The Straight Truth About the Bush Economy
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Tyrone Slothrop
Well-Known Member
How so? I see $52.69 billion spent on 14,211 pork projects in 2004. How is that funny?dannyboy said:
tieguy
Banned
Tyrone Slothrop said:
Now much of the rest of your post was really opinion and defintely difficult to quantify. But this one should be easy enough to compare. What percentage of someones earnings will someone making 20 K a year pay in taxes . What percentage will someone making 200 k pay. Should be real easy. What perks will the person making 200 k get. What perks will the person making 20 K get. Are you just chanting the liberal mantra someone brainwashed you with or do you really believe this?
Tyrone Slothrop
Well-Known Member
tieguy said:
How about one back at you? How much cash would a person making $20k/yr have left over after paying for food, clothing, housing, heating, transportation and out of pocket medical/dental? How much would a person making $200k/yr have left? Or figure it as a percentage. What percent of the above examples income goes to basic needs? That should be easy enough for you to compare.
PS--I wouldn't label myself as a 'liberal', any more than I would label you as a 'dittohead'. Labels tend to simplify a complex matter to the point that they are mostly meaningless. I believe todays NYTimes has a front page article on Americans' savings rates, if you are interested; short story---they are at their worse since the depression.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
I do think it should be noted that not always dipping into one's saving or taking on debt is a negative. There are some cases where the debt is a result of buying a home and the dipping into savings was a result of the down payment so the true net effect longterm was in fact a wealth accumulation not a loss of savings. The point being not all dips into savings are foolish spending but rather moving $$$$ into different types of wealth generating assets.
I do agree the saving and debt ratios are concerning but you have to look hard at the numbers because the real picture is not always apparent.
JMO.
I do agree the saving and debt ratios are concerning but you have to look hard at the numbers because the real picture is not always apparent.
JMO.
Tyrone Slothrop
Well-Known Member
wkmac,
I agree with the gist of your post, but how many 'wealth generating assets' do you suppose someone with an income of $20k/yr has. My uneducated guess would be an occasional lottery ticket would be the extent of any 'wealth generating assets'.
I did find this page of charts:
https://web.archive.org/web/20071108010711/http://www.faireconomy.org/research/income_charts.html
that shows a discouraging trend.
I agree with the gist of your post, but how many 'wealth generating assets' do you suppose someone with an income of $20k/yr has. My uneducated guess would be an occasional lottery ticket would be the extent of any 'wealth generating assets'.
I did find this page of charts:
https://web.archive.org/web/20071108010711/http://www.faireconomy.org/research/income_charts.html
that shows a discouraging trend.
Tyrone Slothrop
Well-Known Member
Let's see, the federal tax rate for someone making $20k is 15%, for $200k it's 33%. I think that the person who makes $200k would have plenty left over for the necessities of life, and a few luxuries to boot. The person making $20k, not so much. I don't believe that the person making $20k has 'big money' paying their bills. Are you really so misinformed, or just naturally contrary?tieguy said:
tieguy
Banned
Tyrone Slothrop said:
I don't know what your point is to be honest. I would rather neither one paid any taxes. I certainly don't think the guy making 200 should pay more than 33%. At that level he is paying as much as 22 of your 20 K guys. I also don't think the guy making 200 K should feel guilty he makes what he does. Very few are born with silver spoons in their mouths. Most earn what they got. The same comparison we made here you can make with the 20 k earner and the ups driver who makes 50 to 100 ( sleeper team feeder drivers). I don't think they should guilty and I don't think the goverment should tell them how much they have to donate to some liberal left wingers social programs.
Tyrone Slothrop
Well-Known Member
The point is, things aren't necessarily as rosey in the economy as Bush makes out. It will be interesting to see the spin he puts on it tonight. I don't believe that anyone was belittling the $200k wage earner. I do however, wonder why a banker is given a $135,000,000 parachute when he already has nearly $500,000,000 in holdings. Now if he found the cure for cancer or AIDS, maybe he might be worth that insane amount of money. The disparity in income has never been greater in this country, and that's not a good thing.tieguy said:
Try to deal with real numbers:
Our society had 111 million males over age fifteen in the year 2004. 57 million, or slightly more than half, earned under $27,000 in that year.
