Orion warning letters

[10 point]

I only have one identity. And mine doesn't include whining everyday like you and others. That's why I quit posting and I am done again. Just had to see what the other whinner was talking about. See ya

You getting Alzheimer's?
I was quoting YOU whining about dues paying members.
Lead by example...not just words.

By the way...
I vote and try to stay involved regardless of the consequences of not being a spineless yes man.
That takes more courage than the alternative.
What do I gain by that? Probably nothing but every situation in life can be a stepping stone or a stumbling stone. You choose.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

You are usually right about contractual language and give good advice.

Thanks for the compliment.

My advice, is based on "real world" experience.


And for the record, I'm not telling anyone.... to do anything.

Mature adults can make up their own mind.

You wonder why people don't push issues of termination and being "made whole" to the panels (that was Stonefish's question)???

Because of "some locals" representation.

It's easier just to work as directed than to bank on support from two faced representation when you stick your neck out for principal.

I am trying to get a grasp, on what you are saying.


Correct me if I am wrong.

But.... on a (justifiable) discharge case...

An employee would be reinstated and "made whole" if they just pursued it ?

Help me out.



-Bug-

 

[upsbeernut]

I am not trying to be argumentative, but if you are instructed to follow a set percentage of ORION, then that is your job. Your job is not to make good business decisions. Your job is to work as instructed.

I only say this because the union will not back you up. They will say you have to work as instructed unless it is immoral, illegal or unsafe.

And for reference for anyone who doesn't know, UPS does not need your signature on a warning letter. They just need to give it to you, or mail it to your house.

Your only option is to grieve it. And, in this case, you will lose.

Follow the percentage they want you to follow and you will make a lot of money. If everyone in the country did this, they would pay out more in unaccounted for OT than they did this past quarter.

The stock would take another big hit and ORION would be shut off. At least for the time being.

Why do we have to suffer with it? So far in our center no one can make that straight line distance measuring mileage. I run it like Orion ,but not their setup. Cant reach over all that stuff to get to the 7000 shelf. Im gonna beat it.

 

[upsbeernut]

In my opinion, they screwed up buying it therefore if the stockholders find out its not working along with the public's negative view, the stock will drop. No one will take the blame so they stuck both feet in their mouth and cramming it down our throats is all they have.

 

[tourists24]

Not really.

UPS can implement an 85% ORION compliance policy. It is not a contractual violation. Policy is now in place.

The problem arises trying to enforce the policy. How do you know what percentage of ORION you are running? There lies the problem.

If UPS puts a running cummulative percentage of ORION on the DIADS, and they tell you to maintain 85% and you aren`t even close to 85% without a good reason like breaking off so as to not have missed business, they can then enforce failure to follow.

Telling UPS that you did not follow ORION because it was not the "sensible" way to run the route, could get you a warning letter and start progressive discipline.

UPS could tell you to run ORION and only break off to avoid any service failures and then go right back to ORION so as to maintain at least an 85% compliance.

You have to work as directed and there is no contractual violation.

Your only option is to get on the 9.5 list, because you will be working long hours.

this is exactly the point when I would start running 100% compliant....

 

[tourists24]

...unless they mandate a minimum Orion trace percentage...

Our center is supposed to go live w/Orion in September. I noticed on Friday that they started printing a report showing our trace percentage and the number of times that we broke trace. 70% seemed to be the threshold as anyone who ran 70% or more had their percentage bold printed while those who were below did not. I was right around 71%.

our center focuses on 85%... others 90.... it gets stupid if you cant talk to your management folks and work out the kinks

 

[10 point]

Thanks for the compliment.

My advice, is based on "real world" experience.


And for the record, I'm not telling anyone.... to do anything.

Mature adults can make up their own mind.



I am trying to get a grasp, on what you are saying.


Correct me if I am wrong.

But.... on a (justifiable) discharge case...

An employee would be reinstated and "made whole" if they just pursued it ?

Help me out.



-Bug-

Involving an unjustified termination only....where the employee exhausts the whole process and takes a stand on principal trusting that the truth will prevail.

 

[Bubblehead]

I am trying to get a grasp, on what you are saying.


Correct me if I am wrong.

But.... on a (justifiable) discharge case...

An employee would be reinstated and "made whole" if they just pursued it ?

Help me out.



-Bug-

I'll take a stab....and where you may have got off track....is that 10 point was most likely referring to an (unjust) discharge case.

