Time for Changes

[DELACROIX]

I have never said UPS is going belly up anytime soon, quit being so dramatic.
I am clearly laying out the facts that UPS has been losing market share for the past 30 years. Even if UPS gets to zero percent market share of the US domestic small package market it will not go belly up, but it will be a much smaller company than it is now. But guess what? Likely it will still be profitable.
Had UPS won in 97, it would have been way more competitive and would likely still have close to ~50% market share, delivering something like 40 million pieces a day.

“97” is ancient history..get over it..

Why would UPS be more competitive if they had control over all our pensions..?

Why would UPS be more competitive if they didn’t create more full time positions..?

Internet sales are not going away, Global markets are expanding. The real reason why we are not getting a bigger piece is that we lost the concept of “Doing the Right Thing” for every employee (Union or Not). Loyalty goes both ways.

If a strike occurs it will be again as it was back 26 years ago a Corporate Decision .

O’Brien will continue to repeat that fact if things do not get done this week.

If Corporate wants a strike… let it be….guaranteed if it happens…

Those involved will be participating in a historic event.

There is a powder keg ready to explode and this possible strike might be the spark . People are angry out there over seeing the hypocrisy of these Pampered Corporate Executives that continue to get richer by denying their lower class workers and their families the same opportunities for a better future and to share in their Company’s growth.

UPS is not losing money and can easily afford what O’Brien is asking.. Bottom line..

 

[Thebrownblob]

Not to worry, the NMA over the past 30 odd years has and continues to work to make UPS a smaller company. The explosion in the small pack market due to e-commerce thwarted those efforts, but that may be reaching equilibrium and actual reductions in volume may be seen soon.

The old days are gone. Unions now stand for protecting workers, sure, but most of the workplace safety issues have now been codified into law and are unforced by OSHA. They also stand for a better share of revenue for workers (they don't calculate it that way but that's essentially what it is). Certainly valid.

What they no longer stand for, is quality of workmanship. There used to be an unwritten agreement between labor unions and management that developed over decades from the late 1800's to ~1970's ish that companies would provide decent pay, and unions would provide quality work (remember the 'look for the union label' jingle from marketing campaigns).
Basically, a fair days work for a fair days pay.
Now, it's whatever work I feel like giving for a fair days pay. Just look at all the effort the union has put into getting agreements in the NMA restricting management's ability to hold employees accountable to doing the job and doing it right. Telematics proved the driver went 4 miles out of the way off route to get lunch at Cracker Barrel while passing 12 perfectly comfortable places to eat and use a restroom. Certainly cause for discipline right? Wrong! None at all. Also, pay the 9.5 pay, poor guy could only manage 7 SPORH those days so, pay up.
Camera proved the driver was steeling cell phones? Automatic termination, clearly a cardinal. Nope! Zero discipline. Also, I'll probably be calling off tomorrow. I'll use my brand new Samsung!

Imo, one of the biggest reasons for the massive drop in the percentage of the workforce represented by unions in the US is the fact that unions completely abandoned the practical idea of a fair days work and put so much energy into protecting workers who refused to give one. That had 2 impacts. 1, it destroyed many companies who could not get quality work nor adjust quickly to market changes. 2, workers who took pride in their own work were soured on unions when they saw them putting the majority of their energy into defending thieves and slugs.

This might be the most ignorant manifesto, I’ve ever read on Brown café regarding this subject.
Really UPS is smaller? Do you and @Karma... hit the bong together daily? How many employees did we have in 1997 and how many do we have now?
You don’t think the union has made it a much better workplace for us. Why don’t you go look at FedEx? And if you’re in management, why do you enjoy bending over and grab your ankles? As the company has taken more and more from you every year?
Quality of workmanship? It’s unquestionably on our side. Maybe if you had half a brain you could go out and talk to customers and see who is the more professional driver and who the customers count on the most it’s definitely their UPS driver not to mention average number of years in service is still probably higher than any other company.
You were completely full of crap when you say, we do not give a fair days work for a fair days pay. You point out that somebody drives off route to go eat at Cracker Barrel dude that stuff happens everywhere, and guess what? The guys that do that don’t have a job very long.

