And here they go once again

[brownIEman]

The "self directed" teams were a subterfuge and implemented prior to the 97 contract The stock (some) was offered to employees to purchase so that we wouldn't strike ("since we owned the company as stockholders") ... due to the projected and anticipated upheaval of the hourly's coming outrage at the ludicrous "performance based" pay scale offered and other stupid language changes proposed by the company.

"Work teams" may work for employees somewhere but not at UPS.

If everyone is objective and honest we could leave our houses and cars unlocked too. From what I have witnessed, honesty and truthfulness is only expected from the hourly, not the management, in this company.

Thank you for illustrating my point. The teams were the suggestion of a consulting firm called the Atlanta Consulting group to which UPS paid untold millions of dollars. Their ideas and strategies came from studies of labor in Europe among other places. The consultants told UPS that it had way too many management people and that it should allow the employees to have more say in how the job is done since they are the ones that know the job best. The implementations started in 95, the plans for them started way before that. It had absolutely no connection to either the stock offering or the 97 contract talks. By 97, UPS had a new CEO and was already giving up on the work teams ideas.

The fact that you still believe they were just a subterfuge to undermine a strike that was not even in the imagination of the folks who conceived them, proves to me that you bought hook, line, and sinker, the messages of the Teamsters PR machine. The Teamsters were very effective at turning employees against the work teams concept. My original point was that the UAW if it gets into this plant, will do the same to their "Work Councils".

 

[chuchu]

Thank you for illustrating my point. The teams were the suggestion of a consulting firm called the Atlanta Consulting group to which UPS paid untold millions of dollars. Their ideas and strategies came from studies of labor in Europe among other places. The consultants told UPS that it had way too many management people and that it should allow the employees to have more say in how the job is done since they are the ones that know the job best. The implementations started in 95, the plans for them started way before that. It had absolutely no connection to either the stock offering or the 97 contract talks. By 97, UPS had a new CEO and was already giving up on the work teams ideas.

The fact that you still believe they were just a subterfuge to undermine a strike that was not even in the imagination of the folks who conceived them, proves to me that you bought hook, line, and sinker, the messages of the Teamsters PR machine. The Teamsters were very effective at turning employees against the work teams concept. My original point was that the UAW if it gets into this plant, will do the same to their "Work Councils".

The Union (local) said nothing for or against self directed work groups. If you would have asked me if that was valid in our area you wouldn't have diluted your supposed analogies.

To validate your point that US unions are more aggressive, I would like to agree with you on that point.

There's a great reason for that. Abusesive management is the catalyst for aggressive union activism.

Your posting reminds me of a guy in my high school class. He passed all four grades in hi school but couldn't graduate because he didn't take the required courses.

Our experience locally nets our response. Your suppositions are entertaining.

 

[chuchu]

BrownIEman,
I believe this conversation exposes the real problem and disconnect between corporate UPS and the hourly.

What upper UPS management THINKS that their hourly employees share in directives with them is predominantly so far off target and not because of the union's involvement but because management at the operational level lie, are many times abusive and constantly break the very contract they signed to screw over the employees who utilize union representation to combat the afore mentioned issues.

Employees that work at Honda and other similar employers don't have the acute, consistent harassment that UPS employees do. Many aren't unionized but don't feel the need to be.

It always amazes us how people so smart at the top can be so dumb and out of touch at times.

I guess they like the disconnect or their middle management employees would never behave like they have for years.

Don't blame the unions for ups not having a good relationship employees.

 

[Bubblehead]

In my building the "Team Concept" plan failed for the same reason most every other initiative struggles or fails, it was implemented on the cheap and was poorly maintained.
As I remember it, the front line managers had the biggest problem with it.
They seemed almost emasculated with the notion and very little that was suggested by drivers was ever implemented.
Perhaps these managers saw the writing on the wall, as if it were a success, many of them would not be needed?
It never had a chance as a 180 degree concept from anything anybody at UPS ever considered within the company.
It's nonsensical to suggest that an hourly wouldn't embrace their ideas being considered.

 

[PT Car Washer]

I thoroughly "C" wash my truck about once a month for time and a half.
I takes longer to gather the supplies than it does to do the job.
Seems like it would be cheaper to have a part timer do it?

PT car washers did C washes several times a week depending on how dirty the backs got. Most trucks on gravel roads got a C wash every night. Dumped the PTers to save money and turned the work over to FT. FT car washers do not wash cars if they don't want to. Just drink coffee all night.

 

[chuchu]

PT car washers did C washes several times a week depending on how dirty the backs got. Most trucks on gravel roads got a C wash every night. Dumped the PTers to save money and turned the work over to FT. FT car washers do not wash cars if they don't want to. Just drink coffee all night.

Not in our local. They let the PT go home even if the cars aren't washed.

Mgmnt says they don't have the hrs available.

 

[brownIEman]

In my building the "Team Concept" plan failed for the same reason most every other initiative struggles or fails, it was implemented on the cheap and was poorly maintained.
As I remember it, the front line managers had the biggest problem with it.
They seemed almost emasculated with the notion and very little that was suggested by drivers was ever implemented.
Perhaps these managers saw the writing on the wall, as if it were a success, many of them would not be needed?
It never had a chance as a 180 degree concept from anything anybody at UPS ever considered within the company.
It's nonsensical to suggest that an hourly wouldn't embrace their ideas being considered.