You know...the cases where the company throws crap against the wall to see what sticks and then isn't held accountable in the form of back pay....by either the local agents.....or the panel.

Can't count how many times that I have been out in the hallway with someone who hasn't met the standard for discharge....who is then put to the decision of whether to "roll the dice" with further monetary loss by taking it forward....or accepting the company's offer of discharge, reduced to suspension.

Let's see....eat the turd burger and go back to work with the 3-5 days of lost pay to date....or go for what's behind door #2 in three and a half weeks at the panel....where the best the select few seem to get is a split baby?

I'm forced to tell them I would most likely go for what is behind door #2, but won't think any less of them if they don't.

And thus, the "whole" is exposed in the system.

 

[10 point]

I am quoting someone who questions why employees that are unjustly taken out of service for termination don't have the spine or faith to see it all the way through.
This is not a blanket condemnation of the union or representatives thereof.

But it is very parallel to watching your children learn to walk. Do they trust in you to catch them if they fall? Trust in the system starts with trust being built between your local, BA, and the stewards you work with.

It is very much a local trust issue at the root. You can fill in the blanks from there.

 

[Mugarolla]

this is exactly the point when I would start running 100% compliant....

We work for UPS. UPS makes policy. The union only negotiates working conditions and monetary issues.

The union cannot tell UPS that drivers do not have to follow ORION at 100%

The company makes the rules, and as long as they do not violate the contract, we have to follow the rules.

In the case of ORION, the only working conditions that the union has negotiated is 9.5

Follow ORION at 100% and get on the 9.5 list. UPS will have to take stops off of you.

It is not our job or the unions to make UPS stop using ORION because it takes longer to get done.

You can tell them, but the big wigs don't seem to care.

Ultimately, we must work as directed, and ORION is not a contractual violation.

If everyone followed it as UPS wants, they would have so much unaccounted for overtime that the stock would lose another 10% and UPS would shut off ORION until they get it better...if that is even possible.

 

[Areyoukiddinme]

i agree with you Muqarolla when you give ups what they demand it costs them more. when they forced nda delivery before any other it always through off the day as well as sent my bulk stops into a frenzy. a few days of that and some customer call ins and i was back to my way of doing the route. so in my case they got what they asked for which lead to complaints which forced them to allow me to make decisions(problem solved)

 

[Mugarolla]

i agree with you Muqarolla when you give ups what they demand it costs them more. when they forced nda delivery before any other it always through off the day as well as sent my bulk stops into a frenzy. a few days of that and some customer call ins and i was back to my way of doing the route. so in my case they got what they asked for which lead to complaints which forced them to allow me to make decisions(problem solved)

The same will happen with ORION, otherwise they won't have much of a company left to run ORION.

I know there is an ulterior motive for ORION, but the company may not survive long enough to implement those ulterior motives if they push compliance.

They will spend too much overtime and extra people and piss off too many customers.

And to think, David Abney, the current CEO, came from the "ranks."

He is in the process of putting ORION before the good of the company.

 

[10 point]

The same will happen with ORION, otherwise they won't have much of a company left to run ORION.

I know there is an ulterior motive for ORION, but the company may not survive long enough to implement those ulterior motives if they push compliance.

They will spend too much overtime and extra people and piss off too many customers.

And to think, David Abney, the current CEO, came from the "ranks."

He is in the process of putting ORION before the good of the company.

If, they'll endure all these service failures and customer churn there's a larger underlying motive.
True.

Only time will tell. Hopefully, we'll have leadership at the top of the IBT that's not afraid to deal with the Trojan Horse.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

Involving an unjustified termination only....where the employee exhausts the whole process and takes a stand on principal trusting that the truth will prevail.

What do you consider "unjustified" ?

I'll take a stab....and where you may have got off track....is that 10 point was most likely referring to an (unjust) discharge case.

You know...the cases where the company throws crap against the wall to see what sticks and then isn't held accountable in the form of back pay....by either the local agents.....or the panel.

Can't count how many times that I have been out in the hallway with someone who hasn't met the standard for discharge....who is then put to the decision of whether to "roll the dice" with further monetary loss by taking it forward....or accepting the company's offer of discharge, reduced to suspension.

Let's see....eat the turd burger and go back to work with the 3-5 days of lost pay to date....or go for what's behind door #2 in three and a half weeks at the panel....where the best the select few seem to get is a split baby?

