Welcome To the Darkside Helen Thomas!
- Thread starter wkmac
- Start date
tieguy
Banned
Israel has been created. Israel can not be undone. There will be no peace in the middle east as long as Israel exists. Israel has been a loyal friend and ally and has not tried to kill our innocent citizens. Do we now cater to the murderous terrorists by turning our backs on one of our best friends and allies?
Terrorism is not a political concept nor is it a battle for justice. It is a means for those that are prone to murder and sucide to kill innocent people.
JimJimmyJames
Big Time Feeder Driver
Solutions have been offered that would allow Israel to exist and placate the majority of the Muslim world too. Ofcourse there would be the ultra fanatics, but then they would assuredly be in the minority.
Where you completely lose me is with the above quote. If you believe this then we are completely talking past each other and the ideas expressed in this thread are lost on you.
Which is fine.
The only people I have to convince in this world are my children so they never join the military and go off to fight in wars that have nothing to do with protecting the U.S.
The sad thing is, the government has even perverted the mission of the National Guard and Coast Guard, so they are not an option to serve one's country anymore either.
Maybe the Peace Corp?
island1fox
Well-Known Member
jjj,
You seem to think if we let Iran drop a nuclear bomb on Israel --there will be world peace ??? Even peace in the middle east ?? I do not believe the Iran vs Iraq war was over Israel!!! They have been fighting over there long before Israel.
Also you seem willing to let Israel go --who is next --Russia and Putin moves in on Canada to take their oil ----there is a sharp disagreement now between those two countries on this very issue----I am sure Klein would agee --Peace at any cost ----Oh !!!! I am sorry ---that was Chamberlain --that worked real well !!! Sure Klein the corrupt & inept UN will save you ???
People have products that others want to buy -believe me --the "handful" of fanatics that you claim would be left --after the US troops and companies left the middle east ----it would result in total destuction with everyone living in caves.
Sorry, I know the Libs hate to hear this ----there will always be "evil" in the world --there will always be good countries and bad countries ---and there will always be a "controlling" country. Many here say the US is bad and wrong because at this time in history --we are the "controlling" country.
But look at the "controllers" of the past --ROMAN Empire --Greek Empire--Spanish --French -the Brutal English --Nazi Germany --Soviet Union --all evil controlling "EMPIRES" To put the U.S. into that category as evil--not only rediculous but insane.
100 MILLION +++ will be sent to HAITI ?? yeah we sure are evil ---I guess just like the past "Empires" we will just keep the island ?????
You seem to think if we let Iran drop a nuclear bomb on Israel --there will be world peace ??? Even peace in the middle east ?? I do not believe the Iran vs Iraq war was over Israel!!! They have been fighting over there long before Israel.
Also you seem willing to let Israel go --who is next --Russia and Putin moves in on Canada to take their oil ----there is a sharp disagreement now between those two countries on this very issue----I am sure Klein would agee --Peace at any cost ----Oh !!!! I am sorry ---that was Chamberlain --that worked real well !!! Sure Klein the corrupt & inept UN will save you ???
People have products that others want to buy -believe me --the "handful" of fanatics that you claim would be left --after the US troops and companies left the middle east ----it would result in total destuction with everyone living in caves.
Sorry, I know the Libs hate to hear this ----there will always be "evil" in the world --there will always be good countries and bad countries ---and there will always be a "controlling" country. Many here say the US is bad and wrong because at this time in history --we are the "controlling" country.
But look at the "controllers" of the past --ROMAN Empire --Greek Empire--Spanish --French -the Brutal English --Nazi Germany --Soviet Union --all evil controlling "EMPIRES" To put the U.S. into that category as evil--not only rediculous but insane.
100 MILLION +++ will be sent to HAITI ?? yeah we sure are evil ---I guess just like the past "Empires" we will just keep the island ?????
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tieguy
Banned
Solutions have been offered that would allow Israel to exist and placate the majority of the Muslim world too. Ofcourse there would be the ultra fanatics, but then they would assuredly be in the minority.
That minority violates the agreements and violates the peace. Israel is not the a country that plays victim and turns the other cheek when that happens.
Where you completely lose me is with the above quote. If you believe this then we are completely talking past each other and the ideas expressed in this thread are lost on you.
I think I can have a different opinion without anything being lost on me.
Which is fine.
The only people I have to convince in this world are my children so they never join the military and go off to fight in wars that have nothing to do with protecting the U.S.
The sad thing is, the government has even perverted the mission of the National Guard and Coast Guard, so they are not an option to serve one's country anymore either.
