telematicks

[grgrcr88]

Our trucks are all wired up, we're supposed to go live sometime this summer I think. I'm curious to see how they handle some of these big bonus drivers who have been breaking every rule for years.

They still ignore them here!!

 

[BrownTie]

Like the post between, the other side and sober. No matter how the contract is worded, we can all come to an agreement. Do your job right.

 

[soberups]

This is why I say NOT to give the advice you are giving. You will put someone in a chokehold if they believe what you are saying to them and they risk their careers for tough talk from a BA or Local President.

If you go back and reread my posts on this issue you will see that the only "advice" that I have ever given is to do the job properly. At no time have I ever condoned dishonesty or suggested that dishonest drivers can somehow "beat the system".

The only point that I was trying to make...is that it is factually incorrect for you to state that a driver can be terminated for dishonesty based solely upon a Telematics report. A driver who follows the methods and "does the job the right" does not have anything to fear from Telematics.

Peace.

 

[The Other Side]

If you go back and reread my posts on this issue you will see that the only "advice" that I have ever given is to do the job properly. At no time have I ever condoned dishonesty or suggested that dishonest drivers can somehow "beat the system".

The only point that I was trying to make...is that it is factually incorrect for you to state that a driver can be terminated for dishonesty based solely upon a Telematics report. A driver who follows the methods and "does the job the right" does not have anything to fear from Telematics.

Peace.

Sober,

It must be "sobering" to see that despite all the tough talk by your reps in Nor Cal, you cant point to a single place in the contract where it backs up your position. You stated:"reread my posts on this issue you will see that the only "advice" that I have ever given is to do the job properly"...

Ok, lets do that.

You said : "Since there were no actual witnesses to what occured, all he would have had to do was to plead ignorance by saying "I dont recall" and they would not have been able to fire him."

One again I raised the typeface to get your attention. What you wrote here is called ADVICE.

Advising anyone to plead ignorance is ignorant in itself. The statement you made is an opinion based on some formula you are using to escape discipline.

There is an old saying, and it goes like this "excuses dont explain and explanations dont excuse"

If you are guilty, you are guilty. Do the job correctly. I think we agree on this point.

As far as this statement goes: "The only point that I was trying to make...is that it is factually incorrect for you to state that a driver can be terminated for dishonesty based solely..."

I believe here you need a lesson in "factually".

Adv.1.factually - as a fact or based on fact; "they learn much, factually, about the problems of retirement and provision for old age, and, psychologically, in the sharing of their thoughts on retirement"



Factually, I presented to you, the circumstances and printed agreements between UPS and the Teamsters. Line by Line, section by section, article by article. The words speak for themselves.

Factually, you presented to me " My BA told me this, My president told me that" and "we have superior language"....these are not facts but merely "HEARSAY".

Hearsay will get you 10 cents in an arbitration hearing.

For the record, I am not of the position that telematics is perfect, and I agree there are many flaws in the system, but understand that the Teamsters have not challenged the technology anywhere in the country, so for the record, the technology
will pass muster in an arbitration.

Until the International challenges the systems flaws and can demonstrate by some calculations that the system is providing false or inaccurate information, then we die by the sword.

It was the Teamsters who allowed this to make it pass the negotiation table, and it was "us" who ratified the contract.

In the end, no matter what it sez or how we try and interpret it, we can only blame ourselves for not making the UNION go back to the table and strike this language.

You and I are on some level of agreement with respect to doing the job correctly, but if you have been around 20 something years like I, you will have seen many drivers who will attempt to cheat the system no matter what technology exists.

Peace.

 

[soberups]

Sober,

It must be "sobering" to see that despite all the tough talk by your reps in Nor Cal, you cant point to a single place in the contract where it backs up your position. You stated:"reread my posts on this issue you will see that the only "advice" that I have ever given is to do the job properly"...

Ok, lets do that.

You said : "Since there were no actual witnesses to what occured, all he would have had to do was to plead ignorance by saying "I dont recall" and they would not have been able to fire him."

One again I raised the typeface to get your attention. What you wrote here is called ADVICE.

Advising anyone to plead ignorance is ignorant in itself. The statement you made is an opinion based on some formula you are using to escape discipline.

.

I was not "giving advice". To "give advice" means to suggest or advocate a particular course of action. I was discussing a hypothetical situation regarding Telematics, the contract language, and the manner in which that contract language has been interpreted during recent panel hearings involving terminations for dishonesty.

