenelgenubi]

worker run coops is socialism. guys i listen to distinguish it from capitalism and say its socialism. arent corporations capitalism? but we can agree to disagree. i agree i use different definitions but if everyone is wrong im not going to join in, its up to them to educate themselves. their definitions are wrong for a reason; they want you to have a there is no alternative mentality. it maintains the status quo and keeps the money flowing to the top. their definition of socialism originates from the 2 major propaganda systems in the world: the west and the east. neither was accurate and both used it for their own nefarious means. they destroyed worker controlled economy pretty quickly in the russian revolution, it devolved into state capitalism i believe is the term one of them used.

i think coops are one solution to any economy which centralizes power the way capitalism and corporations typically do.

Corporations are not capitalism. Corporations are a form of company, designed to limit personal liabilities of the owners, which allows them to take greater risks. This is what makes it possible to build bigger and bigger projects, and more and more complex products that make life easier for everyone. I find that the problem with this set up is that too much efficiency and too little personal liability does tend to lead to less freedom. That is not directly a fault of capitalism, it is laws that have unintended consequences.

Co-ops can be incorporated, that fact alone disproves your assertion that Co-ops are socialism and corporations are capitalism. Other types of companies that can be formed in a capitalistic system are sole proprietorships, which allows the owner certain tax benefits, but leave them open to personal liability if someone were to come to harm due to their business activities. There are partnerships, which are multi-proprietorship companies. There are LLC's which are similar to corporations, but have different tax implications. Etc.

Your views on using differing definitions makes me think of the story of the tower of babel. Some striking resemblances. Must be some allegorical value there.

 

[rickyb]

Corporations are not capitalism. Corporations are a form of company, designed to limit personal liabilities of the owners, which allows them to take greater risks. This is what makes it possible to build bigger and bigger projects, and more and more complex products that make life easier for everyone. I find that the problem with this set up is that too much efficiency and too little personal liability does tend to lead to less freedom. That is not directly a fault of capitalism, it is laws that have unintended consequences.

Co-ops can be incorporated, that fact alone disproves your assertion that Co-ops are socialism and corporations are capitalism. Other types of companies that can be formed in a capitalistic system are sole proprietorships, which allows the owner certain tax benefits, but leave them open to personal liability if someone were to come to harm due to their business activities. There are partnerships, which are multi-proprietorship companies. There are LLC's which are similar to corporations, but have different tax implications. Etc.

Your views on using differing definitions makes me think of the story of the tower of babel. Some striking resemblances. Must be some allegorical value there.

youre quite right about that. so im wondering how did they make generalizations about corporations? they must typically follow a certain model.

i still think the problem with capitalism is it concentrates too much power

 

[Box Ox]

youre quite right about that. so im wondering how did they make generalizations about corporations? they must typically follow a certain model.

i still think the problem with capitalism is it concentrates too much power

 

[rickyb]

Corporations are not capitalism. Corporations are a form of company, designed to limit personal liabilities of the owners, which allows them to take greater risks. This is what makes it possible to build bigger and bigger projects, and more and more complex products that make life easier for everyone. I find that the problem with this set up is that too much efficiency and too little personal liability does tend to lead to less freedom. That is not directly a fault of capitalism, it is laws that have unintended consequences.

Co-ops can be incorporated, that fact alone disproves your assertion that Co-ops are socialism and corporations are capitalism. Other types of companies that can be formed in a capitalistic system are sole proprietorships, which allows the owner certain tax benefits, but leave them open to personal liability if someone were to come to harm due to their business activities. There are partnerships, which are multi-proprietorship companies. There are LLC's which are similar to corporations, but have different tax implications. Etc.

Your views on using differing definitions makes me think of the story of the tower of babel. Some striking resemblances. Must be some allegorical value there.

i searched if cooperatives are capitalist or socialist even though i knew the answer anyways and it said market socialist.

richard wolff says markets are not a defining aspect of either system.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

i searched if cooperatives are capitalist or socialist even though i knew the answer anyways and it said market socialist.

richard wolff says markets are not a defining aspect of either system.

Coops operate based on employees buying in at a certain amount, say 500 dollars, and paying off the rest of their share, or buying more shares, through payroll deductions. That is capitalism. Workers owning the company they work for does not make socialism.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

youre quite right about that. so im wondering how did they make generalizations about corporations? they must typically follow a certain model.

i still think the problem with capitalism is it concentrates too much power

Corporations are a pretty recent development, from a historical perspective. You can say they concentrate too much power, and that might be true. In the US, corporations used to be limited to forming for a single purpose, such as to build a bridge, or a limited duration, such as a year or two.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

trump is def to blame, democrats are corrupt too and other republicans as well. im under hte impression trump is mostly responsible.

yea but americans havent thought for themselves for sometime now. youve had a system of mass propaganda since wwI and you invented it. nazi germany copied it from you guys. your govt and the media has controlled the narrative about the red scare and trickle down economics. and socialists like myself are called names even by you. we live in a culture where people are quite often ridiculed for believing a minority opinion.

i agree with you guys govt doesnt always put out the right numbers. i wouldnt be suprised if the numbers were even higher. im not a huge expert on the statistics, but everyone i listen to says its been a disaster for america and they say endcoronavirus website numbers are legit. i disagree that coronavirus wasnt a huge disaster for america in terms of cases and deaths.

the right wing is probably in a denial phase of what happened. maybe some day you will accept it. but maybe not, 9/11 is one example.

Thank you for sharing your views.

 

[rickyb]

Thank you for sharing your views.

i cant stop

 

[rickyb]

Coops operate based on employees buying in at a certain amount, say 500 dollars, and paying off the rest of their share, or buying more shares, through payroll deductions. That is capitalism. Workers owning the company they work for does not make socialism.

agree to disagree. worker ownership is different from democratic participation in it.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

i cant stop

I never would have guessed...