Yes or NO on NEW CONTRACT?

[kingOFchester]

Some quick math to add.

As I sit here "no bennies" self employed other then UPS....I pay a little over 20k a year for good insurance. After paying for dental and eye, I know it is more then that.....but lets call it 20k.
Lets base this on a 5 year work term. (that is about how long I HAD planned on working at UPS) decided i wanted to go all in and become a driver....

INS kicks in after 6 months for us now. So after working 5 years I save 90,000.00 in insurance premiums, deductibles and meds.
Based on a 3.5 work day that is 4,550 work hours in the 5 years.
That means that I am earning an extra 20hr for the 5 years on top of pay.
If the said contract is correct and bennies will take a year and a half
New hire would now save about 70,000.00 in 5 years.
based on a 3.5hr work day that is 4,550 working hours in 5 years
That means the new hire will be earning an extra 15hr for the 5 years on top of their pay. That is a 25% decrease in pay. And that is based on a part timer staying on for 5 years. If they stay shorter....even more of a decrease.

 

[GuyinBrown]

Some quick math to add.

As I sit here "no bennies" self employed other then UPS....I pay a little over 20k a year for good insurance. After paying for dental and eye, I know it is more then that.....but lets call it 20k.
Lets base this on a 5 year work term. (that is about how long I HAD planned on working at UPS) decided i wanted to go all in and become a driver....

INS kicks in after 6 months for us now. So after working 5 years I save 90,000.00 in insurance premiums, deductibles and meds.
Based on a 3.5 work day that is 4,550 work hours in the 5 years.
That means that I am earning an extra 20hr for the 5 years on top of pay.
If the said contract is correct and bennies will take a year and a half
New hire would now save about 70,000.00 in 5 years.
based on a 3.5hr work day that is 4,550 working hours in 5 years
That means the new hire will be earning an extra 15hr for the 5 years on top of their pay. That is a 25% decrease in pay. And that is based on a part timer staying on for 5 years. If they stay shorter....even more of a decrease.

Except that you're not taking it away from those that already have it, so those that aren't hired yet, really aren't losing anything. Like any other job on the planet, they could weigh the pros and cons and choose for themselves if they wanted to work for UPS. Using your math, new part timers would have ( including salary ) well over $100,000 in compensation in 5 years. I challenge you to find another part time job that can provide that.

 

[GuyinBrown]

In response to your earlier post, I agree that the whole starting wage / benefit thing is a problem. When you're only willing to pay people just above minimum wage, the effort they give is also more than likely going to be just above the minimum. When I started 20 years ago, I started at $8 an hour. UPS probably turned away 2/3 of the people that applied just because they were able to pick and choose the ones they thought would work out best. Now they're pretty much just looking for a heartbeat and are lucky enough to land the occasional "keeper". If they want quality workers, they're going to have to come up with a new way to attract them.

 

[kingOFchester]

In response to your earlier post, I agree that the whole starting wage / benefit thing is a problem. When you're only willing to pay people just above minimum wage, the effort they give is also more than likely going to be just above the minimum. When I started 20 years ago, I started at $8 an hour. UPS probably turned away 2/3 of the people that applied just because they were able to pick and choose the ones they thought would work out best. Now they're pretty much just looking for a heartbeat and are lucky enough to land the occasional "keeper". If they want quality workers, they're going to have to come up with a new way to attract them.

Sorry I wasn't more clear. that was my point. They can'r keep good workers as it is. With the new "contract" it will probably be even harder.

 

[westsideworma]

What affect will this have on us new hires? I have just made my first month. By March 08 I should have the health for me and the family. Will I be "grand fathered" in? I can't see them taking them away in Aug. but not sure. UPS......scratch that....the teamsters "Hoffa" are really putting the big friend'u to its workers. I can't see how UPS will atract any hard workers as Part timers when they will pay crap and give no benefits for a year to 18 months. I know a lot of the guys in my shift have other businesses...window installlers...painters...contractors....al there for health bennies. I can't see any new guys coming in and having to wait that long to get the bennies.

it will only affect those hired after the new contract is voted in (unless its rejected obviously) by the members. You will keep your benefits. UPS could possibly be shooting themselves in the foot if this turns out to be true. As you said UPS will have a hard time getting anyone but the most desperate of workers.