 

[The Other Side]

I was not "giving advice". To "give advice" means to suggest or advocate a particular course of action. I was discussing a hypothetical situation regarding Telematics, the contract language, and the manner in which that contract language has been interpreted during recent panel hearings involving terminations for dishonesty.

Sober,

Lets make this simple, IMA use a TIEGUY tactic and ask you to contact your BA or Local president, ask them for a copy of a ruling, MOU or anything that specifically mentions and agreement between UPS labor and the Teamsters where the panel ruled against the language in the contract and then POST IT HERE for us all to read.

Individual cases where telematics was used in part or completely in your jurisdiction and remedied in panel hearings in the west does not mean an agreement was made that establishes an INTERPRETATION to be used in all other cases.

I dont mean to embarrass you by any means, but I believe you will be surprised how you have been taken by tough talk by your representatives.

Please, take the time and ask for a copy of a "DOCKETED CASE" that contains a ruling where located at the bottom of the page states "this is case precedent setting".

That is where you will confirm your claims of "recent panel hearings".

Peace.

 

[soberups]

For the record, I am not of the position that telematics is perfect, and I agree there are many flaws in the system, but understand that the Teamsters have not challenged the technology anywhere in the country, so for the record, the technology
will pass muster in an arbitration.

.

Are you aware of any specific terminations that were upheld in arbitration with no proof other than a Telematics printout? Or is this merely an assumption on your part?

I am personally familiar with several recent terminations in which Telematics data was involved...but in every one of these cases the company had additional proof besides a piece of paper with a GPS printout on it.

peace.

 

[bigblu 2 you]

telematicks-derived from greek origin. tele,to tell all as in tattle tale .ma,slang for mother ,the one who you run to and tell and knows all. ticks, a blood sucking parasite that is carried by the host and feeds off of it. amazing when you break down some of these words what you find?

 

[The Other Side]

telematicks-derived from greek origin. tele,to tell all as in tattle tale .ma,slang for mother ,the one who you run to and tell and knows all. ticks, a blood sucking parasite that is carried by the host and feeds off of it. amazing when you break down some of these words what you find?

@ Bigblu : LOL..that was funny.

@ Sober : Yes, we have had many cases in So Cal, and all were initiated by telematics and confirmed through telematics for dishonesty as called for in Article 6 of the national master and our package rider addendum 2. Of all the cases, only one has stuck and the others brought back for being a "first offense" as called for in Article 6.

Remember, the "new" language for telematics is similiar to the "signing for packages" language. You get ONE bite of the apple, then after that, its lights out, NO MATTER WHAT other language says.

Telematics is more than just global positioning Sober. Its a detailed report of starts and stops, speed, miles, travel path, backing, use of braking, diad location versus intended location. Dishonesty is something that the company wanted a concession from the UNION with, and they got it in Article 6 of the national master agreement.

In doing so, the Teamsters asked for a concession of their own by including the "first offense" clause. The company asked for a "caveat" (pronounced CA-VI-OT) that reinforces a termination if they can PROVE it through the use of telematics.

This is why it sez "information SOLELY obtained through"..... It does not say it need to be attached to any other types of "proof". The union has conceded by accepting this language that "telematics" is proof enough.

One bite of the apple. Plain and Simple. After that, hopefully the driver will know NOT to repeat the behavior.

Peace.

 

[tourists24]

As one who has been on Telematics for over 2 years now, I can tell you that, for the most part at least, it doesnt suck. And some of the "everything" that they now know is stuff they would really rather not be aware of...like the 2 hr bonus drivers who all of a sudden cant maintain their usual pace once they have to take lunch,close the BH door, wear the seatbelt and drive the speed limit. The lunch-skippers and corner-cutters who used to make management look good on paper...as well as making life hell for the rest of us whenever we had to run their routes...are being forced to slow down and do the job properly.

question here Sober.... how does telematics make a lunch skipper take his lunch now? Our sups already know who our skippers are and could care less as long as the numbers look good. How does telematics change them overlooking it?

 

[22.34life]

Sober,

what you are saying is exactly what the problem is. My BA told me this, my President told me that, my secretary treasurer told me this...

Recent panel hearings have NO IMPACT on the daily operation of the business. There has been NO panel hearings in the WEST in 2010, 2009 or last month that established a "PRECEDENT" for the use of telematics or language contained in the collective bargaining agreement.

This is why I say, unless you can find it in the book, it doesnt exist.

