Welcome To the Darkside Helen Thomas!

[av8torntn]

As a nation (America), I don't think any of that is our business at all, we should not side, sell arms or otherwise support either side in such a way as to promote, encourage or otherwise any conflict between those 2. Let them settle this for themselves and if they choose the path of war and in the process destroy one another, then that's their business.

In principal I would agree. In the case of Israel I think it works out better when we sell them arms. Just an opinion and if we could go back in time I think some different decisions would have been made.

One thing for certain I say let em settle it. I feel over the years Israel has been far to kind.

 

[Jones]

Selling them weapons is one thing, but we are currently 3 years into a 10 year deal in which we have agreed to give them 3 billion a year in military aid, for a total of 30 billion by 2017. That's an awfully big handout.

 

[tieguy]

Tie, I'm not sure who has more wits about themselves, You or Helen Thomas . At least Helen understands the concept of chickens coming home to roost. Ironically, in order to understand "The Chicken" theory, according to Tie, you must love the Terrorist and hate America. So that must mean your American hating Terrorist loving hero, Ronald Reagon learned the hard way about blowback. But at least he did the smart thing and withdrew from the desert....

Again, with the shoe on the other foot, I guess you wouldn't have the will to fight back if the Chinese Army blasted your neighborhood and killed your family and friends...I hope you don't run your center like your politics. When an issue arises, instead of focusing on the root of the problem, you try to unsucessfully suppress it with constant agression. I bet you keep WD40, a hammer, and duct tape, in the bottom draw of your desk....



Ok Av8, so if words don't work, how bout pictures

Diesle I think your efforts to kiss the unwashed rear ends of the terrorists at the expense of what is supposedly your country is commendable. But don't waste your time and efforts on me. Go find the friends and family of the 9/11 victims and tell them that the deaths of their mothers , fathers brothers and sisters is their own damn fault because the chickens simply came home to roost.

 

[tieguy]

Selling them weapons is one thing, but we are currently 3 years into a 10 year deal in which we have agreed to give them 3 billion a year in military aid, for a total of 30 billion by 2017. That's an awfully big handout.

The new tax on the banks will help pay for that. I'm sure the banks will be good guys and eat that cost rather then passing it on to the consumers.

 

[tieguy]

Tie, I'm not sure who has more wits about themselves, You or Helen Thomas . At least Helen understands the concept of chickens coming home to roost.

I would think the senile old bird would since she too is a terrorist suck up.

Ironically, in order to understand "The Chicken" theory, according to Tie, you must love the Terrorist and hate America. So that must mean your American hating Terrorist loving hero, Ronald Reagon learned the hard way about blowback. But at least he did the smart thing and withdrew from the desert....

I'm just trying to understand this theory since you have chosen to devote yourself to apologizing for the terrorists murderous affections. Now the chickens come home to roost means we ignore Bushs war on aids as well as his genorosity in helping moslems after the tsunami strike. The chickens come home to roost therefore appears to be a very selective application of justice.

Again, with the shoe on the other foot, I guess you wouldn't have the will to fight back if the Chinese Army blasted your neighborhood and killed your family and friends...

I'm fine with the revenge logic. The problem with your apology is that the folks who attacked us were not hurt by the United States. There was no revenge to get.

I hope you don't run your center like your politics. When an issue arises, instead of focusing on the root of the problem, you try to unsucessfully suppress it with constant agression. I bet you keep WD40, a hammer, and duct tape, in the bottom draw of your desk....

And I hope you don't spend your day making excuses for every murderer in miami. Dude your position apologizing for murder is pretty weak.

 

[wkmac]

At least one of the "plans" that have been talked about is from the Islamic state of Iran. They claim that since the holocaust did not exist there should not be a nation of Israel. I had made a reply about there are many plans on the table for peace and said or possibly just thought to myself that not one of them are viable. Someone else had said that nobody was asking Israel to give up land. Seems a little uninformed to me but I do not have lot's of knowledge on the Middle East situation. Then someone said something about neo cons not knowing the facts seemed directed at me and something about the sheep following the heard but again I'm not really following closely. So the fact is there was a holocaust.

