RTW passes in Michigan

[Justaname]

Per the national master, you are making 11.87 after 4 years. To make $20 at 10, you'd need a $1.35 raise / year. We don't get anything near that. Here's another reality check for you: Do you think Wal-mart employees do anywhere near the amount of work or are under anywhere near the constant pressure of making production that that UPS employees are? Do you think they're yelled at or threatened because they had one misload? Do you think they deal with anything like the chaos we deal with on a daily basis? Are their hours anywhere near as extreme and inflexible as ours?

I happen to work beside some of the finest, hard-working, intelligent men and women I know. To claim I or they wouldn't "make it" at costco's knowing the **** we put up with is insulting. But if you want to reduce the capability of your preload and future drivers, if you do want to fill it with people that wouldn't make it at Costco's, by all means continue letting UPS's starting wage fall further and further behind inflation.

You would be correct. although Costco expects a lot from its employees, it's 1/2 of what ups expects from theirs. However I've seen 2 people hired and let go in their probation period and both came from Walmart in my 2 years at Costco. Bottom line both companies are paid the best because we are the best.

 

[Nimnim]

My numbers are indeed correct. After 10 years, I was banking close to $20/hour. I haven't been here much longer than that...

It may be true a couple contracts ago, but if someone started under this new one, it won't even be close because of such low raises in comparison to the last ones.

 

[brown_trousers]

Per the national master, you are making 11.87 after 4 years. To make $20 at 10, you'd need a $1.35 raise / year. We don't get anything near that.

Exactly! The NMA doent lie when it spells out PT wages. $20 an hour at 10 years just isnt going to happen. PTers have taken some pretty large paycuts over the years to fall so far below that mark

 

[Bagels]

Per the national master, you are making 11.87 after 4 years. To make $20 at 10, you'd need a $1.35 raise / year. We don't get anything near that. Here's another reality check for you: Do you think Wal-mart employees do anywhere near the amount of work or are under anywhere near the constant pressure of making production that that UPS employees are? Do you think they're yelled at or threatened because they had one misload? Do you think they deal with anything like the chaos we deal with on a daily basis? Are their hours anywhere near as extreme and inflexible as ours?

I happen to work beside some of the finest, hard-working, intelligent men and women I know. To claim I or they wouldn't "make it" at costco's knowing the **** we put up with is insulting. But if you want to reduce the capability of your preload and future drivers, if you do want to fill it with people that wouldn't make it at Costco's, by all means continue letting UPS's starting wage fall further and further behind inflation.

Your rate of pay will be affected based upon your date of employment. Once you achieve seniority, you follow the wage increase schedule of the new contract once it takes effect. Thus, those who hire shortly before a new contract is signed bank much stronger wages after 10 years than those who began their careers shortly after a new contract was signed.

Secondly, I was comparing Walmart employees to Whole Foods & Costco employees: because the latter paid premium wages, they hold leverage in selecting the best employees compared to the former. (And if you want to be nit-picky, I'm writing this as a generalization. No question Walmart employees some excellent "talent," especially in many rural southern regions where there's simply no competition.) If UPS were to increase its starting PT wage, it too would hold leverage in attracting & choosing top "talent." There are plenty of PTers who do the bare minimum to get by... with higher wages, UPS would have the luxury of imposing high starting standards (PPH for unloaders, loaders, bags per minute for small sort, etc.) that many current PTers wouldn't have been able, and still may be unable, to achieve.

I doubt you'll find many companies that don't impose pressure for some type of production standard (which will vary), and don't retort to yelling and threatening. But I'll tell you this: in the 10+ years I've been here, not a single part-timer I've worked with has EVER lost his/her job for misloads. They've received warnings, served suspensions, been pulled from service... but ultimately, they've been returned to work in some sort of other capacity (moved to unload, small sort, etc.) That would clearly change if UPS was in position of paying its PTers premium wages.

Might want to do a little reading on the Walmart culture. They have these morning Ooh Rah meetings just like something out of Gung Ho, won't pay you sick pay unless you are sick for two consecutive days, screw them every year on profit sharing, and pretty much just keep them where they are at without hope of promotion. The warehouse operations are no different in the workloads & production pressure than other similar operations like Costco except that the pay is more than 30% less.