Each case that goes to panels in the west is separate from all others unless the company stipulates to a "PRECEDENT" and this my friend, despite all the people in your local who told you so, are incorrect.

Panel hearings, or Deadlock committees which they are more commonly referred to, are not places where language is changed, modified or understandings clarified.

They are small meetings where each side has less than 5 minutes to present a side and a decision made by the panel of 6 (3 union and 3 company) more often than not, its a tie and the matter goes outside where it is negotiated between the labor rep for the company and an executive officer of the union (not the BA).

Here is where most cases are settled...

I know you would not be able to present any evidence to the contrary to what I posted, and I knew you would respond with the "somebody told me"....

This is why I say NOT to give the advice you are giving. You will put someone in a chokehold if they believe what you are saying to them and they risk their careers for tough talk from a BA or Local President.

Many of us have been at the tables. Many of us know how deals are made and contracts formed.

Like I said before, dont accept tough talk as LANGUAGE, dont accept tough talk as a crutch, dont believe that someone who tells you that despite what is written it has a different meaning than what it was intended.

All the drivers in my region are learning that they have to do the job "by the book", forget about "past practice", lose the "learned behaviors" and you will be worry free on the road.

If you take the approach that someone told you that you will be protected if you do the job wrong, then you are a candidate for termination.

Lets leave this conversation with this; "DO THE JOB RIGHT".

Peace

other side makes a very good point,dont believe all the my ba told me this crap.this happens all the time a steward tells someone he does or does not have a case for a grievance and without even reading the contract language himself just takes his word for it.people have a way of believing that these people are smarter than they are and just take their word for it.dont listen to what someone else tells you read it FOR YOUR SELF!

 

[brostalss]

Let them play with their new toy and it settles down after awhile. The key is NOT to make the top 5 of their reports. Example: idle time, seatbelt, bulkhead door, backing. You'll soon know the tricks.

 

[soberups]

Let them play with their new toy and it settles down after awhile. The key is NOT to make the top 5 of their reports. Example: idle time, seatbelt, bulkhead door, backing. You'll soon know the tricks.

The key..... is NOT to give a sh%t whether you show up on any of their reports in the first place.

Any action you take to get off of one of their reports will simply cause you to show up on a different one. Once you accept the fact that their job security depends upon finding (or creating) things to complain about, your own peace of mind will be greatly enhanced. You cannot make them happy, so why even try?

 

[Dragon]

The key..... is NOT to give a sh%t whether you show up on any of their reports in the first place.

Any action you take to get off of one of their reports will simply cause you to show up on a different one. Once you accept the fact that their job security depends upon finding (or creating) things to complain about, your own peace of mind will be greatly enhanced. You cannot make them happy, so why even try?

Are you always such a sourpuss....

 

[Bubblehead]

Are you always such a sourpuss....

He's a product of his environment.

 

[Dragon]

He's a product of his environment.

Some way or another its UPS's fault.

 

[Pondy]

We have it. They know everything you do. When it was 1st installed, drivers were using magnets to interrupt the system, but they were caught. Management put the pressure on for a few months, then a new flavor of the month appeared. 2 years later, they have lists that are produced by the computer, daily. Bulkhead door not closed, seatbelts, idling, you name it, they know! I'm surprised they didn't figure out a way to connect it to the handrail!!!

 

[Nimnim]

We have it. They know everything you do. When it was 1st installed, drivers were using magnets to interrupt the system, but they were caught. Management put the pressure on for a few months, then a new flavor of the month appeared. 2 years later, they have lists that are produced by the computer, daily. Bulkhead door not closed, seatbelts, idling, you name it, they know! I'm surprised they didn't figure out a way to connect it to the handrail!!!

I'm sure they thought of the handrail thing. However it would probably involve installing a new handrail.

 

[lvgolfer962]

The key..... is NOT to give a sh%t whether you show up on any of their reports in the first place.

Any action you take to get off of one of their reports will simply cause you to show up on a different one. Once you accept the fact that their job security depends upon finding (or creating) things to complain about, your own peace of mind will be greatly enhanced. You cannot make them happy, so why even try?

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

[Harry Manback]

I heard they put sensors in the seat to measure the amount of methane you "expell" on a daily basis. The target metric is less than 5 mL. If you fart whilst driving more than 5 times a day, you're gonna hear about it in the morning. Take heart though, you can "fool" em if you turn your car off and do it.