OK I understand now. You quoted my post but your response seemed more directed at items and issues that I never mentioned (I even double checked my posts in this thread for Holocausts and Neo-Cons and never found any) but re-reading other posts, I found where and who you were directing too. OK, I got ya. BTW: Although I wouldn't call you a Neo-Con, you are a bit of a Heinz 57 IMO. Foreign Policy wise you do fit pretty well in the Straussian/New (Neo) Conservative mold but on the domestic front you show a little of the paleo-conservative ideal and a type of minarchist POV. Although I think you feel satisfied, you do present a conundrum in yourself in that you berate and bemoan the aggression state in the area of personal economic liberty and the aggression state in the area of wealth transfer for what you perceive as the working/productive class to the non productive class and those are admirable ideals but yet you turn a blind eye when that same aggression state uses force upon others to transfer their wealth into areas "You" believe are important. If they are important and you think they are worthy of support, then you and others like you of like mind should as consumers of such ideals use your labor and economic support in those pursuits "AS" private/non state entity functions. And let me add that on the flipside those that support otherwise, opposite, etc. should, just like yourself, devote their labor, time and resources to pursue their ideals and not use the aggression State to extract from you what you would not do on your own in a free capacity.

You are free in your capacity as a private, free individual to support in any and all manner as you see fit, as long as it doesn't involve force or fraud on another (ie you can't force or fraud me or others into supporting your actions or beliefs in material, time, property or othermeans that violate self ownership), to endeavor towards such ends as you so desire and likewise I and all others are free to pursue in same fashion those ideals we/they find important and worthwhile and we likewise can't force or fraud you either. Would that be a legit compromise?

For entertainment one of the "plans" offered is to move Israel to Germany. I dunno but sounds an awful lot like givin up land as well.

I kinda assume that most people understand the reason we took sides with Israel was because of the cold war and a sort of reaction to the reds taking sides with other nations in the region. Or maybe not. I dunno its late. Seems from my point of view worked out pretty well for Israel. Not so good for the other guys.

One solution that Germany came up with very early on during Hitler was re-settlement of jews in Madagascar. Why Madagascar and what happened to that idea I don't know. Could be the jews and other undesirables at the time proved more worthwhile as slave labor but then sadly it all went from bad to worse as we all know. You are correct that Israel became a key linchpin ally in the cold war but in truth that relationship was always dicey at best. With numerous acts of spying by Israel on the US, the secret use of Pakistan's ISI in transferring of nuclear related material via Turkey to Israel and the relationship Israel and Pakistan have had in relation to weapons transfer. From Charlie Wilson's exploits (Charlie Wilson's War fame) to what is slowly uncovering in the growing scandal being exposed by Sibel Edmonds and now other whistle blowers starting to come forward, one has to seriously ask just to what extent and value is our so-called relationship with Israel? Even the British learned the lesson of treachery with the King David Hotel after all those years and being the nation up front for the infant and growing Zionist movement from those early, heady days of the late 1800's and the leadership of Theodor Herzl. The british even broke a major promise to the Arabs (Sykes-Picot Agreement) at the insistence of Lord Balfour who'd promised a committment to the idea of Zionism instead. All the fruits of death and destruction to this day lay in the fact that a promise of independence to the Arabs tribes was broken to fulfill an ideal not hatched until a small group of jews created the Zionist ideal in the late 1800's.

You speak of some being a little uninformed and you may have a point but then one could also say that at the very least, others are just flat out ignoring historical facts of 100 years ago and then as a result, totally misreading and misundertanding the events of today as having all been born in some vaccum and then labeled as "towel head" ignorance along with the self aggrandizing illusion that they "hate us for our freedom." Do you think they are as stupid as we are and buying the "Land of the Free" BS? Tell me, what economic freedom do we really have? What freedom from gov't central planning in our lives is so great that they or anyone else would see that as "freedom"? If we're gonna talk about "un-informed", shall we gather at the collective American mirror and gaze at our own images! Mirror, Mirror on the wall....

