Why is the Left...

newfie

newfie

Well-Known Member
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refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
vantexan said:
No, you just want to paint Republicans as monolithic, only in it for the money. Otherwise they'd reject Trump if they had any principles. As if Democrats don't care about money, are all altruistic Boy Scouts. Highly principled. Baloney. They all want the money, it's just a matter of approach. Democrats tell their constituents how much they care, while nothing ever really gets done that truly improves their lives. But the money keeps flowing in the form of entitlements, and their dependents um constituents keep the votes coming in return. And various enablers help themselves to a little off the top. The Republicans make their money making things as smooth as possible for their constituents in the business world. And they get generous support for doing so. The Dems whine and nag that money would be better spent on their constituents and the Republicans whine and nag that money should be kept in the hands of those who earned it, even though much of what is earned is concentrated into relatively few hands. Same as it ever was, same as it ever was. But true believers like you seem to think that your side is pure and holy while the other side is a criminal enterprise. So tell me, if the Democrats are pure as the driven snow then why did they support a candidate who became mega rich as Secretary of State and covered her tracks with the aid of the previous administration? You seem concerned about Trump's tax returns(which legally he does not have to release, that's a tradition not a law), but aren't you equally concerned that she acid washed her server to prevent the reading of 33,000 emails? It was admitted by Comey already that she mishandled classified emails, some at the highest classification possible, out of the ones she did release. Where is the prosecution? There are people in prison right now who's infraction was miniscule compared to the scope of her's. Yet total silence from the Democrats and they voted in even bigger numbers for her, just not enough where it mattered. So when anyone charges the Republicans are corrupt and turns a blind eye to Democrat corruption how are they to be taken seriously? So why do I support Republicans? Because building dependency in exchange for votes does not insure a strong country. I really don't care that some get super rich building a business as long as they are providing solid jobs and aren't killing people doing it. But the whole keep the money flowing to the poor and to the government unions in exchange for them keeping me in office business just increases the debt without building a middle class. And the debt is close to collapsing the whole thing. Then where will we be? Can hardly wait for the derailment and red X's.
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First off, I am responding to your topic. I said nothing about money. I said nothing about how great Democrats are. Hillary Clinton, I said nothing about my party affiliation.

You keep missing the point that I am making, you posted about the left blah, blah, blah, but my point is the problem that conservative voters have with the left isn't about policy. It is about who, conservatives voters think the left helps the wrongs kinds of Americans. That's why they hate Democrats not over policy, not over corruption, not over emails, none of that stuff matters to conservatives/republicans.

So they support republicans because republicans advance a more exclusionary vision of America government functions which only help the rich. These voters hope that republicans will hurt those Americans who they don't want the government to help because they perceive those Americans to be a threat to their America. This is an ugly ugly belief system which forms the core of the conservative party.

If conservatives voters perceive so called left policies to help the right kinds of Americans, they don't care about left or right, they only care about who. So the whole oh the left this and the left that dislike isn't based on policy but based on the genuine belief that republican elected officials hate the same Americans that they hate.

My other point about elected republicans is that the only thing they believe, the core of their ideology is plutocratic economic policies, so I am not saying republicans are following the money. I am saying they an ideological belief system that wants to construct tax policy and regulations to favor the rich and powerful, and that their support of Trump proves how they don't care about the vast majority of the other stuff they claim to care about and it shows that conservatism as a set of policy beliefs doesn't have much support amongst voters.
 
R

refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
vantexan said:
No, you just want to paint Republicans as monolithic, only in it for the money. Otherwise they'd reject Trump if they had any principles. As if Democrats don't care about money, are all altruistic Boy Scouts. Highly principled. Baloney. They all want the money, it's just a matter of approach. Democrats tell their constituents how much they care, while nothing ever really gets done that truly improves their lives. But the money keeps flowing in the form of entitlements, and their dependents um constituents keep the votes coming in return. And various enablers help themselves to a little off the top. The Republicans make their money making things as smooth as possible for their constituents in the business world. And they get generous support for doing so. The Dems whine and nag that money would be better spent on their constituents and the Republicans whine and nag that money should be kept in the hands of those who earned it, even though much of what is earned is concentrated into relatively few hands. Same as it ever was, same as it ever was. But true believers like you seem to think that your side is pure and holy while the other side is a criminal enterprise. So tell me, if the Democrats are pure as the driven snow then why did they support a candidate who became mega rich as Secretary of State and covered her tracks with the aid of the previous administration? You seem concerned about Trump's tax returns(which legally he does not have to release, that's a tradition not a law), but aren't you equally concerned that she acid washed her server to prevent the reading of 33,000 emails? It was admitted by Comey already that she mishandled classified emails, some at the highest classification possible, out of the ones she did release. Where is the prosecution? There are people in prison right now who's infraction was miniscule compared to the scope of her's. Yet total silence from the Democrats and they voted in even bigger numbers for her, just not enough where it mattered. So when anyone charges the Republicans are corrupt and turns a blind eye to Democrat corruption how are they to be taken seriously? So why do I support Republicans? Because building dependency in exchange for votes does not insure a strong country. I really don't care that some get super rich building a business as long as they are providing solid jobs and aren't killing people doing it. But the whole keep the money flowing to the poor and to the government unions in exchange for them keeping me in office business just increases the debt without building a middle class. And the debt is close to collapsing the whole thing. Then where will we be? Can hardly wait for the derailment and red X's.
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First off, the richest Americans and largest corporations created a whole industry to beg the government to do stuff for them and the begging of the government is constant. We call this industry lobbying. Heck the rich and powerful corporations don't even do their own begging to the government. They hire professional beggars call lobbyists.