In my estimation the largest reason that the work teams concept failed was exactly what you describe-management on the front lines didn't understand it and our embrace it.
The Union trying to get the membership not to participate helped drive the nails into the coffin.
You can say it is nonsensical to suggest hourly employees would not embrace having their ideas heard, but in this thread you have an hourly, chuchu, who clearly stated when given that opportunity he chose to wash his car instead. Several times. Nonsensical or not, I would call that non embracing.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

What upper UPS management THINKS that their hourly employees share in directives with them is predominantly so far off target and not because of the union's involvement but because management at the operational level lie, are many times abusive and constantly break the very contract they signed to screw over the employees who utilize union representation to combat the afore mentioned issues.

From the moment a "new" contract is signed....The company is looking for ways to evade it.

That.... filters down to the lower management.

They brag about it.


All the more reason.... to be vigilant. Enforce your contractual rights.



-Bug-

 

[Bubblehead]

In my estimation the largest reason that the work teams concept failed was exactly what you describe-management on the front lines didn't understand it and our embrace it.
The Union trying to get the membership not to participate helped drive the nails into the coffin.
You can say it is nonsensical to suggest hourly employees would not embrace having their ideas heard, but in this thread you have an hourly, chuchu, who clearly stated when given that opportunity he chose to wash his car instead. Several times. Nonsensical or not, I would call that non embracing.

Chuchu "clearly" said nothing of the sort, from what I read in this thread?
But if that were the case, and what we said was the case regarding the lack of "buy in" by management, why would a smart fella like chuchu approach the program as if it were sincere.
How could any intelligent hourly employee not be skeptical of such a radically different initiative, especially when their supervisor isn't earnestly selling it?

Like most new UPS programs, a huge initial investment was followed by neglect and a short changed lack of support.

 

[Dragon]

Like most new UPS programs, a huge initial investment was followed by neglect and a short changed lack of support.
Could not have said it any better myself.

The 2 minute PCM and a thousand DIAD messages later we are still trying to "train" people.

 

[chuchu]

In my estimation the largest reason that the work teams concept failed was exactly what you describe-management on the front lines didn't understand it and our embrace it.
The Union trying to get the membership not to participate helped drive the nails into the coffin.
You can say it is nonsensical to suggest hourly employees would not embrace having their ideas heard, but in this thread you have an hourly, chuchu, who clearly stated when given that opportunity he chose to wash his car instead. Several times. Nonsensical or not, I would call that non embracing.

You, again, have proven my point.

Connecting the dots takes a willingness to understand the other person's feelings and how those feelings were precipitated and why.

Out of touch and purposely blind doesn't mean that the train isn't coming. It's not about car wash, it's about brain wash. You must be in IE.

Management doesn't "get it" because they don't want to. So the divide and disbelief continues.

That's why your programs aren't bought and given credibility to by hourly. Don't blame the IBT.

We don't believe management because predominantly, you are unbelievable.

 

[chuchu]

Like most new UPS programs, a huge initial investment was followed by neglect and a short changed lack of support.
Could not have said it any better myself.

The 2 minute PCM and a thousand DIAD messages later we are still trying to "train" people.

And, drivers are still fixing your dispatches from the time the airs come down the belt until the 3 o'clock "re"dispatch and are constantly reminding you folks "in control" that you forgot to dispatch 30 plus pickups from the route you cut at 7:30 AM.

If we're hard to train, I'd say that you college grads are impossible to babysit.

 

[Bubblehead]

Like most new UPS programs, a huge initial investment was followed by neglect and a short changed lack of support.
Could not have said it any better myself.

The 2 minute PCM and a thousand DIAD messages later we are still trying to "train" people.

I'm not sure, while chuchu seemingly is, whether this comment was sarcastically facetious or genuine?

 

[Anonymous 11]

I'm not sure, while chuchu seemingly is, whether this comment was sarcastically facetious or genuine?

I'm thinking the manager is being genuine. Sounds like he knows how how stupid this Big Brown Machine can really be.

 

[chuchu]

I'm thinking the manager is being genuine. Sounds like he knows how how stupid this Big Brown Machine can really be.

That'll be a first IMO and from past experience. If, I'm wrong... I apologize.
If not, statements stand as stated, IMO.

 

[Anonymous 11]

That'll be a first IMO and from past experience. If, I'm wrong... I apologize.
If not, statements stand as stated, IMO.

Just remember friend. Ups is a den of thieves and liars. There might be someone as honest as the good lord but there was only one Jesus and he ain't here.

 

[chuchu]

Just remember friend. Ups is a den of thieves and liars. There might be someone as honest as the good lord but there was only one Jesus and he ain't here.

Every American worker should work at UPS for at least a year (by the way the pt turnover rate looks...maybe they have already) so they can see how not to treat their employees if they ever become a supervisor or own a business.

 

[Anonymous 11]

Every American worker should work at UPS for at least a year (by the way the pt turnover rate looks...maybe they have already) so they can see how not to treat their employees if they ever become a supervisor or own a business.

Yea I say the same thing kinda. Everyone should be a steward for a year. They'd probably not cut as many corners and think a lot more about the consequences.

 

[Dragon]

I'm not sure, while chuchu seemingly is, whether this comment was sarcastically facetious or genuine?

It was genuine, I was not trying to blame you guys..Management trying to train something in 2 minutes or 5 does not make the best training.

 

[chuchu]

It was genuine, I was not trying to blame you guys..Management trying to train something in 2 minutes or 5 does not make the best training.

My apologies. Are you OK?