In early 2009, Walmart had numerous billboards throughout the Reno/Sparks region advertising immediate openings paying $17/hour + company paid benefits for its distribution operation -- so I suspect these are a completely different animal from the rest of the company.

 

[104Feeder]

In early 2009, Walmart had numerous billboards throughout the Reno/Sparks region advertising immediate openings paying $17/hour + company paid benefits for its distribution operation -- so I suspect these are a completely different animal from the rest of the company.

I'm sure in some areas they are forced to pay competitive wages just to staff their operations, much like a McDonalds near my house was advertising $11/hr for full time day shift work + benefits. I can't even get a teenager to mow my lawn around here so I'm sure they have trouble finding one to flip burgers. What Walmart/Sam's Club likes to do is keep you under 37 hours so you don't come close to friend/T or overtime & they don't have to pay benefits. I have a close friend who worked for Sam's for years and I was always trying to tell her she was being screwed. She finally got out and saw the light herself. It's not because people who work there are stupid or uneducated, it's because some people just naturally take the past of least resistance & tend to believe what people in power over them tell them without seeking out the truth for themselves.

 

[Macbrother]

Your rate of pay will be affected based upon your date of employment. Once you achieve seniority, you follow the wage increase schedule of the new contract once it takes effect. Thus, those who hire shortly before a new contract is signed bank much stronger wages after 10 years than those who began their careers shortly after a new contract was signed.

No disagreement here, PTers have pretty much went backwards with every single recent contract.

Secondly, I was comparing Walmart employees to Whole Foods & Costco employees: because the latter paid premium wages, they hold leverage in selecting the best employees compared to the former. (And if you want to be nit-picky, I'm writing this as a generalization. No question Walmart employees some excellent "talent," especially in many rural southern regions where there's simply no competition.) If UPS were to increase its starting PT wage, it too would hold leverage in attracting & choosing top "talent." There are plenty of PTers who do the bare minimum to get by... with higher wages, UPS would have the luxury of imposing high starting standards (PPH for unloaders, loaders, bags per minute for small sort, etc.) that many current PTers wouldn't have been able, and still may be unable, to achieve.

I doubt you'll find many companies that don't impose pressure for some type of production standard (which will vary), and don't retort to yelling and threatening. But I'll tell you this: in the 10+ years I've been here, not a single part-timer I've worked with has EVER lost his/her job for misloads. They've received warnings, served suspensions, been pulled from service... but ultimately, they've been returned to work in some sort of other capacity (moved to unload, small sort, etc.) That would clearly change if UPS was in position of paying its PTers premium wages.

I'm sorry, but this part, on the other hand, is nonsense. I think we can all agree drivers make "premium" wages. How many of them are fired over production / overallowed? Not making 9.5? Where's the extra "leverage" the company has over them, that you say, will come with higher wages? As I have said before -- UPS already, as it is, squeezes every nickel out of preload they can possibly get, using the absolute minimum, every day, to run their operation. And people wonder why there's boxes stacked out all over the place and still coming down the belt at 8:30. All higher wages do is actually make pay commensurate with what we actually do and reflect the unique workload and inflexible hours. You don't think they use the 30 day hiring period to weed out people that can't come close to their absurd production requirements?

You don't think there are drivers that do the absolute minimum just to get by? When I driver helped last year you should've heard the complaints about two drivers in particular who were always dispatched with less stops and always needed help at the end of the day; these same drivers would call my guy 20 times a day asking for help to find addresses for routes they'd been doing over a month. So please, spare me the company "leverage" line, huh?