I'm forced to tell them I would most likely go for what is behind door #2, but won't think any less of them if they don't.

And thus, the "whole" is exposed in the system.

Again.... what is unjust ?

I'm just trying to understand what (some people) think that is.


We all can agree, sometimes it's BS.

A steward can tell the grievant (in his opinion) it's BS.


As a representative of the Local, a (smart) BA won't offer a personal opinion.

And legally.... any offer the company makes to reduce a discharge....

A BA must present to the grievant, and let them decide.


I can think of $100,000 reasons why.

It happened to my Local.

And why.... we had a very strict "policy" on handling discharge cases.



-Bug-

 

[5habits100]

What do you consider "unjustified" ?



Again.... what is unjust ?

I'm just trying to understand what (some people) think that is.


We all can agree, sometimes it's BS.

A steward can tell the grievant (in his opinion) it's BS.


As a representative of the Local, a (smart) BA won't offer a personal opinion.

And legally.... any offer the company makes to reduce a discharge....

A BA must present to the grievant, and let them decide.


I can think of $100,000 reasons why.

It happened to my Local.

And why.... we had a very strict "policy" on handling discharge cases.



-Bug-

I agree with you on what is unjust. Listening to all of the facts in the discharge case may change from what everyone on the floor hears.

However I disagree with you that one is legally required to tell the grievant of the offer. It is the locals grievance. The union is not required to pursue a grievance where a member did something so egregious they would never get their job back. With that being said I think that it is a good practice to ask.

 

[10 point]

I agree with you on what is unjust. Listening to all of the facts in the discharge case may change from what everyone on the floor hears.

However I disagree with you that one is legally required to tell the grievant of the offer. It is the locals grievance. The union is not required to pursue a grievance where a member did something so egregious they would never get their job back. With that being said I think that it is a good practice to ask.

Stonefish's post said that if the employee is right they should fight for it. The post was about going to the panel.
So 5 habits says it's not the employee's call.
So many experts. So many different answers. Too many confused members.

There are various abuses of article 17 by as many supes that want to make an impression on an employee. Stretch the interpretation for 17i as far as you can. You know the way the game's played BUG. Delay, defer, and drain their finances for 10 plus days. You've never seen 17i stretched to pound on an employee who isn't a sheep in regards to contract violations?

 

[BigUnionGuy]

However I disagree with you that one is legally required to tell the grievant of the offer. It is the locals grievance. The union is not required to pursue a grievance where a member did something so egregious they would never get their job back.

Maybe, where you are at.

Is your Local involved with a Panel system.... or, just arbitration ?

There are various abuses of article 17 by as many supes that want to make an impression on an employee. Stretch the interpretation for 17i as far as you can. You know the way the game's played BUG. Delay, defer, and drain their finances for 10 plus days. You've never seen 17i stretched to pound on an employee who isn't a sheep in regards to contract violations?

I can't disagree, with previous abuses of 17-I.

But.... there is always more to the story.



-Bug-

 

[10 point]

Maybe, where you are at.

Is your Local involved with a Panel system.... or, just arbitration ?



I can't disagree, with previous abuses of 17-I.

But.... there is always more to the story.



-Bug-

BUG.....sometimes there's no more to the story too.

I've been the victim. I know.
We're often surprised by things people have done and that are exposed later. I agree.
But it's not always that way.

The sad part of being a BA (and not have worked at UPS) is that you see mainly the mistakes made by employees... some are pretty dumb and/or shocking...but the vast majority of hourly are great people who desperately want to believe their local and panel(s) have their back when a simple mistake is made.
Don't let what you typically see become a "norm" in your mind because it is not.

 

[Bubblehead]

But.... there is always more to the story.

According to who?

Because the company.....is above board.....and beyond reproach?

Who's side are you supposed....and paid....to be on?

How "convienient" that claim must be....there is "always" more to the story.

 

[Brownslave688]

According to who?

Because the company.....is above board.....and beyond reproach?

Who's side are you supposed....and paid....to be on?

How "convienient" that claim must be....there is "always" more to the story.

Sure the more to the story may be that your boss ed up but he can't let his boss know he ed up so you get blamed.

I was fired for one of these before. Steward and business agent immediately said enjoy your 3 day weekend. You'll be back Monday.

How about enjoy your 3 day weekend don't worry we will get you paid for today?