Union - is it Socialism?

[wide load]

there are no "means of production" in a ing shipping company, we are a service industry

Lmfboooooo at “service”

 

[Yaba Daba Do]

everyone doesnt benefit equally under capitalism

Nor does everyone work equally hard under capitalism. Capitalism provides equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. You have the same opportunity to start a business as Jim Casey did but if you don't work as hard as him or take the risk of investing in it to start it you may not have the same outcome. If you don't want to take this risk or put in as much work as him that's okay, after he has created a successful business you can get him to hire you for a guaranteed paycheck every week as long as you do the job you agreed to.

 

[OrionsBitch]

Is union participation a form of socialism? If so, what does that mean for people forced to join the union to have a job at UPS? If you are a Trump supporter how do you reconcile your political leanings and socialist union affiliations? Asking for a friend. Hope nobody gets irritable or starts throwing out Tidepod bs, wacko conspiracy 911 Truther crap.

Unions aren't socialism......socialism is an all encompasinge ideology that controls all facets if life. Unions are private organizations. They are optional. Also you can have social ideas. That doesn't mean it's anywhere near socialism. Ffs go read a book.

 

[Daf]

Is union participation a form of socialism? If so, what does that mean for people forced to join the union to have a job at UPS? If you are a Trump supporter how do you reconcile your political leanings and socialist union affiliations? Asking for a friend. Hope nobody gets irritable or starts throwing out Tidepod bs, wacko conspiracy 911 Truther crap.

I am not forced to work at Ups. I CHOOSE to. I feel I should be paying for my representation. If I happen to get fired I’m going to ask the union to help get my job back. Should that be free? It’s an insurance policy on my job. You buy insurance on your car I hope.

 

[Hethatbeking]

That's a good question. as long as the economy keeps booming it is sustainable but if we have a worldwide retraction that lasts a long time like it did in the 80's you will see widespread layoffs and ugliness.

i believe the economy is a house of cards . sustained by major fraud and corruption. nobody on the planet knows where the DOW should be but it's not 25,000.
2008 was a warning that no one heeded.

True. But no one is building new malls either. The consumer preference of getting everything they want delivered to them is not going to change boom, bust or anything in between.

 

[rickyb]

You are thinking of capitalism as simply an economic system by itself. Most countries don't operate in a black and white system. The US has many socialist government programs but is still a capitalists society. Socialist countries still have open markets using capitalism.

Any form of market trade is by definition capitalism. A farmer who owns a cow, even in a country that is largely socialist, still capitalizes from the milk produced and later the meat. There's no country where the government owns and controls the means of ALL production, unless I'm mistaken. A country such as North Korea might be close.

You need to understand what the term capitalism means, not just the broader economic systems.

they had markets in slavery...

and yes the american system is defined as "state capitalist"

capitalists believe in government OR markets whichever profits them more.

 

[rickyb]

Nor does everyone work equally hard under capitalism. Capitalism provides equality of opportunity not equality of outcome. You have the same opportunity to start a business as Jim Casey did but if you don't work as hard as him or take the risk of investing in it to start it you may not have the same outcome. If you don't want to take this risk or put in as much work as him that's okay, after he has created a successful business you can get him to hire you for a guaranteed paycheck every week as long as you do the job you agreed to.

if your born poor or rich you will have very different opportunities.

the problem with capitalism is it centralizes risk, reward, and power. not that workers arent at safety risk, job risk, etc.

 

[OrionsBitch]

if your born poor or rich you will have very different opportunities.

the problem with capitalism is it centralizes risk, reward, and power. not that workers arent at safety risk, job risk, etc.

Wrong....we don't have capitalism....we have crony calitcapit. That is what you get when you continue to elect officials and leaders who grow the government and ultimately affect every facet of life. If we had a small limited government like the founding fathers wanted we wouldn't be having all the issues we do now. We need a truely free market system with less regulations etc.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Unions aren't socialism......socialism is an all encompasinge ideology that controls all facets if life. Unions are private organizations. They are optional. Also you can have social ideas. That doesn't mean it's anywhere near socialism. Ffs go read a book.