Might want to do a little reading on the Walmart culture. They have these morning Ooh Rah meetings just like something out of Gung Ho, won't pay you sick pay unless you are sick for two consecutive days, screw them every year on profit sharing, and pretty much just keep them where they are at without hope of promotion. The warehouse operations are no different in the workloads & production pressure than other similar operations like Costco except that the pay is more than 30% less

Before I worked at UPS I worked for many years as an independent merchandiser, for a local dairy company. Our biggest customer was Walmart, which I serviced almost daily. So I got to work right beside and get to know many of the employees there -- most of them good, hard-working people. But pretending, even for a second, that what is asked of them is the same that's asked of a preloader is willful ignorance for the sake of arguement or someone that hasn't worked the sort for a very, very long time. I suspect a bit of both. As for the warehouse operation (which may actually be comparable in terms of workload, I can't say) their average starting pay is significantly higher. Not even comparable. As for their bizarre "ooh rah" meetings... well, I had a friend who's mother used to work there and heard the same from them.. I always dismissed it as rumor/myth. If that's the case, they indeed have fostered quite a cult over there.

 

[Bagels]

I'm sorry, but this part, on the other hand, is nonsense. I think we can all agree drivers make "premium" wages. How many of them are fired over production / overallowed? Not making 9.5? Where's the extra "leverage" the company has over them, that you say, will come with higher wages?

Sorry, but reality isn't nonsense. As I mentioned earlier, the company would hold leverage during the probationary period. There's a healthy number of drivers cut during their probationary period (it may not be as noticeable right now since most positions are being filled by PTers with many years driving experience) vs. virtually no Preloaders being cut during their probationary periods. This past summer, we had several seasonals with various performance/attendance issues and ALL were offered a permanent job. And in any given year, more drivers get fired than the total number of PTers have in my entire career. Enforce significant wage hikes on PTers, and all this will change. New hire who can't unload a 28' trailer consistently in less than an hour? Gone. Incumbent SPA person inverts PAL labels or Preloader with a misload problem? Fired, with no chance of returning. And sure, while the union doesn't yet recognize production, with constant management scrutiny of PTers, they can invent reasons for dismissal: if you're a bulk train driver who isn't filling up your train & working quick enough, you'll be fired if you miss bulk tape on more than one package, etc.

I, too, would like to see higher wages but my point is that there are MANY PTers who benefit from the current system; persons who would've never been retained during their probationary period are able to grow & develop over time and progress into driving. Others cling onto PT positions indefinitely while doing the bare minimum to get by.

As I have said before -- UPS already, as it is, squeezes every nickel out of preload they can possibly get, using the absolute minimum, every day, to run their operation. And people wonder why there's boxes stacked out all over the place and still coming down the belt at 8:30. All higher wages do is actually make pay commensurate with what we actually do and reflect the unique workload and inflexible hours. You don't think they use the 30 day hiring period to weed out people that can't come close to their absurd production requirements?

LOL, we work hard but few employees work even close to their full ability - typically the attitude is "I get paid by the hour." If the Company had a line of people ready, willing & able to take your job, and therefore began firing aggressively, watch how quickly productivity would improve. Kinda like the 18-year-old baggers at Minimum Wage Grocery Store catching a cigarette on the clock while they're suppose to be getting carts -- typically, Minimum Wage will endure some type of tolerance as it knows the kids' replacement will behave the same. But Whole Foods or Costco would fire them immediately.

You don't think there are drivers that do the absolute minimum just to get by?

There are very few of these types. Frequently running over is one thing, but being unable to complete your day (vs. expediting your clock-in time) without somebody coming to assist you is another. These guys typically get followed, harassed, etc. until the Company finds something to fire them for. And believe me, the Company will try -- even if they have to more than once.

But pretending, even for a second, that what is asked of [Walmart employees] is the same that's asked of a preloader is willful ignorance for the sake of arguement or someone that hasn't worked the sort for a very, very long time. I suspect a bit of both.

This is the third time that I've had to mention that I was comparing Walmart employees to those of Whole Foods and Costco.

No disagreement here, PTers have pretty much went backwards with every single recent contract.