Maybe the Peace Corp?
I served this country it was not beneath me to do so.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
I have seen the enemy and he is not "us".
There was not peace in the middle east before our troops were. Even if you allowed the destruction of Israel and the extermination of all the Jews there would still be not peace in my opinion.
Your solution for Israel is silly in my opinion and we should not force Israel to give up their land. They were attacked. The other side lost land. In the real world there is a penalty for stupidity and being a loser. One would think that the logical course of action would be for them to not start any more wars with Israel. Yet the opposite happens. I am not a fan of the UN but the world got together through the UN and created this nation state.
For the original topic that episode showed just how incompetent our government is. We have the leaders of our enemies telling us why they hate us and yes they have said that they hate us because of our freedoms. They have said they hate us because we do not follow the will of Allah. They have said they hate us even because we took some of their money. They have even said that they hate us because we refuse to convert to Islam. Yet an ignorant reporter has to ask why and even worse a spokesman for zero cannot answer.
Lue C Fur
Evil member
100 MILLION +++ will be sent to HAITI ?? yeah we sure are evil ---I guess just like the past "Empires" we will just keep the island ?????
I wonder what Iran, North Korea, Russia, and Obamas buddy Chavez has done for Haiti??? We are an evil country...maybe there is oil in Haiti and thats why we are helping them and have helped in the past...
diesel96
Well-Known Member
No one is talking about giving up the land or the destruction of Israel until you guys, as always deflect the issue, and try to make your arguement valid. Try to stay focused on their illegal expansion and the US Gov't support of it...
Welcome to the age of paranoia, keep chirping this Red-Neck agenda down people's throats. Blanketing yourselves with the stars and stripes. Accusing others who won't listen to your "sky is falling" rhetoric, in McCarthy-like fashion, casting outlandish proxys of their love of the terrorist and hatred toward America.
The inability to think, for if the shoe was on the other foot, would you not take out your enemy as well.
If China came on American soil and started killing our women and children, even if unintended, I'd guess you would just write it off as casualties of war....No, I didn't think so.
Every family member effected would grow to hate and want to kill the enemy. Unlike what Tieguy thinks, those caught up in the Middle East turmoil, are not natural born killers, and are not evil doers as Island thinks. Those radicals could just as easily be you or me if an invading army or entity killed our family. Like science, where there is cause, there is effect, and our effect in the decimation of the Middle East is breeding more radicals, than killing them. Buy the time we spend a Trillion dollars on meddling in the Middle East, we will be no safer than day one. If you really love your country, how can you just stand by and blindly support neo-con policies that are weakening this country's wealth, status, security and most of all, damaging/killing thousands of our young soldier's body and soul.
Welcome to the age of paranoia, keep chirping this Red-Neck agenda down people's throats. Blanketing yourselves with the stars and stripes. Accusing others who won't listen to your "sky is falling" rhetoric, in McCarthy-like fashion, casting outlandish proxys of their love of the terrorist and hatred toward America.
The inability to think, for if the shoe was on the other foot, would you not take out your enemy as well.
If China came on American soil and started killing our women and children, even if unintended, I'd guess you would just write it off as casualties of war....No, I didn't think so.
Every family member effected would grow to hate and want to kill the enemy. Unlike what Tieguy thinks, those caught up in the Middle East turmoil, are not natural born killers, and are not evil doers as Island thinks. Those radicals could just as easily be you or me if an invading army or entity killed our family. Like science, where there is cause, there is effect, and our effect in the decimation of the Middle East is breeding more radicals, than killing them. Buy the time we spend a Trillion dollars on meddling in the Middle East, we will be no safer than day one. If you really love your country, how can you just stand by and blindly support neo-con policies that are weakening this country's wealth, status, security and most of all, damaging/killing thousands of our young soldier's body and soul.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
I hope you know that is untrue but if you do not I think we may have just figured out how someone could vote for that idiot Obama.
Every plan that I have ever heard has called for Israel to at the very least give up some land. The most recent Iranian plan has called for the complete destruction of Israel. There may be a plan out there that does not call for Israel to give up land but I promise you that will gain no traction in the Muslim world.
How the heck do you come up with an illegal expansion? You must ignore the fact that they were invaded by three nations at once. I know in the liberal fantasy land actions have no consequences but in the real world they do. When nations start a war there is the possibility that they may lose and Allah will not protect them.