The real issue is you’re a bitter, agitated, old man as the company has taken from you and our union has managed to not lose very much and now we’re trying to get back some of the things we have lost.

Go ahead keep pointing out the exceptions to the rule of quality drivers I’m involved in a lot of those cases you’re talking about and those guys do not stay here very long.

 

[Thebrownblob]

“97” is ancient history..get over it..

Why would UPS be more competitive if they had control over all our pensions..?

Why would UPS be more competitive if they didn’t create more full time positions..?

Internet sales are not going away, Global markets are expanding. The real reason why we are not getting a bigger piece is that we lost the concept of “Doing the Right Thing” for every employee (Union or Not). Loyalty goes both ways.

If a strike occurs it will be again as it was back 26 years ago a Corporate Decision .

O’Brien will continue to repeat that fact if things do not get done this week.

If Corporate wants a strike… let it be….guaranteed if it happens…

Those involved will be participating in a historic event.

There is a powder keg ready to explode and this possible strike might be the spark . People are angry out there over seeing the hypocrisy of these Pampered Corporate Executives that continue to get richer by denying their lower class workers and their families the same opportunities for a better future and to share in their Company’s growth.

UPS is not losing money and can easily afford what O’Brien is asking.. Bottom line..

@brownIEman is probably still pissed about losing his pension and paying for his health care now. Maybe he should’ve joined a union.

 

[Karma...]

in many cases ignorance is bliss

 

[DELACROIX]

Maybe what there was about the management plan that UPS didn't want you to have so badly was that it was management plans, and maybe they weren't stupid enough to believe for a second that the IBT would WANT their members in it since it was totally UPS controlled. Maybe they knew if they even suggested it, they would get Carey screaming how UPS wants to take over control of all UPS teamster pension funds so the greedy corporate fat cats could raid those funds. If that last was the case, then the joke is on Kelly and co., cause Carey did exactly that anyway. Maybe they didn't want you in that plan because even way back then they were planning on doing away with it. Who knows.

UPS did offer MINIMUM payments, and the opportunity for higher benefits. Your idea of "but we would have to negotiate after our leverage was gone" is incredibly weak. It amounts to an admission that the IBT were weak negotiators and would not have been able to get an equitable deal. I think you are wrong. UPS could have afforded to give UPS teamsters even more than they wound up with and still save money by getting rid of the huge and growing liabilities caused by non-upsers in the mufti-employer funds. Of course, the big losers would be those non-UPS pensioners. Those are, in part, the folks Carey struck UPS to protect.





If I get time I may do some research on this. I do have a problem with this line of argument though. You are basically saying that since it is illegal, the IBT could not have been doing it. I could make the same argument to suggest no one ever drives over the speed limit.

“If I get time, I may do some research on this”

Get anything?

 

[BigUnionGuy]

@brownIEman is probably still pissed about losing his pension and paying for his health care now. Maybe he should’ve joined a union.

I've run into a few retired management people over the years. Some planned well.... others didn't.

 

[brownIEman]

This might be the most ignorant manifesto, I’ve ever read on Brown café regarding this subject.
Really UPS is smaller? Do you and @Karma... hit the bong together daily? How many employees did we have in 1997 and how many do we have now?
You don’t think the union has made it a much better workplace for us. Why don’t you go look at FedEx? And if you’re in management, why do you enjoy bending over and grab your ankles? As the company has taken more and more from you every year?
Quality of workmanship? It’s unquestionably on our side. Maybe if you had half a brain you could go out and talk to customers and see who is the more professional driver and who the customers count on the most it’s definitely their UPS driver not to mention average number of years in service is still probably higher than any other company.
You were completely full of crap when you say, we do not give a fair days work for a fair days pay. You point out that somebody drives off route to go eat at Cracker Barrel dude that stuff happens everywhere, and guess what? The guys that do that don’t have a job very long.