PTers went backward in the early 1980s, and have been stagnant ever since -- with the exception of a couple contracts providing "catch-up" raises. The last contract was certainly not "backwards" -- it provided a PPO option/prescription card to PTers, the former which has saved me a lot of money (the out-of-network rates remain unchanged). Sure, it took away health insurance benefits from new hires for one-year - but given the high turnover rate, as well as the number of PTers who would have surgery that kept them out long-term just months after their employment began (would they really attempt this in a professional setting -- e.g. if they were an accountant, accept a new job, then go out on medical leave months later?), it's fair. The only negative was the byproduct in that it must've changed the production models to make it beneficial to use cheap, new labor so that we added quite a few jobs in my center, which had me sitting around waiting for my 3.5 guarantee (vs. collecting 4-4.5 as I did before). The union can change this by requesting a 4-hour guarantee.

- - -

My whole point is in response to those who claim the union does nothing for PT. That's simply untrue. How many no/low-skilled PT jobs exist in which PT employees earn $10.50/hour + no-cost benefits (let alone benefits that are as good as our... such as no-cost prescriptions)? How many no/low-skilled PT jobs give a raise of at least 50c every year? Compare that to those paying union dues for the Kroger Company (Kroger, Ralph's, Smiths, Fred Meyer, etc.) Honestly, what the heck does the union do -- those people make nearly identical wages to Walmart employees, with just as skimpy paid time off. About the only thing the union is good for is ensuring FT promotions are done based upon seniority.

 

[Macbrother]

Sorry, but reality isn't nonsense. As I mentioned earlier, the company would hold leverage during the probationary period. There's a healthy number of drivers cut during their probationary period (it may not be as noticeable right now since most positions are being filled by PTers with many years driving experience) vs. virtually no Preloaders being cut during their probationary periods. This past summer, we had several seasonals with various performance/attendance issues and ALL were offered a permanent job. And in any given year, more drivers get fired than the total number of PTers have in my entire career. Enforce significant wage hikes on PTers, and all this will change. New hire who can't unload a 28' trailer consistently in less than an hour? Gone. Incumbent SPA person inverts PAL labels or Preloader with a misload problem? Fired, with no chance of returning. And sure, while the union doesn't yet recognize production, with constant management scrutiny of PTers, they can invent reasons for dismissal: if you're a bulk train driver who isn't filling up your train & working quick enough, you'll be fired if you miss bulk tape on more than one package, etc.

They already hold leverage during the training period; complete, and absolute. The employee has virtually no rights whatsoever and can be let go at a moments notice, which happens far more often than not. Just because things work a certain way in your center doesn't mean they apply everywhere. We had multiple groups of people attempt to get on preload -- only one person out of those actually made it, for the entire year. Conversely I've never seen a driver not make his 30 day probationary period -- since that would require me to see the company actually hire drivers which they haven't done here in 5 years. Supposedly 5 are getting hired this year, we'll see how that goes. We've had 2 drivers fired in the past 10 years, btw. I don't know how many preloaders but at least one was fired within 2 months of my starting. So really, stop promoting your personal experience as if it were the rule. As far as management "finding ways" to try and fire people and get people in trouble -- LOL -- you really think that doesn't happen already?

I, too, would like to see higher wages but my point is that there are MANY PTers who benefit from the current system; persons who would've never been retained during their probationary period are able to grow & develop over time and progress into driving. Others cling onto PT positions indefinitely while doing the bare minimum to get by.



LOL, we work hard but few employees work even close to their full ability - typically the attitude is "I get paid by the hour." If the Company had a line of people ready, willing & able to take your job, and therefore began firing aggressively, watch how quickly productivity would improve. Kinda like the 18-year-old baggers at Minimum Wage Grocery Store catching a cigarette on the clock while they're suppose to be getting carts -- typically, Minimum Wage will endure some type of tolerance as it knows the kids' replacement will behave the same. But Whole Foods or Costco would fire them immediately.

It's unfortunate your center is filled with sorry, lousy workers. Your supposition is that the rest of us who show up on time and bust our asses off cause that's how we were raised should be held to wages that meet their standards?

There are very few of these types. Frequently running over is one thing, but being unable to complete your day (vs. expediting your clock-in time) without somebody coming to assist you is another. These guys typically get followed, harassed, etc. until the Company finds something to fire them for. And believe me, the Company will try -- even if they have to more than once.