Yes UPS offers a job that can lead to a great paying full time position...but most of you forget, many aren't here for that believe it or not. Part Timers are held accountable for standards just as you are such as PPH, Misloads, Late Air (unless clearly driver error and yes that does happen). Obviously if they know the contract they know standards are a farce but many don't. Though we haven't fired for misloads at my hub yet, I think its only a matter of time. The fact that these people didn't have a misload problem until PAS doesn't seem to matter (I think it should). Some that "know" the contract think its OK to load at 100pph (definitely not a fair days work for a fair days pay)....THAT is pathetic but what can you do.

 

[705red]

You have a point, but by the same token Red's post was more of a personal attack and VT's more of a general attack.

The Browncafe does not condone either attack because it discourages communication and nobody wants to post if they're going to get jumped on!

Name calling does not reinforce your side of an argument it just makes you look like a bully.

Let's save that for the fantasy football trash talking thread!

Tony we will have to agree to disagree here, I was standing up for my self and other posters to vt over his calling us stupid. I at no time called him any names i just used his job title and his dream job as a reference to him. I understand you have to do your job, but if your only calling me out on this than i do have a problem with it, i was not the one to attack any poster. If im guilty at all its for standing up to a sup whos only intention on this thread is to force feed us a garbage contract!

 

[705red]

Vote no and you cant kiss your pension as you know it good bye. The pension reform act rules are simply.BE FUNDED OVER 80% or we will cut your benefit. Dont like it , then write your congressman or senator. They are the ones who changed the rules of the game.Giving up some minor things to get a five dollar increase for health and welfare , four in your pocket and no change in health care looks pretty good to me. Dont drink the kool aid that the unrealistic folks are offering you.The pension was goal number one. This contract will fix that concern!!

YES

Go ahead and vote yes and give away job protection language, medical for our p-timers, who knows what else. Remember some of the offers ups had on the table, the ability to use p-time air drivers to deliver grounds. Imagine how many full time jobs that would lose, and if they are using p-timers to do it they wont have to pay into the friend-timers pension plan for this work performed. You know that ups and the teamsters have to have a back up offer ready to roll just incase this one doesnt pass. We will see all the details hopefully next week all of the locals are meeting on oct 11th to go through the agreement.

 

[RockyRogue]

You know that ups and the teamsters have to have a back up offer ready to roll just incase this one doesnt pass.

Possible but not likely. If this one doesn't pass, we're probably looking at a strike next fall. God help us if that happens. -Rocky

 

[cheryl]

Tony we will have to agree to disagree here, I was standing up for my self and other posters to vt over his calling us stupid. I at no time called him any names i just used his job title and his dream job as a reference to him. I understand you have to do your job, but if your only calling me out on this than i do have a problem with it, i was not the one to attack any poster. If im guilty at all its for standing up to a sup whos only intention on this thread is to force feed us a garbage contract!

Red, I realize that for you and many other members this topic brings up heated emotions but I still do expect all of you, including VT, to be respectful of one another on this forum no matter what the topic. You've written posts in several different threads that are a good example of how to disagree with other viewpoints in a respectful and informative way so please be aware that this post isn't targeting you, I'm just reminding everyone that all points of view are welcome here.

From the terms of service:

Discussion can be animated, which is fine, but we do not welcome personal attacks, on- or off-site.

It is fine to disagree with a different viewpoint, but please limit this to challenging the idea and not make your comments a personal challenge or make derogatory personal comments about individuals, their ideas or their situation. The latter is considered to be a flame and will not be tolerated.

 

[705red]

Possible but not likely. If this one doesn't pass, we're probably looking at a strike next fall. God help us if that happens. -Rocky

Rocky the chances of a full blown strike ever again are pretty slim. It took some time to get back to were we were at after the strike and now look how far we have come in just 10 years since. Remember here rocky that it seems both sides want ups out of the cs plan, so they have to be ready if its voted down in order to make the 01/08 pension changes.

Red, I realize that for you and many other members this topic brings up heated emotions but I still do expect all of you, including VT, to be respectful of one another on this forum no matter what the topic.

From the terms of service:

Discussion can be animated, which is fine, but we do not welcome personal attacks, on- or off-site.

