TonyQ's True Intentions

[Tony Q]

I'm still trying to understand why I would be misguided to vote no. The guidance that has been offered for voting yes is extremely lacking. I guess the contract does have something for everyone, but that doesn't mean it's something good for everyone. All of the "good" points that effect me are simply maintaining what I have. I would probably vote yes if it were simply an across the board maintenance of conditions and compensation, but it's not.

The negatives far outweigh the neutrals. If you want me to vote yes to the negatives in the contract, I need something in return, but I'm not getting it. Some people are getting a better deal, but most people are not. The concerns and uncertainty surrounding the 22.4 language are being dismissed and not addressed satisfactorily by those who think we should vote yes.

If someone would explain the 22.4 language so that I can understand why it's a good thing, then I would be more amiable. But all we get is "wait and see" or "this is to address the concerns of the members". Neither of those answers is good enough. If those of us with concerns were treated with the respect we deserve, the conversation would be a lot more productive. So I ask again... guide me, why should I vote yes?

My first question is are you part time or full time.


My second retort would be why cant people wait till all the informations is all out there and the two man takes place. Then the officers and agent can take it back to the membership why its fresh in their mind and explain this. I will explain why, the teamsters aren't the best at communications and the advent of social media makes you want information ASAP. During negotiations its not in the best interests of the whole bargaining unit to put it all out there, so members search for information and this starts all the disinformation. The anger and resentment.



As far as how you vote, I will not guide you, nor explain it further. Go to your contract ratification meeting.

 

[Doubleparkedrunner]

I think that's a big part of why the union is desperate to dupe, goad, guilt, and browbeat us into voting yes. They screwed up with the pension and they want us to willingly accept concessions so they can keep it from falling apart completely. I finally ran across enough of tony's posts where he mentions the value of the contract to where I think I understand the logic behind the union's actions.

They think we have it so good that we should be happy to get a contract that is nothing but one giant step backwards. If the union wants our money to bail out the pension, they should get us some better non-monetary language at least.

I agree whole heartedly. I bet a lot of drivers would be amenable to flatlining pay for a contract or two if it meant that we were treated more like humans instead of just another cog in the machine.
in other words, if they had teeth in the contract against harassment, Not Just Better but some actual GOOD 9.5 protection language , hard DOT cap of 60 hours per week max unless an employee wants to work up to 70.

I don't believe most drivers think that our overall compensation is not good. We all understand we are paid well. But all the money in the world isn't worth it if the working conditions suck. Their is no reason good / great pay must be handcuffed to bad / egregious treatment of he employees.

 

[Time for change]

Yea we really believe it’s in the best interest of the members to keep it top secret and only the one man bargaining team and his puppet master should know anything about what’s going on. For those of us that can read, we know it’s a junk contract. It appears more locals are recommending a no vote on national? Yup the one man bargaining team was a complete failure. I hope next contract the IBT puts up at least someone that took a few classes like Carey did at Cornell. Preferably a highly educated team of trained negotiators though. The information brownout does not sit well especially with an organization with such a long history of corruption, organized crime, and other shenanigans. So many grey areas and just flat out poor and unfair language. The company has to be salivating at the opportunity to exploit this contract.

 

[Doubleparkedrunner]

My first question is are you part time or full time.


My second retort would be why cant people wait till all the informations is all out there and the two man takes place. Then the officers and agent can take it back to the membership why its fresh in their mind and explain this. I will explain why, the teamsters aren't the best at communications and the advent of social media makes you want information ASAP. During negotiations its not in the best interests of the whole bargaining unit to put it all out there, so members search for information and this starts all the disinformation. The anger and resentment.



As far as how you vote, I will not guide you, nor explain it further. Go to your contract ratification meeting.

Maybe if this was all done by the actual date of August 1 then we wouldn't have to speculate.

The teamsters need to better themselves at communicating. The art of communication is not akin to brain surgery.

If the teamsters and / or ups is not communicating all the good and bad points of the contract out to us then that is their CHOICE and there is a reason for it. It is most assuredly strategic and not just an oversight.