The rich and powerful are so great at extracting money from the government, that they can afford to make their professional beggars rich.

Now none of this stuff is hidden and yet the kinds of people who get upset with the "poor" getting help from their own government are silent or accepting of the rich creating a whole industry design to beg the government to help them.

So its wrong for the government to help the poor in exchange for votes, but its ok for the government to help the richest Americans in exchange for money and votes?
 
Sportello

Sportello

Well-Known Member
refineryworker05 said:
First off, the richest Americans and largest corporations created a whole industry to beg the government to do stuff for them and the begging of the government is constant. We call this industry lobbying. Heck the rich and powerful corporations don't even do their own begging to the government. They hire professional beggars call lobbyists.

The rich and powerful are so great at extracting money from the government, that they can afford to make their professional beggars rich.

Now none of this stuff is hidden and yet the kinds of people who get upset with the "poor" getting help from their own government are silent or accepting of the rich creating a whole industry design to beg the government to help them.

So its wrong for the government to help the poor in exchange for votes, but its ok for the government to help the richest Americans in exchange for money and votes?
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The lobbyists of the wealthy write the laws. The wealthy are our law makers.

Vote them out or ride their coat tails.

Unfortunately, government service has become the favorite stomping ground of grifters, and they don't consider it a service, so much as a chance to grift.
 
R

refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
vantexan said:
No, you just want to paint Republicans as monolithic, only in it for the money. Otherwise they'd reject Trump if they had any principles. As if Democrats don't care about money, are all altruistic Boy Scouts. Highly principled. Baloney. They all want the money, it's just a matter of approach. Democrats tell their constituents how much they care, while nothing ever really gets done that truly improves their lives. But the money keeps flowing in the form of entitlements, and their dependents um constituents keep the votes coming in return. And various enablers help themselves to a little off the top. The Republicans make their money making things as smooth as possible for their constituents in the business world. And they get generous support for doing so. The Dems whine and nag that money would be better spent on their constituents and the Republicans whine and nag that money should be kept in the hands of those who earned it, even though much of what is earned is concentrated into relatively few hands. Same as it ever was, same as it ever was. But true believers like you seem to think that your side is pure and holy while the other side is a criminal enterprise. So tell me, if the Democrats are pure as the driven snow then why did they support a candidate who became mega rich as Secretary of State and covered her tracks with the aid of the previous administration? You seem concerned about Trump's tax returns(which legally he does not have to release, that's a tradition not a law), but aren't you equally concerned that she acid washed her server to prevent the reading of 33,000 emails? It was admitted by Comey already that she mishandled classified emails, some at the highest classification possible, out of the ones she did release. Where is the prosecution? There are people in prison right now who's infraction was miniscule compared to the scope of her's. Yet total silence from the Democrats and they voted in even bigger numbers for her, just not enough where it mattered. So when anyone charges the Republicans are corrupt and turns a blind eye to Democrat corruption how are they to be taken seriously? So why do I support Republicans? Because building dependency in exchange for votes does not insure a strong country. I really don't care that some get super rich building a business as long as they are providing solid jobs and aren't killing people doing it. But the whole keep the money flowing to the poor and to the government unions in exchange for them keeping me in office business just increases the debt without building a middle class. And the debt is close to collapsing the whole thing. Then where will we be? Can hardly wait for the derailment and red X's.
Click to expand...
Now the contention about government dependency of the poor is complete nonsense talking point that has no basis in reality and is again something that conservatives claim to care about, but that doesn't matter at all to them.

Now lets look at this dependency angle.

The largest group of people dependent on the government for money, healthcare are elderly people, by far and its not even close by the way.

The richest Americans are the most dependent on the government financially, that's why the spend the most on the government, are constantly begging the government for help and vote at the highest rates.

Usually when presented with the dependency of the elderly on the government, the people who claim to be so concerned about government dependency don't care about that.

