V. O. T. E.

[brownmonster]

There is overtime involved with this job. Don't work part time for 37 years waiting for a full time opportunity and then whine about overtime.

 

[sortaisle]

Bigarrow, I agree of course that everyone should have 9.5 rights, but the scenario you throw in kinda seems like the drivers are laid off if they don't cover sick days and layoffs and it seems like those fellers would be happy to be working. The last guy that went driving has been laid off 18 out of the last 20 days in my center and we haven't had TCD's or even seasonal off the street drivers for at least 4 years now. I'm sure he'd take some 12's to make ends meet. Not knocking your opinion, just saying there is more protections than before. I'm sure this was a give and take scenario.

 

[realbrown1]

There is overtime involved with this job. Don't work part time for 37 years waiting for a full time opportunity and then whine about overtime.

Depends on how much overtime. Nobody likes to work 11 hours a day doing what we do. Eventually it gets old and you just want to go home. Besides, 11 hour days wears a body out.

 

[brownmonster]

Depends on how much overtime. Nobody likes to work 11 hours a day doing what we do. Eventually it gets old and you just want to go home. Besides, 11 hour days wears a body out.

I suppose 11 everyday would get old. Can't say I've worked that many 11 hour days over the years.

 

[stink219]

You can work long or you can work hard but you can't do both.

 

[UPSGUY72]

Our cover drivers do 6 differents days of garbage. Hell, most try to run out of hours so they don't have to come in on saturdays. The chance that a cover driver could stay on a route for a week is unheard of in my center.

Not in mine but than again I have done 5 different route is one week many of times...

 

[UPSGUY72]

There is overtime involved with this job. Don't work part time for 37 years waiting for a full time opportunity and then whine about overtime.

Bingo

I don't understand the people that complain about the wait to be a FT driver than get to be a FT driver and start to complain about the hrs, how much work work, etc. Everyone that becomes a FT driver these days knows exactly what they are getting into before they start.

 

['Lord Brown's bidding']

Unassigned drivers and TCDs cover for all vacations and absences. Just like anywhere else I guess. It is bad that ANYONE can't get protection. Seniority shouldn't dictate whether someone is deserving of the 9.5 list.



It doesn't matter how "pro active" they are if another driver can come in and bump them off the route they've been running for four days already. Now management will just say "We didn't reassign him. He was bumped by another driver. Totally not our fault. And he doesn't have four years in as a driver either by the way. Sorry." PLUS.....there are plenty of weeks when vacations aren't heavy that don't allow unassigned drivers to stay on a route entire week.The only people that weren't pro active in this case was those that were responsible for the lack luster language. No matter which side of the table they were sitting on.

Big, "bumped by another driver"="not allowed to finish the week on the route due to being re-assigned by the company", ergo they have 9.5 coverage. Doesn't matter if it happens on day five or even day two, as long as they were ASSIGNED to work that route on day 1, and to be clear, they must be assigned, rather than cover for a driver who is only going to be out a day or two. If a steward cannot get a payment in that scenario, isn't that the steward who is not up to snuff in that situation, rather than the language?

I have no doubt the company would try to get over on this; the language, however, does not leave anything to guess.

 

['Lord Brown's bidding']

On a related note, I have somewhat similar misgivings about the apprehension surrounding the language concerning dishonesty and it's relation to the word fraud ,and it's use in disciplining drivers. "Fraud" isn't just dishonesty, but includes doing so for 'financial or personal gain' while causing 'damages' for the defrauded party; not "projected damages", but actual damages. A driver sheeting up a NDA at his previous stop before the actual one and then driving to it is not defrauding the company in any way, nor will it result in "personal or financial gain" for him outside of his continuing to have a job, but then he hasn't gained anything, he keeps.

So "discharged for dishonesty" should never happen in this case, provided those arguing on behalf of the member understand the language being interpreted. The company could get him for "failure to follow methods and procedures", but that involves going through the process; after the warning letter, if a driver has not doggedly asked for and received re-training on the methods so as to avoid coming into conflict with them, he is going to get what is coming to him (or perhaps his union reps, or even a sympathetic senior driver, could intercede and suggest the idea in his behalf, after alerting him of the idea, though).