If it was truly just the teamsters that were inept at communicating then would it not be in the company's best interest to get the information out? So that just makes me wonder why the company doesn't communicate either.

What is their excuse? My guess is that they prefer to keep all contract language as ambiguous as possible in order to have the" right " to abuse said language at a later date if deemed appropriate by the Atlanta Illuminati .

 

[Tony Q]

Maybe if this was all done by the actual date of August 1 then we wouldn't have to speculate.

The teamsters need to better themselves at communicating. The art of communication is not akin to brain surgery.

If the teamsters and / or ups is not communicating all the good and bad points of the contract out to us then that is their CHOICE and there is a reason for it. It is most assuredly strategic and not just an oversight.

If it was truly just the teamsters that were inept at communicating then would it not be in the company's best interest to get the information out? So that just makes me wonder why the company doesn't communicate either.

What is their excuse? My guess is that they prefer to keep all contract language as ambiguous as possible in order to have the" right " to abuse said language at a later date if deemed appropriate by the Atlanta Illuminati .

I agree and understand you thought process. You do have to understand that slamming started a long time ago though.

 

[Doubleparkedrunner]

I agree and understand you thought process. You do have to understand that slamming started a long time ago though.

"slamming" .
I'm not aware of this term.

I'm thinking it's something to do with stalling the vote.

 

[Mugarolla]

My guess is that they prefer to keep all contract language as ambiguous as possibl

I'm not going to look it up, but @BigUnionGuy had a great point in a previous post.

I'm not quoting, but he said something to the effect of we also want ambiguous language. Gives the BA's wiggle room to get dumb people out of sticky situations for doing stupid things.

If everything was spelled out in black and white, well, good luck with that.

 

[wide load]

My first question is are you part time or full time.


My second retort would be why cant people wait till all the informations is all out there and the two man takes place. Then the officers and agent can take it back to the membership why its fresh in their mind and explain this. I will explain why, the teamsters aren't the best at communications and the advent of social media makes you want information ASAP. During negotiations its not in the best interests of the whole bargaining unit to put it all out there, so members search for information and this starts all the disinformation. The anger and resentment.



As far as how you vote, I will not guide you, nor explain it further. Go to your contract ratification meeting.

All the information is out there. Just read the language you’ll be able to tell it’s crap!

 

[stink219]

My first question is are you part time or full time.


My second retort would be why cant people wait till all the informations is all out there and the two man takes place. Then the officers and agent can take it back to the membership why its fresh in their mind and explain this. I will explain why, the teamsters aren't the best at communications and the advent of social media makes you want information ASAP. During negotiations its not in the best interests of the whole bargaining unit to put it all out there, so members search for information and this starts all the disinformation. The anger and resentment.



As far as how you vote, I will not guide you, nor explain it further. Go to your contract ratification meeting.

All the information is out there. Just read the language you’ll be able to tell it’s crap!

Hey , I agree with Wide Load.

 

[a911scanner]

My first question is are you part time or full time.


My second retort would be why cant people wait till all the informations is all out there and the two man takes place. Then the officers and agent can take it back to the membership why its fresh in their mind and explain this. I will explain why, the teamsters aren't the best at communications and the advent of social media makes you want information ASAP. During negotiations its not in the best interests of the whole bargaining unit to put it all out there, so members search for information and this starts all the disinformation. The anger and resentment.



As far as how you vote, I will not guide you, nor explain it further. Go to your contract ratification meeting.

What exactly is going to change after the 2 man meetings. We already have the proposed MA and proposed supplements out there to peruse.

On top of that, quite a large number of IBT representatives & BA's are saying to vote yes. This tells me the 2 man meetings will do little to nothing to change what we already see as not very acceptable.

Please inform me if this line of thinking is skewed.

 

[Tony Q]

What exactly is going to change after the 2 man meetings. We already have the proposed MA and proposed supplements out there to peruse.

On top of that, quite a large number of IBT representatives & BA's are saying to vote yes. This tells me the 2 man meetings will do little to nothing to change what we already see as not very acceptable.

Please inform me if this line of thinking is skewed.

