Michael Moore Hit in the Face with Reality?

[wkmac]

Interesting quote by Leo Tolstoy

"The misapprehension springs from the fact that the learned jurists, deceiving themselves as well as others, depict in their books an ideal of government - not as it really is, an assembly of men who oppress their fellow citizens, but in accordance with the scientific postulate, as a body of men who act as the representatives of the rest of the nation. They have gone on repeating this to others so long that they have ended by believing it themselves, and they really seem to think that justice is one of the duties of governments. History, however, shows us that governments, as seen from the reign of Caesar to those of the two Napoleons and Prince Bismarck, are in their very essence a violation of justice; a man or a body of men having at command an army of trained soldiers, deluded creatures who are ready for any violence, and through whose agency they govern the State, will have no keen sense of the obligation of justice. Therefore governments will never consent to diminish the number of those well-trained and submissive servants, who constitute their power and influence." ~ Leo Tolstoy

For me, Tolstoy is speaking of "Nationbuilding" not just in the foreign policy realm but in the domestic realm as well! Randolph Borne said, "War is the health of the State" and IMO it matters not if that war is "war on terrorism", "war on al queada", "war on communism" or the domestic kind of "war on drugs", "war on proverty" or "war on illiteracy" but in any case, the problem is never really solved as it just morphs into another "enemy" so what the state has gained and built is protected and those private interests who have latched on for purely economic reasons can in truth "grow the business" and thus the state's power with it. Once one understands the real nature of non-free market capitalism and how big gov't can't exist without it or vica versa, the whole left/right smoke and mirrors starts to come crashing down. Both right and left coming to oppose nationbuilding and speak out against is IMO just one example of that awakening.

 

[moreluck]

This guy is nuts. How does he keep a straight face.....??

http://realclearpolitics.com/video/...heirs_thats_a_national_resource_its_ours.html

 

[Lue C Fur]

This guy is nuts. How does he keep a straight face.....??

http://realclearpolitics.com/video/...heirs_thats_a_national_resource_its_ours.html

Typical Hollywood Liberal. One day he will be munching on a box of his fat pills (Donuts) and have a massive coronary. If he survives he can go to Cuba for their excellent healthcare and Castro will come vist him.

 

[rod]

So you don't think the rich should be taxed at a fair rate? I'm not saying I have drank the M.Moore kool-aid (no I don't think their money belongs to everyone) but he makes a good point about taxing it.. I hear a few friends of mine who I consider to be well off brag all the time about all the loopholes and writeoffs that they are allowed. A person who drives an $80,000 Cadillac Escalade and lives in a 3 million dollar house should have to claim more than $11,000 in personal income for the year. I was just with him at a casino last week and he won a $1,200 jack pot on a slot machine and actually complained that since they made him sign an IRS form to get it he would have to claim it on taxes.

 

[moreluck]

So you don't think the rich should be taxed at a fair rate? I'm not saying I have drank the M.Moore kool-aid (no I don't think their money belongs to everyone) but he makes a good point about taxing it.. I hear a few friends of mine who I consider to be well off brag all the time about all the loopholes and writeoffs that they are allowed. A person who drives an $80,000 Cadillac Escalade and lives in a 3 million dollar house should have to claim more than $11,000 in personal income for the year. I was just with him at a casino last week and he won a $1,200 jack pot on a slot machine and actually complained that since they made him sign an IRS form to get it he would have to claim it on taxes.

He has to claim winnings, but he can also write off losings up to that $1200 amount.

By the way I don't see old "$20 million paycheck" Mikey handing over his finite dollars to others.

 

[trplnkl]

To me the personal tax rate should be the same for everyone. In small, individually owned and operated business i.e., one that the owner pays no employees, would be considered a personal income and they pay the same taxes as anyone else. No more loopholes for them than for anyone else.

My daughter is a cosmetologist and is self employed as such, her tax rate % is higher than mine was when I was driving @ UPS. She has to also pay into the SS/medicare twice what an employee getting a pay check pays in deductions. I can assure you she doesn't make $250K per year.

 

[trplnkl]

He has to claim winnings, but he can also write off losings up to that $1200 amount.

By the way I don't see old "$20 million paycheck" Mikey handing over his finite dollars to others.

On gambling losses, I thought you had to have something like a grand in documented losses before you could deduct them? How would one document losses on a slot machine?

You better believe MM takes full advantages just like the guy Rod was talking about.

 

[Lue C Fur]

So you don't think the rich should be taxed at a fair rate? (What do you consider fair?)

I'm not saying I have drank the M.Moore kool-aid (no I don't think their money belongs to everyone) but he makes a good point about taxing it.. I hear a few friends of mine who I consider to be well off brag all the time about all the loopholes and writeoffs that they are allowed.
Out tax system no doubt, needs reform. Its full of loop holes for everyone. I made a decent amount last year and i had so many deductions i started to feel guilty...just for a few seconds. LOL. I dont feel its right to make someone pay more just because they are rich. Its like penalizing someone because they worked hard and are sucessful. Why should that person have to pay more? As long as its fair for everyone. I think many people are jealous because someone makes or has more than they do. So what is fair?