The real issue is you’re a bitter, agitated, old man as the company has taken from you and our union has managed to not lose very much and now we’re trying to get back some of the things we have lost.

Go ahead keep pointing out the exceptions to the rule of quality drivers I’m involved in a lot of those cases you’re talking about and those guys do not stay here very long.

I said the NMA was working to make UPS smaller, but that was thwarted by the rising market. Yes, UPS is bigger than it was then, but market share is much smaller. UPS volume declined in 2021 and 2022, is unclear if that is part of the pandemic effects or the start of a new trend. I also said the NMA, not the union, for a reason. The NMA is a negotiated document by 2 parties.

I have asked customers, hundreds of them. The UPS driver is absolutely respected. Weirdly, the Amazon driver is more so at this point.

If you are involved in the exception cases then you know the incredible effort the union puts into making sure those guys do stick around as long as possible. You know that those guys that don't stick around long mostly leave due to unrelenting harassment from management, the only effective tool left to get them to leave.

 

[brownIEman]

“If I get time, I may do some research on this”

Get anything?

Yes. Yes I did. But that was 11 years ago...

 

[BigUnionGuy]

I said the NMA was working to make UPS smaller, but that was thwarted by the rising market. Yes, UPS is bigger than it was then, but market share is much smaller. UPS volume declined in 2021 and 2023, is unclear if that is part of the pandemic effects or the start of a new trend. I also said the NMA, not the union, for a reason. The NMA is a negotiated document by 2 parties.

I have tasked to customers, hundreds of them. The UPS driver is absolutely respected. Weirdly, the Amazon driver is more so at this point.

If you are involved in the exception cases then you know the incredible effort the union puts into making sure those guys do stick around as long as possible. You know that those guys that don't stick around long mostly leave due to unrelenting harassment from management, the only effective tool left to get them to leave.

Maybe we can get @Wally to decipher this post.

You are hanging out with @Old Man Jingles .... aren't you ?

 

[oldngray]

Maybe we can get @Wally to decipher this post.

You are hanging out with @Old Man Jingles .... aren't you ?

 

[Thebrownblob]

I said the NMA was working to make UPS smaller, but that was thwarted by the rising market. Yes, UPS is bigger than it was then, but market share is much smaller. UPS volume declined in 2021 and 2022, is unclear if that is part of the pandemic effects or the start of a new trend. I also said the NMA, not the union, for a reason. The NMA is a negotiated document by 2 parties.

I have asked customers, hundreds of them. The UPS driver is absolutely respected. Weirdly, the Amazon driver is more so at this point.

If you are involved in the exception cases then you know the incredible effort the union puts into making sure those guys do stick around as long as possible. You know that those guys that don't stick around long mostly leave due to unrelenting harassment from management, the only effective tool left to get them to leave.

We put incredible effort into giving human beings a second chance. That’s our job. And if you’re worried about the amount of work that is going away, ask Carol why her claim to fame is “better not bigger”. You’re very concerned about the labor issue. You should be more concerned about your job disappearing, all the advancement in technology is going to get rid of you very soon. As I’ve stated before, I am not saying this with pleasure. Again your side of the aisle has been completely screwed over the last 10 years but yet you still bow down to your masters who would cut your throat in a minute. Go ahead and keep hoping for jobs that are throwaway because your job is next. The corporate vultures are coming after all of us..

 

[brownIEman]

“97” is ancient history..get over it..

Why would UPS be more competitive if they had control over all our pensions..?

Why would UPS be more competitive if they didn’t create more full time positions..?

Internet sales are not going away, Global markets are expanding. The real reason why we are not getting a bigger piece is that we lost the concept of “Doing the Right Thing” for every employee (Union or Not). Loyalty goes both ways.