Believe it or not all the BA's don't fully understand everything as of yet. They will get a presentation and then why it's fresh in their mind hopefully have meetings with their local members.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

My first question is are you part time or full time.


My second retort would be why cant people wait till all the informations is all out there and the two man takes place. Then the officers and agent can take it back to the membership why its fresh in their mind and explain this. I will explain why, the teamsters aren't the best at communications and the advent of social media makes you want information ASAP. During negotiations its not in the best interests of the whole bargaining unit to put it all out there, so members search for information and this starts all the disinformation. The anger and resentment.



As far as how you vote, I will not guide you, nor explain it further. Go to your contract ratification meeting.

I'm full time. Just finished my progression. I have nothing to look forward to in this contract. Drivers still in progression will get a nice raise, money that I did without for 4 years. New drivers will get even more, but bully for them. I just have to live with the fact that I got hired as a driver under the worst deal for new drivers probably ever.

Your second retort is one of the ones that I already stated wasn't good enough. Negotiations should have started months ago, we should have had something to vote on by July so if it got voted down, we could renegotiate and hopefully have had a ratified contract by August 1st. If I were two months late making a delivery, I'd be out a job. If I hid information from the people who paid my wages, I'd be out of a job. I'm not asking for all the information, I just want to know the logic behind the decisions, and why it is good for UPSers. Since the union keeps deflecting and not answering the hard questions I'm left to assume the are either just incompetent, or they are intentionally hiding their true motives. They think most people are too dumb to notice, and try to discredit those who aren't. And I'm not happy about that.

I already know my local is recommending a no vote. But I'm going to the meeting and see if I can make a motion to take a vote of no confidence in the national negotiation team. See what happens...

 

[Tony Q]

I'm full time. Just finished my progression. I have nothing to look forward to in this contract. Drivers still in progression will get a nice raise, money that I did without for 4 years. New drivers will get even more, but bully for them. I just have to live with the fact that I got hired as a driver under the worst deal for new drivers probably ever.

Your second retort is one of the ones that I already stated wasn't good enough. Negotiations should have started months ago, we should have had something to vote on by July so if it got voted down, we could renegotiate and hopefully have had a ratified contract by August 1st. If I were two months late making a delivery, I'd be out a job. If I hid information from the people who paid my wages, I'd be out of a job. I'm not asking for all the information, I just want to know the logic behind the decisions, and why it is good for UPSers. Since the union keeps deflecting and not answering the hard questions I'm left to assume the are either just incompetent, or they are intentionally hiding their true motives. They think most people are too dumb to notice, and try to discredit those who aren't. And I'm not happy about that.

I already know my local is recommending a no vote. But I'm going to the meeting and see if I can make a motion to take a vote of no confidence in the national negotiation team. See what happens...

You have nothing to look forward to in this next contract. Not the $40 an hour, the benefits, the pension, nothing. When people like you post this crap it really makes me want to strike this company and have the business get hit hard. Turn the general public off to us. Then when its settled you work two shifts for the next 5 years.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

You have nothing to look forward to in this next contract. Not the $40 an hour, the benefits, the pension, nothing. When people like you post this crap it really makes me want to strike this company and have the business get hit hard. Turn the general public off to us. Then when its settled you work two shifts for the next 5 years.

That's right, shut down because you don't have a good answer. Make me look like the bad guy because I have it soooo good. I already have a pension, benefits and the wage increases will barely keep up with inflation, or not. That's called maintaining. I get to keep what I have. And I already said if that was all the contract did, I would be happy. But it's not and I'm not. You keep demonizing me because I want answers, but you refuse to take the time to even explain a little. As such, I'm lead to believe either you know nothing, or what you do know is so bad that you can't risk revealing it. Which should I believe?

 

[a911scanner]

You have nothing to look forward to in this next contract. Not the $40 an hour, the benefits, the pension, nothing. When people like you post this crap it really makes me want to strike this company and have the business get hit hard. Turn the general public off to us. Then when its settled you work two shifts for the next 5 years.

Which part of MONEY ISN'T EVERYTHING do you not understand?

It is part of it, that is why we work. But, we should all "Work to live", not "Live to work".