Usually when presented with the dependency of the disabled on the government, the people who claim to be so concerned about government dependency don't care about that.

Nah, usually the people discussing government dependency derisively are more than willing to overlook a huge amount of government dependency as ok, what they care about are certain groups of Americans that they perceive to be dependent and for whom they don't think deserve it.

So again as I pointed out the issue for conservatives the thing they claim to care about which is government dependency(they are fine with millions and millions of Americans being dependent on the government) doesn't matter to them at all. What they care about is who they perceive to be dependent on government.
 
R

refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
vantexan said:
No, you just want to paint Republicans as monolithic, only in it for the money. Otherwise they'd reject Trump if they had any principles. As if Democrats don't care about money, are all altruistic Boy Scouts. Highly principled. Baloney. They all want the money, it's just a matter of approach. Democrats tell their constituents how much they care, while nothing ever really gets done that truly improves their lives. But the money keeps flowing in the form of entitlements, and their dependents um constituents keep the votes coming in return. And various enablers help themselves to a little off the top. The Republicans make their money making things as smooth as possible for their constituents in the business world. And they get generous support for doing so. The Dems whine and nag that money would be better spent on their constituents and the Republicans whine and nag that money should be kept in the hands of those who earned it, even though much of what is earned is concentrated into relatively few hands. Same as it ever was, same as it ever was. But true believers like you seem to think that your side is pure and holy while the other side is a criminal enterprise. So tell me, if the Democrats are pure as the driven snow then why did they support a candidate who became mega rich as Secretary of State and covered her tracks with the aid of the previous administration? You seem concerned about Trump's tax returns(which legally he does not have to release, that's a tradition not a law), but aren't you equally concerned that she acid washed her server to prevent the reading of 33,000 emails? It was admitted by Comey already that she mishandled classified emails, some at the highest classification possible, out of the ones she did release. Where is the prosecution? There are people in prison right now who's infraction was miniscule compared to the scope of her's. Yet total silence from the Democrats and they voted in even bigger numbers for her, just not enough where it mattered. So when anyone charges the Republicans are corrupt and turns a blind eye to Democrat corruption how are they to be taken seriously? So why do I support Republicans? Because building dependency in exchange for votes does not insure a strong country. I really don't care that some get super rich building a business as long as they are providing solid jobs and aren't killing people doing it. But the whole keep the money flowing to the poor and to the government unions in exchange for them keeping me in office business just increases the debt without building a middle class. And the debt is close to collapsing the whole thing. Then where will we be? Can hardly wait for the derailment and red X's.
Click to expand...

Lets look at the Democratic party is buying votes angle.

The poor in fact vote the least and they are a relatively small percentage of the population, and helping the poor through government programs greatly angers and upsets many millions of all kinds of bigots and haters of certain kinds of Americans.

So the idea that the Democratic party helps out the poor for votes never made sense, and the idea that the poor perceive that their existence is tied to government aid never made sense because the poor don't vote and politicians don't actually listen to the poor, so this is another lie that conservatives tell themselves.

Oh the Democrats want to pretend to care, but they are only doing it to get the votes..... but again the poor don't vote and helping the poor greatly angers and upsets off all kinds of bigots and haters of certain kinds of Americans to be against the Democratic party.
 
R

refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
vantexan said:
No, you just want to paint Republicans as monolithic, only in it for the money. Otherwise they'd reject Trump if they had any principles. As if Democrats don't care about money, are all altruistic Boy Scouts. Highly principled. Baloney. They all want the money, it's just a matter of approach. Democrats tell their constituents how much they care, while nothing ever really gets done that truly improves their lives. But the money keeps flowing in the form of entitlements, and their dependents um constituents keep the votes coming in return. And various enablers help themselves to a little off the top. The Republicans make their money making things as smooth as possible for their constituents in the business world. And they get generous support for doing so. The Dems whine and nag that money would be better spent on their constituents and the Republicans whine and nag that money should be kept in the hands of those who earned it, even though much of what is earned is concentrated into relatively few hands. Same as it ever was, same as it ever was. But true believers like you seem to think that your side is pure and holy while the other side is a criminal enterprise. So tell me, if the Democrats are pure as the driven snow then why did they support a candidate who became mega rich as Secretary of State and covered her tracks with the aid of the previous administration? You seem concerned about Trump's tax returns(which legally he does not have to release, that's a tradition not a law), but aren't you equally concerned that she acid washed her server to prevent the reading of 33,000 emails? It was admitted by Comey already that she mishandled classified emails, some at the highest classification possible, out of the ones she did release. Where is the prosecution? There are people in prison right now who's infraction was miniscule compared to the scope of her's. Yet total silence from the Democrats and they voted in even bigger numbers for her, just not enough where it mattered. So when anyone charges the Republicans are corrupt and turns a blind eye to Democrat corruption how are they to be taken seriously? So why do I support Republicans? Because building dependency in exchange for votes does not insure a strong country. I really don't care that some get super rich building a business as long as they are providing solid jobs and aren't killing people doing it. But the whole keep the money flowing to the poor and to the government unions in exchange for them keeping me in office business just increases the debt without building a middle class. And the debt is close to collapsing the whole thing. Then where will we be? Can hardly wait for the derailment and red X's.
Click to expand...