It is fine to disagree with a different viewpoint, but please limit this to challenging the idea and not make your comments a personal challenge or make derogatory personal comments about individuals, their ideas or their situation. The latter is considered to be a flame and will not be tolerated.

Cheryl i have nothing but respect for you and tony in providing us with this forum to discuss ups related issues with other across the us and the world.

 

[tieguy]

The Economics of the Tentative Agreement

Our International Union continues to keep a tight lid on facts about the tentative agreement.

But Make UPS Deliver has obtained some information about the outlines of the economic package.

The tentative deal provides for wage increases of $4 an hour over the life of the contract. Annual wage increases will be 70¢-75¢-75¢-85¢-95¢. A portion of each wage increase would be delayed six months, until February of the following year.

Under the tentative deal, UPS would contribute $1 an hour more each year toward our benefits. This would be split between pension and health and welfare.

The tentative deal includes concessions that would lengthen the wage progression to 36 months. This is the second contract in a row that Hoffa has given in to the company's demand to increase the progression by six months. If the agreement is approved, it would take a driver three years to get up to top pay.

The new deal would also lengthen the probationary period to 60 days.

Economic Gains Not as Big as 2002 Contract

Chief negotiators James Hoffa and hall promised the “Richest Contract Ever” but the new tentative deal actually provides for smaller percentage gains than the 2002 “Best Contract Ever.”

While the tentative agreement includes approximately $9 an hour in wage and benefit improvements compared to $8.75 over six years in 2002, this amounts to a smaller percentage increase than the current contract.

• * The 2002 contract delivered wage and benefit increases of 27.57 percent over the length of the contract. In comparison, the current agreement provides for a total increase of just 22.22 percent.

• * Over five years, the new tentative deal would average increases in wages and benefits of 4.4 percent per year. Over six years, the 2002 contract averaged higher wage and benefit increases of 4.6 percent per year.

Contracts are compared by percentage, because a dollar in 2008 is not the same as a dollar in 2002.

Under this proposed contract full-time wages would likely fall behind inflation. To keep pace with inflation of three percent a year, we would need to negotiate wage increases of 85¢, 87¢, 90¢, 92¢, and 95¢, or $4.49 over the life of the agreement—compared to the $4 actually negotiated.

Tentative Agreement Would Put Money into Benefits

As expected, the tentative agreement puts more money into pensions and healthcare than wages. Many members are greatly concerned about pensions and health care. But more than what is paid in, members want to know what benefit improvements will be coming.

There are reports that in the Central States Area, retiree health care for 30-and-out retirees will be available for $200 per month ($400 to include spouse). However, we await detailed information in writing.

Bend over boys! Looks like the teamsters got screwed again! 3 yr wage proggession for full time drivers, minimal raises w/the slap in the face 2 raises a year(cant even give ya 70 cents at one time). Wow a multibillion dollar company cant even give there hard working employees wages to keep up with inflation. What a joke. Nice jobb HOFFA!!!!!!!!!! SHi*ty contract!!!

Great Job on helping out the part-timers too!

Classic example of my previous point that part timers don't represent. Heres philly who didn't show his face on this board until recently when he decided to show up here to politic against the contract offer. Yet he should have been involved in the early stages of this process not after the hand shake.

 

[Leftinbuilding]

Something to consider-- Fed Ex is contacting our shippers and telling them their volume will not be accepted ( by Fed Ex) after early next year in case of a UPS strike. So our shippers are already nervous and it won't take much to cause them to divert pkgs. We don't operate in a vacuum. Our actions affect others therefore we had better be concerned about the overall health of OUR business or wages will be a moot point. I think an early contract settlement, coupled with Fed Ex financial woes could put UPS in a great position for the future. We are definitely at a crossroad. We all have issues we would like addressed, but Teamsters can't negotiate 230,000 individual contracts. Our (and our families) future is in our hands.

 

[tenandcounting]

I havent heard anything on the pension. What happens to us lucky employees that are in CS. People with 10, 15, 20, and 25 yrs vested
with cs, what happens with those years? Is UPS moving those vested years into the new fund or will we left for dead in cs?
What about strong 9.5 language? Filing a 9.5 grievance today is a joke.

you are correct no 9.5 always yelling got to make 9.5 then dispatch it 9.5.As for us old timmers we are concerened about the cs We have heard about getting two checks ,one from cs one from ups.