 

[Tony Q]

That's right, shut down because you don't have a good answer. Make me look like the bad guy because I have it soooo good. I already have a pension, benefits and the wage increases will barely keep up with inflation, or not. That's called maintaining. I get to keep what I have. And I already said if that was all the contract did, I would be happy. But it's not and I'm not. You keep demonizing me because I want answers, but you refuse to take the time to even explain a little. As such, I'm lead to believe either you know nothing, or what you do know is so bad that you can't risk revealing it. Which should I believe?

I am fine with either. Vote no also.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

I am fine with either. Vote no also.

Still no answers? Ok then.

 

[Mugarolla]

I have nothing to look forward to in this contract.

Really?

Must not have even read it.

New drivers will get even more, but bully for them.

So you're mad because someone else got something that you did not get?

Welcome to life.

I just have to live with the fact that I got hired as a driver under the worst deal for new drivers probably ever.

Yes, you probably did.

So you want to screw everyone else because you got screwed?

Negotiations should have started months ago

Do you really know when they started?

I do, and apparently, you don't.

we should have had something to vote on by July so if it got voted down, we could renegotiate and hopefully have had a ratified contract by August 1st

Maybe you should take a class or two on contract negotiations.

If I were two months late making a delivery, I'd be out a job.

So you are saying to fire the Union because they did not have an agreement by August 1?

You really are clueless.

If I hid information from the people who paid my wages, I'd be out of a job.

What are they hiding?

The proposed language has been published for all to read.

Understanding the language may be a problem for some people, though.

I'm not asking for all the information

You have all the information.

Read it.

I'm not asking for all the information, I just want to know the logic behind the decisions, and why it is good for UPSers

Fair question.

Since the union keeps deflecting and not answering the hard questions I'm left to assume the are either just incompetent

I think they could have done better, but the language has not even been signed off on and proposed to us.

Let's wait and see what happens, then you may have the right to bash the Union.

They think most people are too dumb to notice, and try to discredit those who aren't.

Again, you are clueless on contract negotiations.

The IBT has not even proposed it to the locals yet, what gives you the right to demand that they answer your questions?

They could change their tune and go back to the negotiating table depending on the results of the Locals meeting.

We do not know, it has not happened yet.

And I'm not happy about that.

That is your right.

I say, wait and see.

I have issues with certain articles of the language, but I will wait to see if these changes even make it to the proposal to us.

Let's see what the Locals say first.

Negotiations 101. Take a class.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Really?

Must not have even read it.



So you're mad because someone else got something that you did not get?

Welcome to life.



Yes, you probably did.

So you want to screw everyone else because you got screwed?



Do you really know when they started?

I do, and apparently, you don't.



Maybe you should take a class or two on contract negotiations.



So you are saying to fire the Union because they did not have an agreement by August 1?

You really are clueless.



What are they hiding?

The proposed language has been published for all to read.

Understanding the language may be a problem for some people, though.



You have all the information.

Read it.



Fair question.



I think they could have done better, but the language has not even been signed off on and proposed to us.

Let's wait and see what happens, then you may have the right to bash the Union.



Again, you are clueless on contract negotiations.

The IBT has not even proposed it to the locals yet, what gives you the right to demand that they answer your questions?

They could change their tune and go back to the negotiating table depending on the results of the Locals meeting.

We do not know, it has not happened yet.



That is your right.

I say, wait and see.

I have issues with certain articles of the language, but I will wait to see if these changes even make it to the proposal to us.

Let's see what the Locals say first.

Negotiations 101. Take a class.

You're only reading into my posts what you want, again. I can try to disillusion you, but I don't think anything I say would make it through your deluded filters.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Ok, blocked out 2 hr chunk of time? Check.

Sucker for lost causes and fighting pointless battles? Check.

You got me, here we go...

Really?

Must not have even read it.

I did read it. Everything that applies to me that isn't a concession is just shy of or at maintaining what I have. I repeat, if it were just a maintenance contract, I would be happy.

So you're mad because someone else got something that you did not get?

Welcome to life.

So you want to screw everyone else because you got screwed?