If they hate us for anything, I think it's for being idiots and big chumps and I for one think we are guilty as hell on that account!


You mentioned Iran in your post early on and no arguement Iran has idiots for leaders not that we can brag these days either. (see idiots and chumps comment again!) But what's so sad about our meddling in Iranian affairs which again created the blowback to today's problems is that for several millenia, the Iranian (Persian) and jewish peoples held a special relationship because it was the Persian King Cyrus who freed the jews from Babylon and helped to even finance their return to Jerusalem. An act of kindness held in very high esteem by millenia old Middle Eastern jewish communities unlike their European kin.

This created a strong bond only broken in the last half of the 20th century by meddling American and European interests backed by State force who killed such longstanding friendship. We also killed a longstanding Persian love of America who admired us for our acts in the 1700's when we broke the back of European imperialism and gained our own independence only to now become the new imperialist ourselves. And I guess it helps that the mainstream media (not that we don't just ignore the truth anyway) refuses to acknowledge the jewish member of the Iranian Parliment and what he has to say of jewish life living inside Iran under the rule of those vile, jew hating, jew killing Iranians. If I had to guess of what is making life worse for him in Iran, him just being jewish(?) or our actions (geo-political) outside of and directed towards Iran(?), my money is on the latter.

Jones IMO made an excellent point when he stated:

Selling them weapons is one thing, but we are currently 3 years into a 10 year deal in which we have agreed to give them 3 billion a year in military aid, for a total of 30 billion by 2017. That's an awfully big handout.

and how is this handout in aid to Israel not socialism when a handout to someone on the street living in a cardboard box is not willing to bear all their self inflicted burden is? Why should property and my labor be extracted from me by force (a state monopoly) to give to either one of these situations? Extraction of wealth and property by force even under the guise of alleged State santioned national defense is still socialism in the classic textbook definition of the word. Seems you and others have a lot more in common than you want to admit!

There's that aweful conundrum again!

And just for the record, that chosen people stuff? Sorry, they wrote the book to begin with which would be akin to me making the claim that I'm the first born son of Bill Gates and the heir to the family fortune. Proof? It's all here in this book which I'm claiming as the inerrant word of Bill Gates!

See how easy that is and all I have to do is get everyone else to buy my claim as fact!

 

[av8torntn]

Selling them weapons is one thing, but we are currently 3 years into a 10 year deal in which we have agreed to give them 3 billion a year in military aid, for a total of 30 billion by 2017. That's an awfully big handout.

Not sure what the point is here being that it is coming from you. Yes that's an awful large handout and in my fantasy world would be unacceptable. My guess is the big government guys on here think that is to small an amount? We have also sold billions of dollars worth of weapons systems to them.

 

[av8torntn]

BTW: Although I wouldn't call you a Neo-Con, you are a bit of a Heinz 57 IMO. Foreign Policy wise you do fit pretty well in the Straussian/New (Neo) Conservative mold but on the domestic front you show a little of the paleo-conservative ideal and a type of minarchist POV. Although I think you feel satisfied, you do present a conundrum in yourself in that you berate and bemoan the aggression state in the area of personal economic liberty and the aggression state in the area of wealth transfer for what you perceive as the working/productive class to the non productive class and those are admirable ideals but yet you turn a blind eye when that same aggression state uses force upon others to transfer their wealth into areas "You" believe are important. !