Yeah yeah sure, all the drivers in your facility are great men and the PTer's are bums -- I get it by now.

This is the third time that I've had to mention that I was comparing Walmart employees to those of Whole Foods and Costco.

This was to someone else -- not you. I had hoped the "quote - 104feeder" would've made that clear. My bad.

PTers went backward in the early 1980s, and have been stagnant ever since -- with the exception of a couple contracts providing "catch-up" raises. The last contract was certainly not "backwards" -- it provided a PPO option/prescription card to PTers, the former which has saved me a lot of money (the out-of-network rates remain unchanged). Sure, it took away health insurance benefits from new hires for one-year - but given the high turnover rate, as well as the number of PTers who would have surgery that kept them out long-term just months after their employment began (would they really attempt this in a professional setting -- e.g. if they were an accountant, accept a new job, then go out on medical leave months later?), it's fair. The only negative was the byproduct in that it must've changed the production models to make it beneficial to use cheap, new labor so that we added quite a few jobs in my center, which had me sitting around waiting for my 3.5 guarantee (vs. collecting 4-4.5 as I did before). The union can change this by requesting a 4-hour guarantee.

You know, if the purchasing power of a dollar hadn't changed since 1980, that would be just fine. I wouldn't be complaining one bit about making such a great rate of pay. Unfortunately, there's this little thing called inflation. Every year there is no part-time starting raise we go backward. Now, imagine how much inflation has accrued in 30 years, where the pay has gone up $.50. And hell, they only took away insurance for a year! God forbid something happen to you in that time. I'm happy your prescriptions are cheaper, though. Really. I am.

 

[Bagels]

They already hold leverage during the training period; complete, and absolute.

Either you have poor comprehension, or you're intentionally dancing around/mocking my assertion. I claimed that if UPS paid "premium" wages, it would hold greater leverage in attracting & weeding out the most quality help. Instead, if you have a pulse and are capable of showing up to work on-time most days, you'll have a job. You may be harassed every day... but you'll have a job.

We've had 2 drivers fired in the past 10 years, btw. I don't know how many preloaders but at least one was fired within 2 months of my starting. So really, stop promoting your personal experience as if it were the rule.

I was once heavily involved with union. It's a fact, not my "personal experience," that company wide, PTers are rarely terminated. And only two FT terminations in ten years should earn your center a medal.

As far as management "finding ways" to try and fire people and get people in trouble -- LOL -- you really think that doesn't happen already?

LOL! Open your eyes up!! You'd be amazed at what management turns its back on every single day.... unless you're a steward or committee man, you likely don't know the breadth of people's attendance, misload and other performance issues (or harassment issues taking place).

It's unfortunate your center is filled with sorry, lousy workers. Your supposition is that the rest of us who show up on time and bust our asses off cause that's how we were raised should be held to wages that meet their standards? ... Yeah yeah sure, all the drivers in your facility are great men and the PTer's are bums -- I get it by now.

I didn't say or imply that. What I said was that status quo, employees with attendance & serious performance issues (misload, SPA people who continually invert labels, sorters who misload, etc.) are retained as are people whose performance isn't up to par (unloaders who take 90-minutes to unload a pup, baggers to take too long to bag, loaders who lag behind in PPH, etc.) during their probationary period. You can bet this would change should UPS be in position of paying premium wages.

You know, if the purchasing power of a dollar hadn't changed since 1980, that would be just fine. I wouldn't be complaining one bit about making such a great rate of pay. Unfortunately, there's this little thing called inflation. Every year there is no part-time starting raise we go backward. Now, imagine how much inflation has accrued in 30 years, where the pay has gone up $.50. And hell, they only took away insurance for a year! God forbid something happen to you in that time. I'm happy your prescriptions are cheaper, though. Really. I am.

You didn't work here in 1980. You accepted a job here five years ago... if the compensation & working conditions weren't acceptable for you, you shouldn't have accepted it. But please tell me what other PT jobs -- that don't require a HS education -- offer their employees $10.50/hour after one year + full, no-cost benefits + 2 weeks vacation + up to 25 hours in discretionary time/more vacation (depending on your region) -- and then tell me the union does nothing for its employees.

