Union - is it Socialism?

[rickyb]

Is union participation a form of socialism? If so, what does that mean for people forced to join the union to have a job at UPS? If you are a Trump supporter how do you reconcile your political leanings and socialist union affiliations? Asking for a friend. Hope nobody gets irritable or starts throwing out Tidepod bs, wacko conspiracy 911 Truther crap.

if trump is pro worker to you (hes not in reality) then unions are pro worker.

the better question is capitalism tyrannical? taking orders, bosses, no voting power from workers, people hating their jobs.

people need to compare what capitalism has in common with previous economic system to know why its still ultimately a failure. what it has in common is centralization of power and therefore abuse of power. a few people have the real power and they use it to enrich themselves at everyone else's expense.

unions are a step in the right direction to giving more people more voting power at work, instead of having a few people with all the power which is what we currently have.

we also have to be humble about instances in human history where the majority of the population all believed something and they were wrong, like the planets revolving around the earth, previous ty economic systems which centralized power (slavery, feudalism, state socialism). a modern day example which should make you question whether we are doing everything wrong is low unionization rate. any honest economist will tell you workers are better off with unions. and yet they are so low.

 

[rickyb]

it's not socialism unless the government forces itself into the arena

an agreement between labor and company is natural and old as time, it just depends on what is exchanged by each side throughout history

if a government does more than basic protection of the union, perhaps such as mandating them, then yes it is dipping into socialism

that said, socialism will always exist, it is part of the human condition (the same as capitalism is); the trick is where is the balance point that protects the people (because why need a government otherwise) and maximizes opportunity while removing the minimum amount of liberty

just because companies and workers come to a collective agreement, doesnt mean its smooth sailing after that. capitalists and workers have conflicting interests after.

 

[1989]

Buying UPS stock was mine.

But you got it under the corrupt way.

 

[Box Ox]

If you are a Trump supporter how do you reconcile your political leanings and socialist union affiliations?

Don't feel guilty about benefitting from Union pay/benefits/protections. Have a lotta Trumpies on here who don't pay attention to the fact that Republicans would end Unions and the worker rights and protections that come with union membership if they could.

On that note, it'll be interesting to see how the conservative-majority Supreme Court rules this week on mandatory public union fees. A ruling in favor of Janus (plaintiff) would end mandatory union fees for about five million public employees from 23 states without right-to-work laws.

 

[Pullman Brown]

Somebody take this mess to current events please! @Indecisi0n @over9five

 

[Box Ox]

Somebody take this mess to current events please! @Indecisi0n @over9five

Did my mention of the Supreme Court case make the thread more about a current event than a union issue?

 

[UnconTROLLed]

it's not socialism unless the government forces itself into the arena

an agreement between labor and company is natural and old as time, it just depends on what is exchanged by each side throughout history

if a government does more than basic protection of the union, perhaps such as mandating them, then yes it is dipping into socialism

that said, socialism will always exist, it is part of the human condition (the same as capitalism is); the trick is where is the balance point that protects the people (because why need a government otherwise) and maximizes opportunity while removing the minimum amount of liberty

Politics and civics are not your forte

 

[UnconTROLLed]

The unions were more socialist prior to WWII. Worker control, authority from the bottom up. Very different today, not really socialist. Very top heavy with power balance.

 

[Catatonic]

But you got it under the corrupt way.

OK
I haven't heard any stupid today.

please expand on 'corrupt way'.

 

[JL 0513]

just because companies and workers come to a collective agreement, doesnt mean its smooth sailing after that. capitalists and workers have conflicting interests after.

Workers are capitalists. We get a pay check to buy things. Capitalism.

You constantly show your lack of understanding of capitalism. The reason America is what it is and why everyone wants to come here.

 

[1989]

OK
I haven't heard any stupid today.

please expand on 'corrupt way'.

You know, when the peons could not get it.

 

[rickyb]

Workers are capitalists. We get a pay check to buy things. Capitalism.

You constantly show your lack of understanding of capitalism. The reason America is what it is and why everyone wants to come here.

news flash everyone doesnt want to come to america.

secondly workers arent necessarily capitalists because they dont own capital. slavery had workers.

 

[Catatonic]

You know, when the peons could not get it.

Because they chose to not go into management?

Choices!

 

[Box Ox]

OK
I haven't heard any stupid today.

please expand on 'corrupt way'.

I dunno about you, but @Old Man Jingles probably has a lot to answer for!

 

[brown_trousers]

If you work in a non right to work state, yes, joining the union and paying your dues is mandatory. Paying my monthly dues is the best investment I make

Ok thank you for the clarification. Not an expert but that sounds like socialism.

That logic doesnt work. Just because we are required to join the union to have a job here, doesnt mean this is socialism.

If you live in america you are forced into joining us (by being a citizen, a green card worker, foreign student, etc) but that does not make the united states a socialist country, we are very much capitalistic.

 

[Indecisi0n]

Somebody take this mess to current events please! @Indecisi0n @over9five

Moving now.

 

[JL 0513]

news flash everyone doesnt want to come to america.

secondly workers arent necessarily capitalists because they dont own capital. slavery had workers.

Capitalism isn't just about those who own capital. Capitalism is the free exchanging of goods and services. When a worker works, they are capitalizing on their laber. They receive pay to engage in other exchanges in the marketplace where others are doing the same. Everyone benefits.

 

[Non sequitur]

Unions are a wedge between big government and big businesses, so says my Republican U.S. rep. and I agree. They (unions) get in trouble when they morph into a left wing p.a.c. Union means your getting the highest quality worker.

 

[Box Ox]

Unions are a wedge between big government and big businesses, so says my Republican U.S. rep. and I agree.

I believe the Teamsters are a wedge between me and the Company having its way with my fair pay, fair benefits and protections from arbitrary/unreasonable performance standards and firing.

 

[rickyb]

Capitalism isn't just about those who own capital. Capitalism is the free exchanging of goods and services. When a worker works, they are capitalizing on their laber. They receive pay to engage in other exchanges in the marketplace where others are doing the same. Everyone benefits.

exchange of goods and services is a "market" not capitalism because you had exchange of goods and services under slavery.

getting "a pay check to buy things" is consumerism not unique to capitalism. people bought stuff under other systems

everyone doesnt benefit equally under capitalism, there are mostly losers and a few big winners.

workers recieve pay under other economic systems besides capitalism.