We should not assume what words mean, whether they be assigned or dishonesty, as they have pretty specific definitions; they are not necessarily open to interpretation, not without some meaningful precedent. The only downside to mincing words like this is if the case involves time away from the job for the aggrieved, however, Bubblehead has info to help with this concern, so that aggrieved members don't have to rush a judgement in cases like this.

 

[stink219]

We need more of you on here setting the record straight. Excellent work!!

 

['Lord Brown's bidding']

Finally, I have to disagree with the notion that everyone should have 9.5 protection. In all organizations, someone has to be available to take the undesirable jobs/chores; in a family, kids don't have a say on whether they take out the garbage or clean the dishes. As has been pointed out, new drivers aren't assured they'll work every day, or even most days; the flip side of that should be expected, that in the beginning they can expect to work some pretty long days; this should balance out the only working two or three days-per-week problem. Other union jobs have similar issues, especially in transportation, such as pilots and railroad engineers, as well as the postal service.

Truth be told, as has been explained to me on this board countless times everyone should expect to work very long days, unless it is your route that you've run for many years, or run-and-gun, although that has it's own problems and pitfalls that may out-weigh the benefits. Thankfully the union and company have found a way to give most drivers a way to balance that (I don't think railroaders or pilots have that kind of language, but maybe that is why they are paid more, for the sheer inconvenience of the job). More food for thought: medical students often must work half a week during their internships; I don't mean "three days", but 128 of a possible 256 hours in a given week, and on top of that, they are paid about as much as a rookie driver, maybe less! I was surprised to find out that FedEx Ground drivers are able to work 70 hour weeks (due to the method FedEx uses to comply with federal guidelines), and even their top guys don't make what a new-hire UPS FT driver makes! Are we really to feel sorry that a driver in the first two or three years of his UPS career has to work some "very long" days (because compared to these other positions, they really aren't working long hours at all)? Senior drivers like Big, IGOTTA, and others need some perspective here.....and then share it with others.

 

['Lord Brown's bidding']

One other thing: one might think with the sides I've been arguing here I sent in my vote some time ago. I have not, as I really ponder these things through.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Finally, I have to disagree with the notion that everyone should have 9.5 protection. In all organizations, someone has to be available to take the undesirable jobs/chores; in a family, kids don't have a say on whether they take out the garbage or clean the dishes.

REALLY!?!?! Are you insane? I mean its no surprise to see such a pompous comment from the very same guy that doesn't think he should have to take the vacation weeks that he had chosen when others could have chosen them instead. Do people with less seniority than you have the right to use the restroom in your center or is there a special room out back (a cardboard box with a bucket and a rag) that you personally have created for the bottom feeders to use? Man, you need to get over yourself. I hope we don't have too many people with your attitude on the negotiationing committee. But based on what I've read in the TA it would seem that's just wishful thinking.

 

[Anonymous 10]

One other thing: one might think with the sides I've been arguing here I sent in my vote some time ago. I have not, as I really ponder these things through.

Just as long as you send it in.

 

['Lord Brown's bidding']

REALLY!?!?! Are you insane? I mean its no surprise to see such a pompous comment from the very same guy that doesn't think he should have to take the vacation weeks that he had chosen when others could have chosen them instead. Do people with less seniority than you have the right to use the restroom in your center or is there a special room out back (a cardboard box with a bucket and a rag) that you personally have created for the bottom feeders to use? Man, you need to get over yourself. I hope we don't have too many people with your attitude on the negotiationing committee. But based on what I've read in the TA it would seem that's just wishful thinking.

Pompous, as in I think i am better, and the whole purpose of that statement was to show how important i was. No, I said that as my opinion, and then used the rest of my post to show why I came to that conclusion using facts, not my own ideas. For starters I was a newbie, and have already been through this, as have just about every other driver employed. What makes those coming in higher than any of us that they don't have to work through what we did, and especially considering it may present an extraordinary cost to the company and cause them to take away benefits for those who have already done the time.