81 million or roughly three-quarters of our 111 million total headcount earned less that $45,000 in 2004. 4.5 million earned over $115,000, and less than 1 million make over $250,000.
I can supply the figures for women as well, but they are not as high, as you might imagine.
Tieguy, if you don't want to pay taxes, may I suggest Mexico as a place you may want to consider relocating to. Of course the things you take for granted here may not be what you're used to. Potable water, reliable electricity and a relatively honest police force come to mind immediately, but the tax rate is great! I would say that the 33% federal tax rate leaves the high income earner in a better position than the 15% rate for the low income earner, remember that doesn't include SS, FICA or local taxes, and any reduction for deductibles, which the low income earner probably doesn't have. If I made $200k/yr, I would consider 33% to be a bargain.
Tyrone Slothrop
Well-Known Member
NASA scientist rips Bush on global warmingtieguy said:
Renowned expert says data 'screened and controlled'
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6341451/
tieguy
Banned
Tyrone Slothrop said:
Whats with this bush and global warming thing going on now. I thought clinton had all that global warming fixed before he left office. Now you're telling me its not fixed and its all bush's fault? Guess we need a democrat in office so we don't have to hear about global warming for 8 years.
Tyrone Slothrop
Well-Known Member
Hansen said the administration wants to hear only scientific results that fit predetermined, inflexible positions. Evidence that would raise concerns about the dangers of climate change is often dismissed as not being of sufficient interest to the public.This, I believe, is a recipe for environmental disaster.
Tyrone Slothrop
Well-Known Member
Tieguy, Clinton is gone, accept it. Are you really convinced that global warming can be 'fixed' in 8 years? I believe it was left to the Repubs to accept the Kyoto Treaty. Clinton, at least acknowledged the fact of global warming and took steps to do something about it.tieguy said:
I don't see you answering any questions put to you, but try this little experiment: go to Google, type in 'clinton global warming'. Open another window, go to Google, type in 'bush global warming'. Read both for awhile. Then get back to us.
In the meantime, why don't you explain to everyone how a person making $20k a year would budget the necessities of living.
Then contemplate this fact about the Bush economy:
Over 2001-2003, the US lost 2 million durable goods manufacturing jobs that paid an average annual salary of $46,800. Over the same period, the US lost 800,000 non-durables manufacturing jobs with and annual salary of $40,700 and 500,000 information service jobs with an average annual salary of $57,300. These are the top three areas of job loss over the 2001-2003 period.
From 2003-2005, the top three areas of job growth occurred in administrative and support services (+680,000 jobs created), health care and social assistance (+620,000 jobs created) and leisure and entertainment (+546,000 jobs created). Respectively, each of these pays an average annual salary of $26,178, $37,410 and $14,750. Notice how the top three areas of job creating have noticably lower annual incomes.
You may find that you will be happier staying in the dream world you have created, rather than dealing with actual facts.
PS--Clinton wasn't/isn't that much different from Bush, just smarter and a larger libido.
I have the smoker fired up, and a couple of racks of baby backs soaking up the mesquite, much more engaging than attempting to explain realities to closed minds.
adios, muchacho
tieguy
Banned
I don't doubt some of what you post though it appears you have clearly made an effort to be selective in the data you post since you list job losses from one span and gains from another.
The point as I previously stated was what is your point. What is it you want me to do for the guy making 20 K? Cut his taxes ? find him a better job that he may not have prepared himself for educationally? Even out the pay scales so everyone makes the same and pays the same in taxes?
Your job data. Whats your point there? Are you telling me that someone who busts their but in high school and college will end up stuck in a 20 K a year job? ( if they decide to become social service counselors yes) Did you also notice the nice increase in technical /professional / engineering jobs?
I feel like you're selectively feeding me data and making points without fully explaining where your going with this selective feeding.
Global warming always blamed on the republican president and ignored when the democrat is in power. that was my point which you chose to dodge. If your liberal critics feel bush should be fixing the problem then why didnt clinton do so when he had the opportunity.
Enjoy your ribs.