 

[104Feeder]

Does anybody really think that UPS would or should pay part-timers half of Drivers pay, $45,000 to $50,000/yr, for part-time work with full benefits and a pension? If that happens let us full timers retire and we'll go back to part-time and double dip.

 

[Bagels]

Does anybody really think that UPS would or should pay part-timers half of Drivers pay, $45,000 to $50,000/yr, for part-time work with full benefits and a pension? If that happens let us full timers retire and we'll go back to part-time and double dip.

If PTers earned the current top rate, they'd bank between $33K (averaging 20/hours per week) to $42K (averaging 25/hours per week). Peak season could possibly inflate these numbers, but I'm confident the average PTer averages closer to 20-hours than 25.

If you believe that driving is truly worth $32/hour, than I believe that PTers - such as those earning $12/hour after four years - are indeed undercompensated. That said, if UPS and the Teamsters did agree to significantly hike PT wages, you can bet that the Company - moving forward - will expect greater productivity from its workers. Gone will be the soccer moms -- exemplifying the heart of the current PT workforce (those here only for the insurance) -- who are here for 3 hours and limited to SPA, data cap & some clerk work. Gone will be those with attendance issues & performance issues (e.g. misloads) -- and there's quite a few in my center. And even if PT wages matched FT, I don't think many senior FTers would be able to work a situation in which they're asked to consistently unload a pup in less than 40-minutes.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Does anybody really think that UPS would or should pay part-timers half of Drivers pay, $45,000 to $50,000/yr, for part-time work with full benefits and a pension? If that happens let us full timers retire and we'll go back to part-time and double dip.

The average annual for a driver is closer to $78K with an additional $30K in benefits.

Based on a 4 hour guarantee:

$15/hr * 4 * 5 * 52 = $15,600

$20/hr * 4 * 5 * 52 = $20,800

$25/hr * 4 * 5 * 52 = $26,000

I would like to see the PT wage bumped up to $10/hr w/benefits or $15/hr w/o benefits in the new contract.

 

[Macbrother]

Either you have poor comprehension, or you're intentionally dancing around/mocking my assertion. I claimed that if UPS paid "premium" wages, it would hold greater leverage in attracting & weeding out the most quality help. Instead, if you have a pulse and are capable of showing up to work on-time most days, you'll have a job. You may be harassed every day... but you'll have a job.

No, I am simply saying, again, this is leverage they already hold. If you can't handle the workload with a reasonable number of misloads at my center you are not retained -- period. As I said before, for the year, one person was kept on out of three groups. If your center let's in everybody with a pulse, that's their problem.

I was once heavily involved with union. It's a fact, not my "personal experience," that company wide, PTers are rarely terminated. And only two FT terminations in ten years should earn your center a medal.

Post your numbers. We had two terminated in 14 months.

LOL! Open your eyes up!! You'd be amazed at what management turns its back on every single day.... unless you're a steward or committee man, you likely don't know the breadth of people's attendance, misload and other performance issues (or harassment issues taking place).

Actually, our center is a smaller one (about 25 people run our preload) so when even one person is absent, we know about it. Misload sheets, along with production are posted on papers right where we clock in. If someone gets called to the principal's office for whatever reason, we hear about it. We are a very tight-knit unit and look out for each other, I don't know how yours is run. Generally, management stays out of our way since we are pretty damn good at what we do. There are exceptions.

I didn't say or imply that. What I said was that status quo, employees with attendance & serious performance issues (misload, SPA people who continually invert labels, sorters who misload, etc.) are retained as are people whose performance isn't up to par (unloaders who take 90-minutes to unload a pup, baggers to take too long to bag, loaders who lag behind in PPH, etc.) during their probationary period. You can bet this would change should UPS be in position of paying premium wages.

As I said before in my first paragraph (and actually numerous times before) these types of people are not retained and are weeded out already. That's what the 30 days is for. If your center, and other centers like yours are so desperate for help that you let absolutely anyone walk through the door and stay there; perhaps you should examine the reasons behind that. I'd give you a hint but you seem more than intelligent to guess why.