If a strike occurs it will be again as it was back 26 years ago a Corporate Decision .

O’Brien will continue to repeat that fact if things do not get done this week.

If Corporate wants a strike… let it be….guaranteed if it happens…

Those involved will be participating in a historic event.

There is a powder keg ready to explode and this possible strike might be the spark . People are angry out there over seeing the hypocrisy of these Pampered Corporate Executives that continue to get richer by denying their lower class workers and their families the same opportunities for a better future and to share in their Company’s growth.

UPS is not losing money and can easily afford what O’Brien is asking.. Bottom line..

UPS would have kept more market share if it could have contained cost and competed on price.

View attachment 439420

Drugs are bad kids. That post was actually fairly clear other than the 'tasked' instead of asked part about customers that I have corrected.
Wait for the drugs to metabolize out of your system and read it again when you've come down, I'm sure you'll get it.

 

[brownIEman]

We put incredible effort into giving human beings a second chance. That’s our job. And if you’re worried about the amount of work that is going away, ask Carol why her claim to fame is “better not bigger”. You’re very concerned about the labor issue. You should be more concerned about your job disappearing, all the advancement in technology is going to get rid of you very soon. As I’ve stated before, I am not saying this with pleasure. Again your side of the aisle has been completely screwed over the last 10 years but yet you still bow down to your masters who would cut your throat in a minute. Go ahead and keep hoping for jobs that are throwaway because your job is next. The corporate vultures are coming after all of us..

Yes, you put a lot of effort into trying to get poor workers a second chance (and yes, they are human beings and deserve your representation), but zero effort into encouraging them not to be poor workers. That piece used to be part of union culture.

No one 'bows down' to their masters. Human beings have tried to cope the best they can with a changing dynamic in the market and the work place.
Which, by the way, is exactly what Carol has done with her Better not Bigger. She has simply, finally, articulated the reality UPS has been in for decades.
Simply put, UPS' cost structure has guaranteed that UPS cannot compete on price.

 

[UnionStrong]

@brownIEman is probably still pissed about losing his pension and paying for his health care now. Maybe he should’ve joined a union.

He sounds like a disgruntled IE fool

 

[DELACROIX]

View attachment 439420

Is he still licking those frogs … ?

 

[Box Handler of Dallas]

Only way I would support is if they would get zero of the negotiated benefits, and are not represented by the union, in any way.

THIS is the way RTW should be! You don't pay dues, absolutely zero representation. You call in and get fired, too bad, no help for you. No option time, vacations, insurance, nothing for you other than a pay check. Supervisor working, you don't get to file on that.

 

[Thebrownblob]

Yes, you put a lot of effort into trying to get poor workers a second chance (and yes, they are human beings and deserve your representation), but zero effort into encouraging them not to be poor workers. That piece used to be part of union culture.

No one 'bows down' to their masters. Human beings have tried to cope the best they can with a changing dynamic in the market and the work place.
Which, by the way, is exactly what Carol has done with her Better not Bigger. She has simply, finally, articulated the reality UPS has been in for decades.
Simply put, UPS' cost structure has guaranteed that UPS cannot compete on price.

Yeah, I’m glad you know what I do and don’t do. You wouldn’t have a You wouldn’t have a clue what union culture was if it smack you in the face stop making ignorant statements, And by the way, Carol has not done better not bigger she’s done better cutting. Cutting services, cutting management. Yes, we’re really struggling. FedEx is absolutely eating our lunch with the kind of work force. You apparently would like. Your Sounds like an idiot. Your assumptions and bitterness are a cancer on this company.