The point as I previously stated was what is your point. What is it you want me to do for the guy making 20 K? Cut his taxes ? find him a better job that he may not have prepared himself for educationally? Even out the pay scales so everyone makes the same and pays the same in taxes?
Your job data. Whats your point there? Are you telling me that someone who busts their but in high school and college will end up stuck in a 20 K a year job? ( if they decide to become social service counselors yes) Did you also notice the nice increase in technical /professional / engineering jobs?
I feel like you're selectively feeding me data and making points without fully explaining where your going with this selective feeding.
Global warming always blamed on the republican president and ignored when the democrat is in power. that was my point which you chose to dodge. If your liberal critics feel bush should be fixing the problem then why didnt clinton do so when he had the opportunity.
Enjoy your ribs.
Tyrone Slothrop
Well-Known Member
Tieguy,
I dont want to fight with you, just trying to present some facts. The reason the dates are different for job losses and job gains is that the jobs lost were in the recession that ended in 2003 and began in 2001. The jobs gained data was from the recovery that started in 2004 through 2005. The average loss in wages across the board is $9000/yr. The wage gap between jobs lost and jobs gained is over 20%.
What do I want you to do? I would like you to hold elected representatives responsible. I would like you to admit that Bushs economic policies have not been good for the average American. I would like you to admit that everything bad is not Clintons fault (he had a Repub Congress, remember?).
Did you read a bit on global warming? Youre in MD, right? Do you want to lose all those tasty Chesapeake Bay crabs? I dont, and though the mild winter is nice, the increased precipitation East and prolonged drought West is not so good. Remember the spring floods on the East coast last year?
Clinton told Bush that global warming was the biggest threat to America, it still is. Last night Bush reiterated his position that America must seek out and destroy tyranny around the world. This is directly opposed to the thoughts of the Founding Fathers. It is our duty to protect Freedom at home and encourage it abroad, not to force it at gunpoint.
The Middle East policy is a joke. The road to Democracy in the Muslim world leads directly through the mosque. Im sure that is not what the Cheney Rumsfield - Perle crowd had in mind when they engineered this war of choice. Our greatest threat in other countries is Pakistan. They are only a bullet away from being a radical Islamic State that possesses nuclear weapons. Remember AQ Kahn?
My hope is that intelligent people, such as yourself, open their eyes to what is really happening in the world, and stop marching blindly towards their own destruction.
Time to get the sweet potatoes ready and throw some more mesquite on the coals, and maybe have a cold one.
See you in a couple of days,
Ty
I dont want to fight with you, just trying to present some facts. The reason the dates are different for job losses and job gains is that the jobs lost were in the recession that ended in 2003 and began in 2001. The jobs gained data was from the recovery that started in 2004 through 2005. The average loss in wages across the board is $9000/yr. The wage gap between jobs lost and jobs gained is over 20%.
What do I want you to do? I would like you to hold elected representatives responsible. I would like you to admit that Bushs economic policies have not been good for the average American. I would like you to admit that everything bad is not Clintons fault (he had a Repub Congress, remember?).
Did you read a bit on global warming? Youre in MD, right? Do you want to lose all those tasty Chesapeake Bay crabs? I dont, and though the mild winter is nice, the increased precipitation East and prolonged drought West is not so good. Remember the spring floods on the East coast last year?
Clinton told Bush that global warming was the biggest threat to America, it still is. Last night Bush reiterated his position that America must seek out and destroy tyranny around the world. This is directly opposed to the thoughts of the Founding Fathers. It is our duty to protect Freedom at home and encourage it abroad, not to force it at gunpoint.
The Middle East policy is a joke. The road to Democracy in the Muslim world leads directly through the mosque. Im sure that is not what the Cheney Rumsfield - Perle crowd had in mind when they engineered this war of choice. Our greatest threat in other countries is Pakistan. They are only a bullet away from being a radical Islamic State that possesses nuclear weapons. Remember AQ Kahn?
My hope is that intelligent people, such as yourself, open their eyes to what is really happening in the world, and stop marching blindly towards their own destruction.
Time to get the sweet potatoes ready and throw some more mesquite on the coals, and maybe have a cold one.
See you in a couple of days,
Ty