JimJimmyJames
Big Time Feeder Driver
Are You Ready to Face the Facts About Israel?
http://antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=13193
Paul Craig Roberts was assistant secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration.
http://antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=13193
Paul Craig Roberts was assistant secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Pretty comical article. Thanks.
My fav. part.
" Americans are a gullible and naive people."
Immediately as proof he says the following.
"They have been complicit for 60 years in crimes that in Arnold Toynbee's words "are comparable in quality" to the crimes of Nazi Germany."
Priceless but proof some people will go for anything.
JimJimmyJames
Big Time Feeder Driver
That is my same reaction to the people who believe the bleatings of the neo-cons.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
When Conservatives Loved the Palestinians
I guess some people have the mindset that the serpent's actions in the Garden of Eden was a justifiable intervention in that one "might" observe that the serpent was protecting life in that he perceived what he saw as "starvation" and in the name of providing "food" caused horrible and ultimately violent results in the long run by his act of intervention.
So often that action would be labeled or "spun" as a liberal action or even cause celeb and a point could be made that way but more and more it's becoming clear IMO that the serpent might have called himself "conservative" instead. Fact is he was neither and then again he was both yet he represents the worse in human nature found no matter where one goes. Would we call that true bi-partisanship?
Yet even the serpent's true motive are now understood to be not what at the time they would have seemed. As the years roll by and history reveals herself, this pattern seems to have a cyclical action does it not?
I find it so striking that many see gov't (and this IMO is correctly observed) is wrong in taxes, education, economic regulation, climate, and I'm sure others can add a whole host of other items but in the case of the military, foreign policy and warfare, the State seems to never be wrong. All it's actions are always seen in the name of protecting what is good and what is sacred. And you think this almost religious zealotry to an ideal would not be equally shared by others when it comes to their ways of life? Their long held folk ways and customs?
The very heavy handed and centralized approach to gov't that many here would oppose within the geographic 50 States of the Union, they seem to turn a blind eye to when the very same gov't uses those avenues on what George Carlin correctly observed as "brown people". Especially when advanced along a certain political line or by a certain faction. If it is so good abroad, then should we not adopt those same practices at home, champion them and proclaim taxation to pay for this approach as good and it's a good American who devotedly serves such ideals? Practice what you preach?
But those who dare question gov't in this area (foreign policy and military intervention) and no matter to what degree or consistency, a trait many of the founding fathers wanted the people to always maintain (checks and balance?), are as was said earlier, just seen as nothing more than the "blame America crowd."
Is it wrong to suggest blame when they see others decrying what is called "socialism" at home but yet these same people advance socialism abroad among a militarily held and captive peoples. As much as some of us object to Statist socialism being imposed on us in the name of, could it be that in the name of human nature, these folks don't want any part of imposed Statist socialism either, especially from a stranger? "But their way of life is so horrible", some would say!
Yet again, they seem IMO to put forth the arguement that the Serpent was intervening on behalf of goodness to supply knowledge and food to the straving, the serpent's POV if you will. Ironically the posterity of those the serpent tired to help with both knowledge and sustenance (under the cause for a better way of life and under actual false pretense I might add as again revealed by history) came to revile and hate the serpent and long for the day when his destruction would come!
Would to God that some people could finally and once for all remove the yoke from around their necks of the "White Man's Burden!"
jmo
As to Israel and the Arabs, it's long settled by both sides and historical fact that the current dispute is a millenia's old family arguement of birthright title to a promise that is purely based on mythology under the illusion of "revealed religion." We should not be in the middle of it to begin with and it's well settled IMO that either side's claim is based totally and completely on pure mythical fantasy. Marx had a point when he said "religion is the opiate of the masses" or "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" and the current conflict between Arab and Jew IMO is some proof of Marx's observations made in reference to Hegel's work. Funny how that same religion would have some idiot blame an earthquake on the victims having previously made a pact with the devil. And we call ourselves advanced?
Hmmmmm! I don't think so as I see no evidence to support such conclusions!
I guess some people have the mindset that the serpent's actions in the Garden of Eden was a justifiable intervention in that one "might" observe that the serpent was protecting life in that he perceived what he saw as "starvation" and in the name of providing "food" caused horrible and ultimately violent results in the long run by his act of intervention.
So often that action would be labeled or "spun" as a liberal action or even cause celeb and a point could be made that way but more and more it's becoming clear IMO that the serpent might have called himself "conservative" instead. Fact is he was neither and then again he was both yet he represents the worse in human nature found no matter where one goes. Would we call that true bi-partisanship?