 

[brownIEman]

UPS is Bigger now and delivers more packages with less market share. If we had 50 percent market share we'd need 5 million plus employees.
If we increase market share that means we increase volume. If we increase volume we must increase our workforce and infrastructure. We'll never be able to increase volume without hiring more employees and the union isn't going anywhere.
UPS could have had 100 percent of the Amazon volume if they would have told them we're done if they start their own delivery business. We were more concerned about making our quarterly numbers than worrying about the long term.
The only reason we are losing market share is because of corporate stupidity.

No UPS would not need 5 million employees, at 40 million packages/day it would need about 1 million give or take. From '97 to now UPS could have easily grown the network that much.

Threatening to not deliver Amazon packages would not in any way have stopped Amazon from building its own delivery network. That is just fantasy. Likely UPS refusing would have accelerated the build up of Amazons network. Amazon has plenty of capital to spend (remember, Amazon does not pay it's share holders).

UPS could have nearly 100 percent of the Amazon volume if UPS could have figured out a way to provide full delivery service seven days a week, 360 days a year (far fewer holidays). It took UPS years to start delivering Saturday ground, and I believe they still cannot in some locals? Imagine if they tried Sunday delivery...

UPS total volume has dropped the past 2 years. Not sure if that's an effect of the pandemic bubble, or the start of a bigger trend, but we'll see.

 

[Thebrownblob]

No UPS would not need 5 million employees, at 40 million packages/day it would need about 1 million give or take. From '97 to now UPS could have easily grown the network that much.

Threatening to not deliver Amazon packages would not in any way have stopped Amazon from building its own delivery network. That is just fantasy. Likely UPS refusing would have accelerated the build up of Amazons network. Amazon has plenty of capital to spend (remember, Amazon does not pay it's share holders).

UPS could have nearly 100 percent of the Amazon volume if UPS could have figured out a way to provide full delivery service seven days a week, 360 days a year (far fewer holidays). It took UPS years to start delivering Saturday ground, and I believe they still cannot in some locals? Imagine if they tried Sunday delivery...

UPS total volume has dropped the past 2 years. Not sure if that's an effect of the pandemic bubble, or the start of a bigger trend, but we'll see.

Everyone’s volume has dropped in almost every sector of the shipping world.

 

[DELACROIX]

Yes, you put a lot of effort into trying to get poor workers a second chance (and yes, they are human beings and deserve your representation), but zero effort into encouraging them not to be poor workers. That piece used to be part of union culture.

No one 'bows down' to their masters. Human beings have tried to cope the best they can with a changing dynamic in the market and the work place.
Which, by the way, is exactly what Carol has done with her Better not Bigger. She has simply, finally, articulated the reality UPS has been in for decades.
Simply put, UPS' cost structure has guaranteed that UPS cannot compete on price.

I do not agree..We can compete on price and could vastly destroy our competitors on service quality. These Amazon and Fed Ex Ground Contractors are a fly by night operation, eventually they will come to the conclusion that there is no long term future for them, probably seeing it now from the chatter on the Fed Ex forum.

Fact is UPS raises their rates at the same pace as our competitors, they added a lot of surcharges, some of them substantial since the last Contract.

Maybe Corporate should reconsider their service quality more than their own pocketbooks and start rewarding those who have contributed to the fact that their stock had doubled over the last 3 years. Trends are like polling, do not mean Jack…because no one knows the future.

Frankly speaking.. every time I hear one our highly compensated executives speak, I always leave with the impression that they never leave their corporate desks, and understanding their jargon… forget about it…

Must be way over my head.. or it is just plain overinflated gibberish…

Another consideration is that this is not 1997, the membership has a lot more access to the true nature of both the Union and Company. You think that the media coverage in the 1997 strike was outrageous, wait till 2023 if it comes down to that. Every dirty little secret will be exposed…all those sound bites we are hearing from corporate will be analyzed and brought to the public forums.

Does UPS really want to become an example for the rest of the Corporate world if they decide to do something stupid. Also, the feds will be watching and waiting…It is no time to play games with any Collective Bargaining agreements, the general public is not in the mood.