[
State Socialism

State socialism is a classification for any socialist political and economic perspective advocating state ownership of the means of production either as a temporary measure in the transition from capitalism to socialism, or as characteristic of socialism itself.[1] It is often used interchangeably with state capitalism in reference to the economic systems of Marxist–Leninist states such as the Soviet Union to highlight the role of state planning in these economies, with the critics of said system referring to it more commonly as "state capitalism".[2] Libertarian and democratic socialists claim that these states had only a limited number of socialist characteristics.[3][4][5] However, Marxist–Leninists maintain that workers in the Soviet Union and other Marxist–Leninist states had genuine control over the means of production through institutions such as trade unions.[6]

State socialism is held in contrast with libertarian socialism, which rejects the view that socialism can be constructed by using existing state institutions or by governmental policies. By contrast, proponents of state socialism claim that the state—through practical considerations of governing—must play at least a temporary part in building socialism. It is possible to conceive of a democratic state that owns the means of production, but it is internally organized in a participatory, cooperative fashion, thereby achieving both social ownership of productive property and workplace democracy in day-to-day operations.

 

[UnconTROLLed]

Yes, unions are supposed to be socialist. LOL

 

[MrBates]

Is union participation a form of socialism? If so, what does that mean for people forced to join the union to have a job at UPS? If you are a Trump supporter how do you reconcile your political leanings and socialist union affiliations? Asking for a friend. Hope nobody gets irritable or starts throwing out Tidepod bs, wacko conspiracy 911 Truther crap.

I wouldnt say its socialism. Socialism to me is forced wealth distribution. We simply bargin/negotiate as a team to get, (supposedly) the very best deal.

 

[bbsam]

In many respects it follows socialistic principals but in our case the government isn't involved so the two private parties involved are agreeing to operate a certain way.

"Collective" bargaining is joining a collective. Hence socialism in that sense. And that we are all paid the same regardless of work performance. That's far separated from the idea of individualism, self accomplishment, and maintaining your job through a good work ethic.

Also instead of the government having a stranglehold on UPS, a union does taking a lot of the normal business decisions out of the hand of a company.

Isn’t the government actually involved though? Aren’t the strictures of the NLRB the only thing that keeps UPS from simply walking away and saying (as others have) that nobody’s forcing you to work at UPS.

 

[bbsam]

Seems like a lot of knee jerk reaction to a term. Almost like the American people are programmed to hate that which they don’t even truly understand.

 

[BrownMonk]

Is union participation a form of socialism? If so, what does that mean for people forced to join the union to have a job at UPS? If you are a Trump supporter how do you reconcile your political leanings and socialist union affiliations? Asking for a friend. Hope nobody gets irritable or starts throwing out Tidepod bs, wacko conspiracy 911 Truther crap.

It is not Socialism unless it is a form of Government by definition.
Simply put....it is Contract Law and therefore considered part of a system of business. No different than making a deal on utilities, real estate, parts for manufacturing or any other component of business.

 

[sandwich]

I’ve heard that new drivers in some regions in the US are forced to join the union if they want a job. Is that incorrect?

If someone wants a job in management they are forced to leave the union. What's that called?

 

[Non sequitur]

I wouldnt say its socialism. Socialism to me is forced wealth distribution. We simply bargin/negotiate as a team to get, (supposedly) the very best deal.

That's why it's a little rich when your negotiating with someone they cry foul because you may have as much leverage as they do. It's like wanting to only do deals with inferior partners.

 

[BrownMonk]

Inferior partners has made capitalism what it is and the growth of the mega companies.

 

[Yaba Daba Do]

if your born poor or rich you will have very different opportunities.

True but most of the rich aren't people who inherited it from mommy or daddy. There are people that do but the overwhelming majority start from the ground up by trying to get loans, looking for investors, or starting very small and letting the business grow organically.

 

[OrionsBitch]

Seems like a lot of knee jerk reaction to a term. Almost like the American people are programmed to hate that which they don’t even truly understand.

Lol and you don't understand that socialism and communism never work because humans don't act in binary terms. People are greedy, liars, selfish, etc. No socialist country has ever worked. That's why the Nordic countries that your type likes to point to has just started to abolish their welfare state, healthcare, unemployment and all other socialist related policies. Why are they doing this? Because they realized if you don't give people incentive to work they won't. People are inherently lazy.

You can also tote your bull Marxism and claim he wanted workers to iwb the means of production and weapons etc. That's true during the process of becoming a complete communist society. But if you actually read his works you should know that at the end once a society reaches those "goals" those things are no longer owned by the people. Where do you think Marx would position himself in the social hierarchy? Do you think he's going to be shoveling cow like all the other citizens? Lmao keep dreaming....free markets, personal responsibility, private label d, right to privacy, freedom of religion, sexual orientation, and basically freedom to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't infringe in others rights is the key to success.

 

[OrionsBitch]

Everyone wants to say we have these massive companies that control everything. If you actually look at the facts that would be wrong. Since 1953 only 50 out of 500 fortune 500 companies are still on the list. Many companies everyone thought would "take over the world" are gone, bankrupt, or dissolved. General Electric just got removed a from the S&P500 a few more the ago.