Finally, I have to address one more thing, the idea that helping the poor is driving up budget deficits or the national debt.

In fact, the poor are helped the least by our government and again they act like it by not voting, not even paying attention to politics for the most part.

They get very little in the way of government services of the kind of services are identified as aid to the poor.

The largest government programs, like SS, Medicare, Medicaid, and the military mostly goes to middle class to rich Americans and the money ends up in the pockets of hospitals and doctors defense contractors, pharmaceutical companies and various other industries.

Those 4 government programs plus paying interest on the national debt are about 70%-75% of the 4.1trillion federal budget.

The programs we usually associate with the poor like Tanf/welfare(16.5 billion per year), housing voucher/section 8(47billion per year, food stamps(71billion per year, and WIC(6.6billion) make up less than 4% of federal spending.

So the whole oh all this spending on the poor is driving up the national debt has no basis in reality.

And is yet another thing conservatives say they care about but don't.

The largest federal programs, all the military spending, all the social security spending, all the medicare and Medicaid spending are very popular with conservatives.

But the tiniest programs in relative terms to the federal budget get the most attention from conservatives.

Again, this attention from conservatives has nothing to do with the national debt or budget deficits because they'd focus on the largest government programs first not ones that don't total 4% of the budget, this attention is because of who conservatives perceive to be benefitting from those programs and because they don't want their government to help those Americans.
 
R

refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
Sportello said:
The lobbyists of the wealthy write the laws. The wealthy are our law makers.

Vote them out or ride their coat tails.

Unfortunately, government service has become the favorite stomping ground of grifters, and they don't consider it a service, so much as a chance to grift.
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That's all well and good but it didn't really pertain to the point I was making about the kinds of people who are upset about the government helping the poor, are silent and accepting of the wealthy creating a whole industry dedicated to begging the government.

I don't know what you mean by grifters... in the context of my post

I will add, there is a social contract between citizens and the US government. This social contract is very elegant and simple and was spelled out by Thomas Jefferson. The American social contract is basically Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, this means that the government should aid all Americans in those things.

It seems like a lot of Americans are ok with the government helping out certain Americans, but get very, very angry when the government helps certain other Americans. They create all of kinds of bs justifications for their anger at those Americans getting help, but the basic reality that they are anti- other groups of Americans is plain as day.
 
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vantexan

Well-Known Member
You say you aren't partisan then proceed to tell how horrible conservatives, Republicans, etc are. I can't comment on everything you've written now as I've just taken a quick glance. But I do believe from what I've seen you and I have fundamental differences in how things are, as well as perceived. I noticed at the start that you said you never mentioned money, I'm saying it's all about money. We can go on and on here, let me look at what you've posted and think about it.
 
R

refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
newfie said:
yea ok, just quoting you, not my fault if you're all over the board. you denied a populist uprising.

the scope of the republican win shows exactly that
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No it doesn't, the republican platform has nothing to do with populism.

Trump is not a populist. He has an exclusionary message.

The national republican agenda of income tax cuts, corporate tax cuts, de-regulation for the benefit of the industries that are being regulated are all very unpopular.

The only somewhat popular elements of the republican agenda are the parts that are exclusionary to certain groups of Americans that conservative voters hate.

That's not really a populist agenda though since even a lot of those things aren't popular with the public at large.
 
R

refineryworker05

Well-Known Member
vantexan said:
You say you aren't partisan then proceed to tell how horrible conservatives, Republicans, etc are. I can't comment on everything you've written now as I've just taken a quick glance. But I do believe from what I've seen you and I have fundamental differences in how things are, as well as perceived. I noticed at the start that you said you never mentioned money, I'm saying it's all about money. We can go on and on here, let me look at what you've posted and think about it.
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I didn't say conservatives are horrible. I am just detailing their tactics and what they actually believe which isn't most of the stuff they talk about.

I am sure we have fundamental differences, because you seem to believe the poor are driving up the debt, a lie. That the Democrats only help the poor to get votes, not a well thought out conclusion, and that the poor are dependent on the government, another lie.

But I am about done with this topic unless you post something other than.

Oh, I feel how I feel cause this group of people suck and don't deserve help blah, blah, blah.

Or both parties pursue money blah, blah, blah so republicans doing x, y, z, that has nothing to do with money is just fine cause the democrats are horrible cause they help the poor for votes.
 

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