That's all I need... Life lessons from you.
I repeat, bully for them.
I got screwed the same as everyone before me got screwed as each contract gave more concessions. The difference is I am now being retroactively screwed as well. We're talking tens of thousands of dollars over four years, only an idiot wouldn't be upset about that. If the new drivers got increases in progression equal to inflation, that would be as good a deal as I got, which would still put them ahead in one sense, because they wouldn't be getting screwed by comparison like I was screwed by comparison to the drivers before me. I'm ok with them getting inflationary increases, so how does that mean I want them to get screwed?

If the money is desperately needed elsewhere, why not take it from here?

Do you really know when they started?

I do, and apparently, you don't.

The first I heard anything about negotiations starting was May. If it was earlier than that, please, do enlighten me. That's all I'm seeking. Show me where I am wrong. Straw man arguments and ad hominem aren't helping.

Maybe you should take a class or two on contract negotiations.

Why do I need to?

So you are saying to fire the Union because they did not have an agreement by August 1?

You really are clueless.

All I'm saying is if I were performing as badly as they are, I would be fired. If you think I'm suggesting the union should be fired, that speaks more to your thinking than mine. Replace the negotiators with better ones maybe?

What are they hiding?

That's what I'm trying to find out. They're telling me it's a great contract, but refuse to explain how or why it is. So either they're wrong, or they're hiding something. Plenty of people are asking the same, perfectly reasonable questions, and being met with deflection and stonewalling. Maybe I have bad sources, that's why I'm asking for enlightenment because I really do want to make an informed decision.

The proposed language has been published for all to read.

Understanding the language may be a problem for some people, though.

You have all the information.

Read it.

I've read what's available. I believe I understand it, and I have put in due dilligence to discuss it with others to make sure I understand it correctly. I'm still being told I don't understand it, so I am asking for guidance, and I am only being met with insults, innuendo, condescension and fallacy.

I think they could have done better, but the language has not even been signed off on and proposed to us.

Let's wait and see what happens, then you may have the right to bash the Union.

I'm just seeking answers, I may have criticized the negotiators for what I think is a bad job, if that constitutes bashing the union, oh well.

Again, you are clueless on contract negotiations.

I don't think so. It's more complicated than just simple negotiation. They are negotiating on our behalf, and it seems like they are negotiating on their own behalf. If I'm wrong about that, that's what I want to know. I know when you negotiate you give and take, from my perspective it seems like we're giving a lot, and not getting much in return, and what we are getting isn't as good as the union wants us to think it is. Maybe the negotiating team needs lessons in negotiation? Agency law requires an agent to act in your interest as if it were their own. I want to know how my agents think what they are doing is in my interest, and a lack of an answer is usually a bad sign.

The IBT has not even proposed it to the locals yet, what gives you the right to demand that they answer your questions?

I'm a dues paying member, that's what gives me the right! What gives them the right to refuse to answer?

They could change their tune and go back to the negotiating table depending on the results of the Locals meeting.

We do not know, it has not happened yet.

This is something I did not know. Finally a small nugget of useful information. Everything I've read says we're just waiting to wrap up regional negotiations, then it goes out to a vote. I've heard mentions of two man meetings, but I didn't realize that the locals could reject the proposal. I would hope that it is obvious that if the language changed, I/we would have to look at the changes and adjust my/our opinions accordingly. It should be equally obvious that the objections are over the current TA, not some hypothetical future version. If we don't inform ourselves, and voice our opinions how is the hypothetical future version supposed to come to be? If no one objects, the leaders would have to assume everyone is ok with it how it is.

That is your right.

Gee, thanks mister!

I say, wait and see.

I have issues with certain articles of the language, but I will wait to see if these changes even make it to the proposal to us.

Let's see what the Locals say first.

Negotiations 101. Take a class.

So which is it? Read the information? Or wait and see? If I read the information, didn't like what I read, discussed it with others, talked to my BA about my concerns, isn't that what would be expected of an active, participating member? I'm doing everything I know to do. I'm still being told that I'm wrong, but no one seems to be able to explain to me why I am wrong. Without any further, useful information I am forced to conclude that I am right.