Yet even the serpent's true motive are now understood to be not what at the time they would have seemed. As the years roll by and history reveals herself, this pattern seems to have a cyclical action does it not?
I find it so striking that many see gov't (and this IMO is correctly observed) is wrong in taxes, education, economic regulation, climate, and I'm sure others can add a whole host of other items but in the case of the military, foreign policy and warfare, the State seems to never be wrong. All it's actions are always seen in the name of protecting what is good and what is sacred. And you think this almost religious zealotry to an ideal would not be equally shared by others when it comes to their ways of life? Their long held folk ways and customs?
The very heavy handed and centralized approach to gov't that many here would oppose within the geographic 50 States of the Union, they seem to turn a blind eye to when the very same gov't uses those avenues on what George Carlin correctly observed as "brown people". Especially when advanced along a certain political line or by a certain faction. If it is so good abroad, then should we not adopt those same practices at home, champion them and proclaim taxation to pay for this approach as good and it's a good American who devotedly serves such ideals? Practice what you preach?
But those who dare question gov't in this area (foreign policy and military intervention) and no matter to what degree or consistency, a trait many of the founding fathers wanted the people to always maintain (checks and balance?), are as was said earlier, just seen as nothing more than the "blame America crowd."
Is it wrong to suggest blame when they see others decrying what is called "socialism" at home but yet these same people advance socialism abroad among a militarily held and captive peoples. As much as some of us object to Statist socialism being imposed on us in the name of, could it be that in the name of human nature, these folks don't want any part of imposed Statist socialism either, especially from a stranger? "But their way of life is so horrible", some would say!
Yet again, they seem IMO to put forth the arguement that the Serpent was intervening on behalf of goodness to supply knowledge and food to the straving, the serpent's POV if you will. Ironically the posterity of those the serpent tired to help with both knowledge and sustenance (under the cause for a better way of life and under actual false pretense I might add as again revealed by history) came to revile and hate the serpent and long for the day when his destruction would come!
Would to God that some people could finally and once for all remove the yoke from around their necks of the "White Man's Burden!"
jmo
As to Israel and the Arabs, it's long settled by both sides and historical fact that the current dispute is a millenia's old family arguement of birthright title to a promise that is purely based on mythology under the illusion of "revealed religion." We should not be in the middle of it to begin with and it's well settled IMO that either side's claim is based totally and completely on pure mythical fantasy. Marx had a point when he said "religion is the opiate of the masses" or "Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" and the current conflict between Arab and Jew IMO is some proof of Marx's observations made in reference to Hegel's work. Funny how that same religion would have some idiot blame an earthquake on the victims having previously made a pact with the devil. And we call ourselves advanced?
Hmmmmm! I don't think so as I see no evidence to support such conclusions!
tieguy
Banned
Right on my brother. Give me a fist pump and give that zionist oppressor chickens come home to roost apology for the terrorist. why don't you write Al Qhaida and see if you can adopt a few terrorists out of sympathy .
Rumor has it that 23 year old rich kid bankers son wanted to blow up americans cause he had no cocktail sauce for his shrimp. There you go another tale of woe somehow caused by the US..
tieguy
Banned
No facts in that article did you post the wrong link?
Why don't you and diesel hold a terrorist pity party. Maybe volunteer to be targets in their training camps.
You guys never did answer my question. will the terrorist now love us since Obama got the peace prize and promised to help Haiti?
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
The very heavy handed and centralized approach to gov't that many here would oppose within the geographic 50 States of the Union, they seem to turn a blind eye to when the very same gov't uses those avenues on what George Carlin correctly observed as "brown people". Especially when advanced along a certain political line or by a certain faction. If it is so good abroad, then should we not adopt those same practices at home, champion them and proclaim taxation to pay for this approach as good and it's a good American who devotedly serves such ideals? Practice what you preach?
But the problem here if far different than what you guys pretend. We cannot ignore the fact that the holocaust happened. It's simply not some myth. Right or wrong we have a UN and as a world body they created the nation of Israel. The day after Israel was an official nation they were invaded by a broad coalition of your "brown people". This is simply a fact not some neo con bleating. I for one am not some sort of sheep being led around helplessly. In this war started by your "brown people" they lost more territory. Seems to me it must have been the will of Allah. As a nation it is not our business to force Israel to give back that land. I have no problem not even a little with selling them some of our weapons systems for their defense. Ha I just replied to three poster plus the entire Muslim world with about ten sentences.
wkmac
Well-Known Member
But the problem here if far different than what you guys pretend. We cannot ignore the fact that the holocaust happened. It's simply not some myth. Right or wrong we have a UN and as a world body they created the nation of Israel. The day after Israel was an official nation they were invaded by a broad coalition of your "brown people". This is simply a fact not some neo con bleating. I for one am not some sort of sheep being led around helplessly. In this war started by your "brown people" they lost more territory. Seems to me it must have been the will of Allah. As a nation it is not our business to force Israel to give back that land. I have no problem not even a little with selling them some of our weapons systems for their defense. Ha I just replied to three poster plus the entire Muslim world with about ten sentences.