Actually my point of view is far different. Nobody really cares but I'm a give me liberty kinda guy. While I think everyone can agree that things like social security and Medicare are stupid that is not the main reason I would like to see them gone. The primary reason is that they take away our freedoms. I think we should be allowed to do what we want with our money. If I want to open a charity hospital or save for my own retirement I should be allowed and not penalized. So if it is wrong for the government to tell me how much I can earn after a certain age or what doctors I must use(through Medicare and SSI) it is equally as wrong for them to tell me how much money I must give to Haiti through taxes. In my fantasy world we would not have a central government giving foreign aid to Israel, Pakistan, Somalia, Bosnia, and the list goes on and on. We can ignore the fact that it would be far more efficient for a charity to help in a disaster foreign or domestic than the government. Wait no we cannot just ignore that fact. Take something as simple as a hospital. Living in the Memphis area we have a children's hospital called St. Jude. They are often mentioned as being among the worlds leading children's hospitals. They also happen to be a very well funded charity. They also never turn away any child because they cannot pay. Compare that to a government hospital in town called the Med. They are constantly underfunded by the government to the point where they may even have to close some services. Now to expand that to foreign policy I think we can agree just from all of our own personal observations that the American people are extremely generous with time and money. I remember reading years ago how much money was raised in the states for the IRA. The point being there was not a need for our government to intervene. US citizens have joined the Israeli military. They would likely have no trouble raising money to buy weapons. I see no need for our government to intervene. As I posted earlier I feel the reason we give aid to Israel has more to do with being a leftover relic of the cold war than anything else.


In summary I do feel that the domestic government social programs are nothing much more than a liberty grab and the same applies to foreign aid. National defense is a completely different issue for another day.

 

[diesel96]

Tie, I'm not sure who has more wits about themselves, You or Helen Thomas . At least Helen understands the concept of chickens coming home to roost. Ironically, in order to understand "The Chicken" theory, according to Tie, you must love the Terrorist and hate America. So that must mean your American hating Terrorist loving hero, Ronald Reagon learned the hard way about blowback. But at least he did the smart thing and withdrew from the desert....

Again, with the shoe on the other foot, I guess you wouldn't have the will to fight back if the Chinese Army blasted your neighborhood and killed your family and friends...I hope you don't run your center like your politics. When an issue arises, instead of focusing on the root of the problem, you try to unsucessfully suppress it with constant agression. I bet you keep WD40, a hammer, and duct tape, in the bottom draw of your desk....



Ok Av8, so if words don't work, how bout pictures


Diesle I think your efforts to kiss the unwashed rear ends of the terrorists at the expense of what is supposedly your country is commendable. But don't waste your time and efforts on me. Go find the friends and family of the 9/11 victims and tell them that the deaths of their mothers , fathers brothers and sisters is their own damn fault because the chickens simply came home to roost.

Tie...What's up with conservatives ? First AV8 brings up the Holocaust out of the blue, and now you with 9/11. You guys are all over the place. Now just for bringing up 9/11 victims, why don't you go tell the first responders of 9/11 (and their familiy members), who are chronically dying off one by one, by ground zero contamination , since 2003, why funding dumb wars you supported, took more precedence than taking care of our heros....not to mention bad mouthing Healthcare reform which can help these heros. I would say those who would rather see America's resources aiding their own citizens, hero's and first responders, (and victims like in Haiti), as much more patriotic than those of you who pretend to be for small gov't and hugh MIC cheerleaders. The days of wrapping yourselves up with Old Glory was yesterday's news. You need a new schtick.....

Your obvisouly not well versed in "an eye for an eye" theory. And just because someone has to point out to you, this simplistic, basic, natural human reaction of exacting revenge and justice, one would expect a more challenging response than kissing unsanitized gluteus maximus. But there is professional help available when dealing with reality and how to handle it... Good luck sir !

 

[tieguy]

Tie...What's up with conservatives ? First AV8 brings up the Holocaust out of the blue, and now you with 9/11. You guys are all over the place. Now just for bringing up 9/11 victims, why don't you go tell the first responders of 9/11 (and their familiy members), who are chronically dying off one by one, by ground zero contamination , since 2003, why funding dumb wars you supported, took more precedence than taking care of our heros....not to mention bad mouthing Healthcare reform which can help these heros. I would say those who would rather see America's resources aiding their own citizens, hero's and first responders, (and victims like in Haiti), as much more patriotic than those of you who pretend to be for small gov't and hugh MIC cheerleaders. The days of wrapping yourselves up with Old Glory was yesterday's news. You need a new schtick.....