 

[local804]

You are right.
But, the chance for any CS pension reform goes POOF!!!
ERISA takes over, while the teamsters go back to the table.
The proverbial rock and a hard place.

Btw I am talking on a local level, didnt mean to confuse the troops. Imo,the contract (on our local level) will not pass. They will have plenty of time to do what they do best while we continue to service the customers. Would really suck if 49 of our states are working and NY is shut down.

 

[nickelback]

1 Don't know, there are too many 'he said, they said" things. I don't trust the company or the union. One is in business to make money for themselves and the other one wants to spend it on themselves. My advice is to save as much money as you can, send your spouse to work, donate blood or plasma, pick up cans on Saturdays, start going to yard sales as a way of life. Do not couint on anyone to take care of you. Have you ever had the company or the union ever care about you ? If they have there is a motive behind their "care". We can vote NO or we can be chatting for another 5 years.

 

[local804]

Go ahead and vote yes and give away job protection language, medical for our p-timers, who knows what else. Remember some of the offers ups had on the table, the ability to use p-time air drivers to deliver grounds. Imagine how many full time jobs that would lose, and if they are using p-timers to do it they wont have to pay into the friend-timers pension plan for this work performed. You know that ups and the teamsters have to have a back up offer ready to roll just incase this one doesnt pass. We will see all the details hopefully next week all of the locals are meeting on oct 11th to go through the agreement.

I agree with Red,"And YES I owned himin football this week"
We have a meeting the 14th re many of the issues(on a local level)
Alot of people DO NOT understand what the word negotiations mean so I will try to help out here.

Broadly speaking, negotiation is an interaction of influences. Such interactions, for example, include the process of resolving disputes, agreeing upon courses of action, bargaining for individual or collective advantage, or crafting outcomes to satisfy various interests. Negotiation is thus a form of alternative dispute resolution.

Negotiation involves two basic elements: the process and the substance. The process refers to how the parties negotiate: the context of the negotiations, the parties to the negotiations, the relationships among these parties, the communication between these parties, the tactics used by the parties, and the sequence and stages in which all of these play out. The substance, however, refers to what the parties negotiate over: the agenda, the issues, the options, and the agreement(s) reached at the end.

Skilled negotiators may use a variety of tactics ranging from a straight forward presentation of demands or setting of preconditions to more deceptive approaches such as cherry picking. Intimidation and salami tactics may also play a part in swaying the outcome of negotiations.

Advice to all
1. Calm down
2. Relax
3. Enjoy time with your family
4. Let the negotiations handle themselves.

Remember a few years ago UPS offered thier final offer?
Guess what..... it wasnt......

 

[nickelback]

Off the subject

How do you put a picture under your name ?11

 

[richfs46]

I say NO! I've been a driver for 22 years (local 804) and this is the worst yet! A Split raise? You got to be kidding. UPS should be ashamed of them selves and the union too for even considering this. No increase in our pension! That means at the end of this proposed contract we will have gone 11 years without an increase. This is all give backs. The company is making out big time if this passes. You have to realize UPS is making money hand over fist. It's not like they're bleeding red ink. Let the workers get their fair share. I'm voting no! Let them go back to the table and negotiate something thats fair!!

 

[tieguy]

What affect will this have on us new hires? I have just made my first month. By March 08 I should have the health for me and the family. Will I be "grand fathered" in? I can't see them taking them away in Aug. but not sure. UPS......scratch that....the teamsters "Hoffa" are really putting the big friend'u to its workers. I can't see how UPS will atract any hard workers as Part timers when they will pay crap and give no benefits for a year to 18 months. I know a lot of the guys in my shift have other businesses...window installlers...painters...contractors....al there for health bennies. I can't see any new guys coming in and having to wait that long to get the bennies.

You will not be affected by changes to newhires.

 

[HazMatMan]

Why didn't Hoffa push for an increase in part-time pay, why did Hoffa agree on the split raise? (half in August and half in February) What about the 50 in 100 to make book?? (increased from 30 in 60) Seems to me like UPS threw garbage on the table and Hoffa took it, seems like HE screwed the Teamsters more than UPS did.