You didn't work here in 1980. You accepted a job here five years ago... if the compensation & working conditions weren't acceptable for you, you shouldn't have accepted it. But please tell me what other PT jobs -- that don't require a HS education -- offer their employees $10.50/hour after one year + full, no-cost benefits + 2 weeks vacation + up to 25 hours in discretionary time/more vacation (depending on your region) -- and then tell me the union does nothing for its employees.

After one year we get 1 week, 1 sick 1 personal. That's it. period. And yes, I've heard this line of reasoning, "if I don't like it, go to fedex, quit," what have you. There's a reason full-timers don't except this line from UPS corporate -- neither should part-timers except it from you, and those of your ilk. An equal question to yours is what other PT jobs require this type of extreme, inflexible hours along with this type of workload? What other PT job does corporate require so much of their employees? Yes, the benefits are nice, but that doesn't put bread on the table, particularly from a very large group that uses them that gets the least out of it.

Does anybody really think that UPS would or should pay part-timers half of Drivers pay, $45,000 to $50,000/yr, for part-time work with full benefits and a pension? If that happens let us full timers retire and we'll go back to part-time and double dip.

Nobody is making 50k/year working 19 hours a week, brah. What we're talking about is letting people who start at around 150 a week make between 175 and 180. But we can't let that happen!! oh no. They might actually have to start "working hard" and "showing up! and "ducking management!"

 

[Bagels]

And yes, I've heard this line of reasoning, "if I don't like it, go to fedex, quit," what have you. There's a reason full-timers don't except this line from UPS corporate -- neither should part-timers except it from you, and those of your ilk. An equal question to yours is what other PT jobs require this type of extreme, inflexible hours along with this type of workload? What other PT job does corporate require so much of their employees? Yes, the benefits are nice, but that doesn't put bread on the table, particularly from a very large group that uses them that gets the least out of it.

So you work in a center with the hardest working Preloaders in the UPS system; there's so much demand for these jobs that UPS is able to select the absolute best during the probationary period. Despite that, the job's real extreme and thus you're undercompensated. Honestly, that doesn't make sense... in companies absent a CBA, markets set wages; if there was so much demand at your facility, that would suggest that the CBA has set the starting compensation too high.

I'm glad you work in Camelot. I work on a Preload that peaks near 400 PTers each peak season - we have a dedicated FT HR manager whose sole job is to stock-up the two PT sorts. Even though we'll have a number of employees laid off, she won't stop recruiting (visiting high schools, colleges, job fairs, etc.) as they'll be begging for employees come spring. When you're offering only $8.50, it's asinine to insist you're going to attract only those with the hardest work ethics. It's a demanding work environment, yes, and if you can't keep up with the pace, you'll be harassed -- but you won't lose your job. PT terminations are rare. That's not my experience, that's a fact.

 

[Bagels]

I did want to clarify my positioning:

I disagree with the notion, as the OP laid out, that the union does nothing for PT employees. UPS PT positions are no-skilled, entry level jobs; UPS is competing with the same labor pool as retail & fast food outlets. Yet UPS PTers earn higher wages (the the opportunity for large wage progressions, should they remain employed long-term), enjoy substantially more paid time off & have no-cost health + retirement benefits. UPS offsets its comparatively high labor costs though increased productivity demands. Are the PT jobs hard? Absolutely not -- but they're fast-paced & manual labor intensive. Should the union achieve substantially higher wages for the PT work force, UPS would respond - in the short-term - with substantially higher productivity demands (and increased automation in the long-term). UPS has oodles of building layouts, and productivity increases will be easier at some than others. But as a whole, it's just wrong to say UPS squeezes "every nickle" of productivity it ever could from its Preload.