Where did you come up with the Holocaust comment? Only mythology I was referring too is revealed religion on the order of nearly 4k years old pertaining to the Abrahamic promise of Genesis 12. Issac/Ismael, promise of land from the Med to Eurphrates, from Syria to the Nile and back over to Northern Saudia Arabia. This greater Zion thingy is what really has the sons of Ismael so worked up to begin with.
As a nation (America), I don't think any of that is our business at all, we should not side, sell arms or otherwise support either side in such a way as to promote, encourage or otherwise any conflict between those 2. Let them settle this for themselves and if they choose the path of war and in the process destroy one another, then that's their business.
Including all the religious Bible/Koran BS, I see no value at all to our country in regards to this land nor does it make any difference which side controls the land. Both sides are driven by religious dogma so if they'd like to send each other to their eternal heavens, why should I be the one to get in the middle and try and stop them. Maybe if we step back and say, OK duke it out and let the best man win then after they both take a few body blows and draw some blood, they might realize their lunacy and figure out a settlement that doesn't require a damn thing from the rest of us and problem solved.
If the idiots are bound and determined to fight, let em' fight and knowing we're gonna go watch the NFL playoffs and eat hot wings, then we might see just how serious and bad ass they (both sides) really aren't!
And if they are and destroy one another, well at least our problems are solved although God might have some splaining to do since then his book ending wouldn't work out!
BTW: The Israeli's got the land via acts of terrorism against the British so you know the old saying, what goes around comes around!
Same way we're finding out ourselves!
diesel96
Well-Known Member
Tie, I'm not sure who has more wits about themselves, You or Helen Thomas
. At least Helen understands the concept of chickens coming home to roost. Ironically, in order to understand "The Chicken" theory, according to Tie, you must love the Terrorist and hate America. So that must mean your American hating Terrorist loving hero, Ronald Reagon learned the hard way about blowback. But at least he did the smart thing and withdrew from the desert....Again, with the shoe on the other foot, I guess you wouldn't have the will to fight back if the Chinese Army blasted your neighborhood and killed your family and friends...I hope you don't run your center like your politics. When an issue arises, instead of focusing on the root of the problem, you try to unsucessfully suppress it with constant agression. I bet you keep WD40, a hammer, and duct tape, in the bottom draw of your desk....
Labourers work at a construction site of new housing units in Givat Zeev Israeli settlement in the West Bank, north of Jerusalem, on May 25. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on May 24 that Israel will continue to expand settlements in the occupied West Bank despite calls by main ally the United States to stop.
av8torntn
Well-Known Member
A picture of a house being built on land they took during a war? OK I guess thanks for making my point. But didn't really need a picture as I know they took land after they were invaded. If i get time I'll find some pictures of the cease fire being broken by the idiots trying to invade Israel. I posted a couple of videos a while back on here when someone tried to claim a smoke round was being used illegally and like the true fool that I am I tried to argue with them but they had no clue what they were talking about. It was a little like trying to debate a tree.
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av8torntn
Well-Known Member
Where did you come up with the Holocaust comment?
At least one of the "plans" that have been talked about is from the Islamic state of Iran. They claim that since the holocaust did not exist there should not be a nation of Israel. I had made a reply about there are many plans on the table for peace and said or possibly just thought to myself that not one of them are viable. Someone else had said that nobody was asking Israel to give up land. Seems a little uninformed to me but I do not have lot's of knowledge on the Middle East situation. Then someone said something about neo cons not knowing the facts seemed directed at me and something about the sheep following the heard but again I'm not really following closely. So the fact is there was a holocaust.
For entertainment one of the "plans" offered is to move Israel to Germany.
I dunno but sounds an awful lot like givin up land as well. I kinda assume that most people understand the reason we took sides with Israel was because of the cold war and a sort of reaction to the reds taking sides with other nations in the region. Or maybe not. I dunno its late. Seems from my point of view worked out pretty well for Israel. Not so good for the other guys.