Your obvisouly not well versed in "an eye for an eye" theory. And just because someone has to point out to you, this simplistic, basic, natural human reaction of exacting revenge and justice, one would expect a more challenging response than kissing unsanitized gluteus maximus. But there is professional help available when dealing with reality and how to handle it... Good luck sir !

speaking of someone who is all over the place trying to tie health care into your loyal defense of terrorism is really quite a stretch.

Would you care to comment on why bushs agressive actions against aids, our tsunami relief efforts, Obamas noble peace prize and our relief efforts in haiti are not eliminating the terrorist threat?

care to comment on what revenge a 23 year old rich kid bankers son sought under your defense of terrorism?

 

[wkmac]

Actually my point of view is far different. Nobody really cares but I'm a give me liberty kinda guy. While I think everyone can agree that things like social security and Medicare are stupid that is not the main reason I would like to see them gone. The primary reason is that they take away our freedoms. I think we should be allowed to do what we want with our money. If I want to open a charity hospital or save for my own retirement I should be allowed and not penalized. So if it is wrong for the government to tell me how much I can earn after a certain age or what doctors I must use(through Medicare and SSI) it is equally as wrong for them to tell me how much money I must give to Haiti through taxes. In my fantasy world we would not have a central government giving foreign aid to Israel, Pakistan, Somalia, Bosnia, and the list goes on and on. We can ignore the fact that it would be far more efficient for a charity to help in a disaster foreign or domestic than the government. Wait no we cannot just ignore that fact. Take something as simple as a hospital. Living in the Memphis area we have a children's hospital called St. Jude. They are often mentioned as being among the worlds leading children's hospitals. They also happen to be a very well funded charity. They also never turn away any child because they cannot pay. Compare that to a government hospital in town called the Med. They are constantly underfunded by the government to the point where they may even have to close some services. Now to expand that to foreign policy I think we can agree just from all of our own personal observations that the American people are extremely generous with time and money. I remember reading years ago how much money was raised in the states for the IRA. The point being there was not a need for our government to intervene. US citizens have joined the Israeli military. They would likely have no trouble raising money to buy weapons. I see no need for our government to intervene. As I posted earlier I feel the reason we give aid to Israel has more to do with being a leftover relic of the cold war than anything else.


In summary I do feel that the domestic government social programs are nothing much more than a liberty grab and the same applies to foreign aid. National defense is a completely different issue for another day.

I highlighted some points above because I thought they were excellent and completely agree. St. Jude? Great point and great hospital but we have a similar one here in Atlanta in Scottish Rite Children's Hospital who also do a great job too.

You raised a number of good points and you've toe dipped into an area IMO worth further and deeper discussion and that is gov't like any other business venture is actually a business in and of itself and uses monopoly and it's monopoly of force to command, control and protect the market it has created for itself. IMO, once you see America as a corporation in and of itself, a purely business interest if you will, you start to realize there is nothing, "NOT NOTHING" that gov't does that can't also be done on a private level in a free, competing marketplace. And yes this applies to police and defense as well (in reference to the last sentence in your post and it might be good discussion to have sometime).

Radical? Yep but I've never been one to fear standing up and shaking a fist at heaven and declaring there is no god just to get people to begin to have a serious conversation that they truly need to have.

jmo

 

[av8torntn]

First AV8 brings up the Holocaust out of the blue, . I would say those who would rather see America's resources aiding their own citizens, hero's and first responders, (and victims like in Haiti), as much more patriotic than those of you who pretend to be for small gov't and hugh MIC cheerleaders.

First you cannot just bring the holocaust up out of the blue. It's the reason there is an Israel. Second there is no greater victim than the Jewish people. When you wanna take money from me and send it to every victim in the world except Israel just kinda makes no sense. It would make much more sense to cut everyone off including those that were to stupid to save for their own retirement and health care.