Just an example: I was on a picket line a few years ago and a person walked by and complained that they only make 12bucks and hour and i should be ashamed by how much i make. My response should have been: "i got good grades in school, stayed out of trouble, went in the military, got more education and learned a trade and that is why i make what i do, it was not just given to me." Instead i was polite and said i hope things get better for you. I knew who she was and where she worked so i knew her background. She had a GED and was a file clerk. Now why was she complaining? Should i complain that my doctor is paid 300k a year? He spent 10years or more in school and worked his way up. Should he be taxed more cause he makes more?

A person who drives an $80,000 Cadillac Escalade (ugly boat...LOL) and lives in a 3 million dollar house should have to claim more than $11,000 in personal income for the year. I agree and would love to see what he is writing off and getting away with. Maybe he was just BSing you?

I once owned a business and when i saw that i would have to pay the govt alot of tax on my income i would go to office depot and purchase new chairs, desks, printers, etc. I figured why pay the govt when i can get new items for the bussiness and its a tax writeoff. Would you have done the same...be honest.

I was just with him at a casino last week and he won a $1,200 jack pot on a slot machine and actually complained that since they made him sign an IRS form to get it he would have to claim it on taxes.
It sucks to hear a rich person complain about paying taxes but do you like giving your money to a govt that is corrupt and irresponsible with your tax dollars? I try to keep every dollar i make out of the hands of the govt fat cats.

 

[wkmac]

Going back to what Island said in regards to nationbuilding and the counterpoint to his analysis which IMO was nothing more than a straw man fallacy, this past week Jack Hunter aka Southern Avenger over at The American Conservative addressed this straw man argument and did so very well I might add.
[video=youtube;Rgisza020ZM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgisza020ZM&feature=player_embedded#at=176[/video]

As for Michael Moore, he is correct in that large sums of money were generated with tax payer backing and transferred to certain large interests who now sit of that cash or so it's believed. Another school however wonders if those monies were in fact transferred to offshore banking interests to shore them up, thus the reason the likes of Ron Paul and Alan Grayson continued to pound Federal Reserve minions about where monies went and the need to audit.

Many people argue that folks on welfare pay no taxes and therefore should recieve no benefit and on some level I understand the merit of it. Yet many of those same folks while advocating for a 0% percent tax rate for corporations would also never stand up and declare that these "productive freeloaders" shouldn't get a free ride either. On several levels, corp. taxation is a pure sham and at best only symbolic (workers and consumer pay all form and manner of taxation) but instead of taking the Moore approach and only increasing the symbolic tax rate (more burden on workers and consumers), why not like the other end of the welfare spectrum, just cut the corporations completely off from any and all state subsidy. Make their tax rate 0% not unlike the bottom end of the economic spectrum but no more welfare for the corporations either. No more tax credits written into the tax code for consumers who buy their products, an intervention that skews the true cost of the product onto the backs of taxpayers I might add. No more price supports of any kind or other special privilege. No more access to writting sweetheart legislation by industry lobbyists and think tank wonks. Let corporations pay their own way because for all practical purposes, they are tax exempt now. Oh yes, you want to end regulations, great because you'll also end all the regulations that in truth act an entry barriers and allow certain existing business and industry to enjoy a gov't invoke protected status by keeping the free market at bay. Let the FedEx's and the UPS's of the world build their own airports and other means of transport infrastructure.

Wonder why Moore and OTHERS don't ever even hint of going in that direction? Hmmmm!

Come to think of it, I wonder what regulations and legal policy act as entry barriers to up and coming film makers that in turn gives Mr. Moore a very nice comfort zone in which to operate while also not have to worry about real competition? A couple of years ago, I watched a documentary made about Moore by an up and coming film maker and what Moore sez in the way of openness and transparency, when it comes to himself is obviously not the same thing. If I can ever find the film, I'll link it because it's an absolute must see and you'll see a very different side of Mr. Michael Moore.

 

[trplnkl]

Going back to what Island said in regards to nationbuilding and the counterpoint to his analysis which IMO was nothing more than a straw man fallacy, this past week Jack Hunter aka Southern Avenger over at The American Conservative addressed this straw man argument and did so very well I might add.
[video=youtube;Rgisza020ZM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rgisza020ZM&feature=player_embedded#at=176[/video]

As for Michael Moore, he is correct in that large sums of money were generated with tax payer backing and transferred to certain large interests who now sit of that cash or so it's believed. Another school however wonders if those monies were in fact transferred to offshore banking interests to shore them up, thus the reason the likes of Ron Paul and Alan Grayson continued to pound Federal Reserve minions about where monies went and the need to audit.