If you were a business owner attempting to hire an accountant, do you agree there would be a wide variation in quality of responses between a $25K and $60K salary offer? Likewise, UPS would receive a wide variation in responses between an $8.50/hour and (for argument's sake) $14/hour wage offer. I agree that UPS is getting high productivity from the workforce it's currently attracting... but with substantially higher wages, UPS would attract substantially more capable employees. Right now, the heart of the workforce is persons here exclusively for the insurance (like soccer moms SPAing for 3 hours, then seeking to go home), young persons just starting out and those waiting for driving positions. But that would quickly change to those here for the money. And UPS would be in position of no longer having to be lenient for attendance, misloads and other performance issues. Be careful of what you wish for.

Do I think UPS PTers are underpaid? Absolutely. But I believe the same's true of much of our workforce -- it's shameful that we've come to accept a society in which FT grocery store workers, receptionists at doctor's office, etc. earn $20K/year, while executive compensation continues to accelerate. But we live in a world in which a double cheeseburger at McDonald's costs $1, whereas a medium sized apple at a grocery store will cost more than that.

 

[Asskicker]

That's right...you HAVE TO VOTE!!!! The Union has been heard saying they don't care about part-timers because they don't vote!! Let's take a stand right here right now!!! We do outnumber full-timers so lets show the Union we are here and we will be heard. Let's us Part-timers stick together and get some decent contract proposals for US!!!! I think full-timers are doing just fine. It's us who have their hours constantly cut, who are ordered around the entire time we are at work, get no respect...are treated like we are stupid because we are part-time. This is for all of us. Come on my brothers and sisters...VOTE, VOTE, VOTE. If you don't like the contract then vote NO. We need to pull together.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

That's right...you HAVE TO VOTE!!!! The Union has been heard saying they don't care about part-timers because they don't vote!! Let's take a stand right here right now!!! We do outnumber full-timers so lets show the Union we are here and we will be heard. Let's us Part-timers stick together and get some decent contract proposals for US!!!! I think full-timers are doing just fine. It's us who have their hours constantly cut, who are ordered around the entire time we are at work, get no respect...are treated like we are stupid because we are part-time. This is for all of us. Come on my brothers and sisters...VOTE, VOTE, VOTE. If you don't like the contract then vote NO. We need to pull together.

Did you participate in your local's contract proposal meeting(s)? We had 12 people show up to ours---5 FT and 7 PT. The PTers put forth some good proposals but the meeting eventually focused on the FTers.

If I were a PTer I would push for a 4 hour guarantee, bump in starting pay to $10/hr ($15/hr w/o benefits), preference over outside hires as Peak helpers and increased opportunities for advancement to a FT position.

 

[Asskicker]

That's part of the point right there. Part-timers are getting no hours so why are you loading and unloading your truck? Don't you get enough hours during the day? And if people don't show up it should be a bonus for those part timers who do. Stop doing OUR work!!!!! Driver's are bitching they are working too many hours and filing grievances for 9.5 days. Let us do our jobs!!! We are happy to work the overtime that is there when others don't show up!!! If they start the sort earlier, and they can do that... they will get down in plenty of time. They are cramming the work out in the shortest possible time, and you Full timers are bitching about working too many hours, yet are doing our job. STOP DOING OUR JOB!!!!!!!!

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

Was that rant directed at me?

 

[Asskicker]

How about not the same but reasonable. I am a 30yr part time employee. I've had hernia surgery twice, have herniated disks in my back, and am still a loyal employee. I am at work every day, and am trusted. At some point shouldn't I reach top scale? I still make three dollars an hour less then someone hired under the old contract back in 82. Have I not taken my lumps? Worked my ass off? Part time is a constant job with no break to drive to the next stop either. It's stand there and sort, sort, sort, sort...or load, load, load, load. You get ten minutes and do it again. Yeah they are two different jobs, but there still should be some sort of reward for sticking it out for the long haul. Also pension wise we are not even close. From 30 to 35 the pension hike is a little over $300 more a month. Is that because we are slower in our old age? Do drivers not slow down as they age? So why are we being penalized for aging? We also don't get any in between years unless we wait until 65 to collect. Yes this is true. If you have to leave at say 28 years you will only collect the 25 and out pension. You lose those three years unless you wait until 65 to collect. SSSSSSS00000000000000000 not fair. Drivers get every year regardless, and even go past 35 years. Ours caps out at 35.