 

[wkmac]

it is equally as wrong for them to tell me how much money I must give to Haiti through taxes.

Speaking of Haiti, couple of pieces that might be some food for thought!

Should the US Military Go to Haiti

The Militarization of Emergency Aid to Haiti

 

[wkmac]

Helen Thomas clears up hat she was trying to say.

Thanks for the article Jones!

Interestingly enough, Ray McGovern was interviewed last Thursday for Antiwar Radio by Scott Horton if anyone is interested.

(Jones)
On a bit different note and in case you didn't see it, have you read Glenn Greenwald's piece from Salon this past Friday?

Seems no matter who we elect these days, nothing will stop the State from closing the lid of the casket on what was once a free America. Glenn may be correct that Sunstein's ideas have not taken shape but what happens if the people slip up and are occupied in thought and focus elsewhere and nobody is looking or minding the store?

 

[wkmac]

Ron Smith of the Baltimore Sun

Why They Hate Us? It's Not a Secret

 

[av8torntn]

Ron Smith of the Baltimore Sun

Why They Hate Us? It's Not a Secret

I guess the big problem with that is someone should let him know we were not in Afghanistan and Iraq when they attacked NY. Just a thought.

 

[tieguy]

I guess the big problem with that is someone should let him know we were not in Afghanistan and Iraq when they attacked NY. Just a thought.

the technical details can sometimes get in the way of a good blame theory.

For some reason Osama did not have any moral issues with the US while accepting their help against the ruskies. It was only when the russians left and Osama needed a new devil to fight that he suddenly discovered the United States. this despite the fact we were supporting Israel during the time we were also supporting Osama.

The nice thing about smith working for the sun is the liberal litter box liner does not hold him accountable for what he writes.

 

[av8torntn]

Just released brand new TSA training video.

 

[JimJimmyJames]

Interesting point she brings up concerning the "defense spending bubble".

The bubble is going to pop eventually, if only because we just don't have the money to keep the charade going.

Or do we?

Can we possibly keep up the level of borrowing that we currently are doing? I don't think so.

The money is going to come from an increasingly large amount of cuts from domestic spending.

And neither the Democrats nor the Republicans have the strength or the will to confront the military-security industrial complex and say enough is enough. But why would they? Most of them are bought and paid for by them.

I just wonder how much the American people will be willing to sacrifice. As programs like Medicare and Social Security are gutted, and important domestic needs such as transportation and education are continually under funded, will people finally speak up and demand an end to the empire that is bankrupting us?

Maybe.

Or, enough episodes of terrorism will conveniently pop up just often enough to keep everyone scared and willing to sacrifice freedom and prosperity in order to be "safe".

I just wish I could choose how my tax dollars are spent, kind of like how you can choose what organization your United Way donation is going to.

 

[tieguy]

Interesting point she brings up concerning the "defense spending bubble".

The bubble is going to pop eventually, if only because we just don't have the money to keep the charade going.

Or do we?

Can we possibly keep up the level of borrowing that we currently are doing? I don't think so.

The money is going to come from an increasingly large amount of cuts from domestic spending.

And neither the Democrats nor the Republicans have the strength or the will to confront the military-security industrial complex and say enough is enough. But why would they? Most of them are bought and paid for by them.

I just wonder how much the American people will be willing to sacrifice. As programs like Medicare and Social Security are gutted, and important domestic needs such as transportation and education are continually under funded, will people finally speak up and demand an end to the empire that is bankrupting us?

Maybe.

Or, enough episodes of terrorism will conveniently pop up just often enough to keep everyone scared and willing to sacrifice freedom and prosperity in order to be "safe".

I just wish I could choose how my tax dollars are spent, kind of like how you can choose what organization your United Way donation is going to.

You make some good points. There may be another angle to what you hit on. A significant reduction in military spending could also result in a significant correction to our economy. Stop buying the war toys and you start a recession.