You point out how i use my vacations. I had to earn that, working my way to this point (and all while some of the more senior drivers were probably working their vacations, denying me the chance to cover their route, but did it matter? No, just do some trash, but
learn the areas and make oneself invaluable, so they won't be so quick to cut you loose. That's what i did in that situation; the fact that anyone can do that (and some much, much better than I can or did) precludes me from having an over-inflated value of myself.

You like picking vacations in the summer? Glad your seniority affords you the opportunity to get the choice pickings, rather than a random lottery draw? I am willing to bet far more drivers with less than four years would prefer being to take a summer vacation with their families, rather than be able to get on the 9.5 list (I was in the minoirty; it's cheaper off-season, and the destinations ate less-ctowded). They learn to accept that while low on the vacation list they aren't going to get that week in summer, and they'll adapt to being low man on totem pole, and being sent to rescue/help another driver and stay out late.

In all walks of life the low-man doesn't have it the best (unless you are the youngest im your family, so I've heard). Why are up-and-comers any differen?

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Pompous, as in I think i am better, and the whole purpose of that statement was to show how important i was. No, I said that as my opinion, and then used the rest of my post to show why I came to that conclusion using facts, not my own ideas. For starters I was a newbie, and have already been through this, as have just about every other driver employed. What makes those coming in higher than any of us that they don't have to work through what we did, and especially considering it may present an extraordinary cost to the company and cause them to take away benefits for those who have already done the time.

You point out how i use my vacations. I had to earn that, working my way to this point (and all while some of the more senior drivers were probably working their vacations, denying me the chance to cover their route, but did it matter? No, just do some trash, but
learn the areas and make oneself invaluable, so they won't be so quick to cut you loose. That's what i did in that situation; the fact that anyone can do that (and some much, much better than I can or did) precludes me from having an over-inflated value of myself.

You like picking vacations in the summer? Glad your seniority affords you the opportunity to get the choice pickings, rather than a random lottery draw? I am willing to bet far more drivers with less than four years would prefer being to take a summer vacation with their families, rather than be able to get on the 9.5 list (I was in the minoirty; it's cheaper off-season, and the destinations ate less-ctowded). They learn to accept that while low on the vacation list they aren't going to get that week in summer, and they'll adapt to being low man on totem pole, and being sent to rescue/help another driver and stay out late.

In all walks of life the low-man doesn't have it the best (unless you are the youngest im your family, so I've heard). Why are up-and-comers any differen?

ZZZzzzzzzzz. What are you talking about? Am I worthy enough to even read your posts? Might not have enough seniority. Not that it matters. Cause you probably would violate seniority too because you are so special.

 

[dave_socal]

VOTED NO!

 

['Lord Brown's bidding']

BTW, kudos to my local for including language that allows us to use one of our weeks as i have begun to. They wemt after the need, rather than the members.

 

[TooTechie]

Must be even worse up north otherwise you'd understand that the language DOES NOT protect them. I mean how often do unassigned drivers get to stay on the same route all week? Rare!.

I am a regular full time driver with only 6 months of driving in which means I don't have enough seniority for my own route hence I'm a cover driver. That being said it is not uncommon for us to work a route for a whole week covering a vacation. Each route has a couple cover guys who are the best at it then a couple others who know it enough to get by just in case. If one of our main routes we cover isn't open they'll slide us where they need us but it's common for those of us who put in the effort to learn a route well to stay on it all week.

 

[uber]

I am a regular full time driver with only 6 months of driving in which means I don't have enough seniority for my own route hence I'm a cover driver. That being said it is not uncommon for us to work a route for a whole week covering a vacation. Each route has a couple cover guys who are the best at it then a couple others who know it enough to get by just in case. If one of our main routes we cover isn't open they'll slide us where they need us but it's common for those of us who put in the effort to learn a route well to stay on it all week.

30 day wonder

*cough* *cough*