Many people argue that folks on welfare pay no taxes and therefore should recieve no benefit and on some level I understand the merit of it. Yet many of those same folks while advocating for a 0% percent tax rate for corporations would also never stand up and declare that these "productive freeloaders" shouldn't get a free ride either. On several levels, corp. taxation is a pure sham and at best only symbolic (workers and consumer pay all form and manner of taxation) but instead of taking the Moore approach and only increasing the symbolic tax rate (more burden on workers and consumers), why not like the other end of the welfare spectrum, just cut the corporations completely off from any and all state subsidy. Make their tax rate 0% not unlike the bottom end of the economic spectrum but no more welfare for the corporations either. No more tax credits written into the tax code for consumers who buy their products, an intervention that skews the true cost of the product onto the backs of taxpayers I might add. No more price supports of any kind or other special privilege. No more access to writting sweetheart legislation by industry lobbyists and think tank wonks. Let corporations pay their own way because for all practical purposes, they are tax exempt now. Oh yes, you want to end regulations, great because you'll also end all the regulations that in truth act an entry barriers and allow certain existing business and industry to enjoy a gov't invoke protected status by keeping the free market at bay. Let the FedEx's and the UPS's of the world build their own airports and other means of transport infrastructure.

Wonder why Moore and OTHERS don't ever even hint of going in that direction? Hmmmm!

Come to think of it, I wonder what regulations and legal policy act as entry barriers to up and coming film makers that in turn gives Mr. Moore a very nice comfort zone in which to operate while also not have to worry about real competition? A couple of years ago, I watched a documentary made about Moore by an up and coming film maker and what Moore sez in the way of openness and transparency, when it comes to himself is obviously not the same thing. If I can ever find the film, I'll link it because it's an absolute must see and you'll see a very different side of Mr. Michael Moore.

I hope you find that link, I'm sure it is interesting but doubt I will be surprised. I'm pretty sure they could use MM's picture in the dictionary under the word" Hypocrite".

Since we are discussing taxes...what is you take on the "consumer tax" replacing the income tax structure?

 

[Lue C Fur]

Wonder why Moore and OTHERS don't ever even hint of going in that direction? Hmmmm!

Come to think of it, I wonder what regulations and legal policy act as entry barriers to up and coming film makers that in turn gives Mr. Moore a very nice comfort zone in which to operate while also not have to worry about real competition? A couple of years ago, I watched a documentary made about Moore by an up and coming film maker and what Moore sez in the way of openness and transparency, when it comes to himself is obviously not the same thing. If I can ever find the film, I'll link it because it's an absolute must see and you'll see a very different side of Mr. Michael Moore.

Are you saying Moore is a Hypocrite...no way. LOL.

 

[moreluck]

To me the personal tax rate should be the same for everyone. In small, individually owned and operated business i.e., one that the owner pays no employees, would be considered a personal income and they pay the same taxes as anyone else. No more loopholes for them than for anyone else.

My daughter is a cosmetologist and is self employed as such, her tax rate % is higher than mine was when I was driving @ UPS. She has to also pay into the SS/medicare twice what an employee getting a pay check pays in deductions. I can assure you she doesn't make $250K per year.

I've got no [problem with all paying the same % in taxes.....but Michael wants Moore......if you have $100 and he has $50, he wants you to give him $25 so you both have $75.......That's the "C" word !!!

 

[Babagounj]

Michael Moore should be the poster boy for Michelle Obama's campaign against fat Americans

 

[moreluck]

On gambling losses, I thought you had to have something like a grand in documented losses before you could deduct them? How would one document losses on a slot machine?

You better believe MM takes full advantages just like the guy Rod was talking about.

You pay taxes after $1199.00 (I think)
The casinos make it very easy......use the VIP player cards that every casino offers for free and your spending/playing is tracked. Everything is dated and time stamped....play a keno game and you get a ticket (date & time stamped) Keep your eating receipts to show you were at the casino. I win $7000 or $14000 and I have at least that amount in losses on a 5 day trip. The only time you don't have a case is when you put a dollar in a machine, win tons of money and leave the casino. Then just smile and pay the taxes on it.

 

[Lue C Fur]

My wife won 1000.00 bucks on a slot machine in SC or NC (cant remember what Carolina) about 10 years ago after playing just a few minutes. We were told since it was not over 1000.00 that we did not have to worry about taxes and they just handed her 10 crispy 100.00 dollar bills. We walked out 5 mins later and had a nice dinner.

 

[moreluck]

Yeah, you have to exceed $1199 before you have to fill out paperwork for Uncle Sam. They used to have slots where the big jackpot was $1199 so you wouldn't have to pay taxes.

 

[rod]

I guess I can't understand why you should be able to write off any of your gambling losses. Thats why they call it gambling. If you win over say $1000 dollars an automatic 10 or 15 % should be taken from it and thrown into the "for Uncle Sam" pile.

 

[moreluck]

The losses ONLY can be written off against winnings.....not just out of the clear blue...

ie: if you lose $13000.00 and in doing so, you win $2000.oo.....you can only write off $2000.00 of your losses.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html

 

[Lue C Fur]

The losses ONLY can be written off against winnings.....not just out of the clear blue...

My father saves all his loser Powerball tickets so he says he can use them as a tax writeoff if he its the big one. I just laugh cause if you hit 100 Mill then what does 50 bucks really do to the taxes you owe. Gotta love it.