Arizona's anti-imigration law...

[island1fox]

TOS,
You make alot of valid points. I have often stated that U.S. companies that can do the work here but choose to do it outside U.S. borders should pay a heavy price. I have also stated that companies doing business in the U.S. should have lower taxes and incentives to grow and hire. Companies such as Boeing should be able to choose where in the U.S. they want to build their planes instead of being "pushed out" by government interference.
My other point is Mexico. Why do they not insist on a minimum wage and worker protection especially with companies from foreign companies ?
We keep talking about the plight and flight of Mexican workers yet it seems their government does nothing but help them over the border.

 

[Lue C Fur]

TOS,
My other point is Mexico. Why do they not insist on a minimum wage and worker protection especially with companies from foreign companies ?
We keep talking about the plight and flight of Mexican workers yet it seems their government does nothing but help them over the border.

The Mexican goverment likes the American dollars that come back to Mexico.

 

[The Other Side]

TOS,
You make alot of valid points. I have often stated that U.S. companies that can do the work here but choose to do it outside U.S. borders should pay a heavy price. I have also stated that companies doing business in the U.S. should have lower taxes and incentives to grow and hire. Companies such as Boeing should be able to choose where in the U.S. they want to build their planes instead of being "pushed out" by government interference.
My other point is Mexico. Why do they not insist on a minimum wage and worker protection especially with companies from foreign companies ?
We keep talking about the plight and flight of Mexican workers yet it seems their government does nothing but help them over the border.

ISland,

Many dont understand that mexico itself has an "immigration" problem as well.

The chinese have tons of people living there awaiting visas into the us. Whole cities have popped up in mexico. If you travel to acapulco, you only have to travel a couple miles outside of main street to see hundreds of chinese.

IN addition, central and south american hispanics are migrating into mexico and that adds more people to mexico than the goverment is willing to handle.

In response, mexico simply allows them to ride trains in any way possible to get as far north as they can. Once there, they illegally cross, those are the ones that make up the majority of hispanics crossing our borders.

AV8 said that 62% are mexicans, that is not true. 62% are of hispanic backgrounds and that includes all hispanics, mexican, central and south americans.

He just said mexicans.

Mexico will not take any action to stop its southern immigration problem. Nor will it take any action to stop the northern migration to the us.

Mexico is allowed to send its people up here and then they send the money back.

Mexico wins. We Lose.

It all starts with money and economics. We stop hiring them, temporary or not and we force either high tariffs on american imports from mexico or force american companies operating in mexico to pay living wages.

Here, republicans dont like the words "industry standards", people like moreluck would rather see americans payed less and recieve less in benefits and allow higher corporate profits, yet in mexico, she would support american companies using the term "industry standard" when paying less than 11 bucks a day.

Here, one company pays us 32 bucks an hour to deliver boxes and thats called "industry standard" fedex complains that the term is useless and they get support from people like moreluck, trip, av8, trickpony...

But industry standard is ok when an american company goes to another country and pays less than anyone could ever possibly live on and its called the free market.

We need to pick a side or be quiet on the issue.

peace.

 

[moreluck]

Go try to cross over to Mexico and see how you are treated....


Typically, when Mexican authorities catch illegal aliens, they place them overnight in a detention center, then bus or fly them back to their country of origin. Despite the fact that Mexico militarized its border and deported 203,128 illegal immigrants in 2004, many illegals get through by bribing corrupt military and police.
Do Mexicans appreciate the way America has allowed so many poor, Mexican illegals to enter the United States? No. According to a recent Zogby poll, 73 percent of Mexicans call Americans "racist"! When asked whether the United States' wealth comes from freedom and "plenty of opportunity to work," 70 percent of Americans agreed, while only 22 percent of Mexicans agreed. Sixty-two percent of Mexicans said America became wealthy because "it exploits others' wealth." While Americans, according to the poll, see Mexicans as hard-working (78 percent), Mexicans think of Americans as racist, intolerant and not very hard-working. Racist?

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49620


Read more: How does Mexico treat its illegals? http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49620#ixzz1M49M95t2

 

[trplnkl]

ISland,

Many dont understand that mexico itself has an "immigration" problem as well.

The chinese have tons of people living there awaiting visas into the us. Whole cities have popped up in mexico. If you travel to acapulco, you only have to travel a couple miles outside of main street to see hundreds of chinese.

It's not that I don't understand that mexico has an illegal immigration problem, it's that I don't care. That is their problem to solve just as our problem is our's to solve. That is exactly what many of us have been saying for longer than you've been hearing about the issue.

IN addition, central and south american hispanics are migrating into mexico and that adds more people to mexico than the goverment is willing to handle.
But they think WE...the USA...should be willing to handle more of their people as well as the ones they would handle. It's time for that crap to stop.

In response, mexico simply allows them to ride trains in any way possible to get as far north as they can. Once there, they illegally cross, those are the ones that make up the majority of hispanics crossing our borders.
Where do you get that info?

AV8 said that 62% are mexicans, that is not true. 62% are of hispanic backgrounds and that includes all hispanics, mexican, central and south americans.

He just said mexicans.
mexicans or not what difference does it make? If they come here through our southern border they are ILLEGAL aliens. Call them anything you want they are still criminals.

Mexico will not take any action to stop its southern immigration problem. Nor will it take any action to stop the northern migration to the us.
We can't do anything about mexico's southern borders, but we can do something about OURS.

Mexico is allowed to send its people up here and then they send the money back.
If our unemployment number were low enough, I don't have a problem with a work program of some kind as long as it is monitored effectively.
Mexico wins. We Lose.
And we lose more every year.

It all starts with money and economics. We stop hiring them, temporary or not and we force either high tariffs on american imports from mexico or force american companies operating in mexico to pay living wages.
I agree, except I don't know how the US government could regulate what an American company operating in mexico pays in wages, that would be up to the mexican government.

Here, republicans dont like the words "industry standards", people like moreluck would rather see americans payed less and recieve less in benefits and allow higher corporate profits, yet in mexico, she would support american companies using the term "industry standard" when paying less than 11 bucks a day.
Wouldn't the industry standard mean in the general location of like industries ?

Here, one company pays us 32 bucks an hour to deliver boxes and thats called "industry standard" fedex complains that the term is useless and they get support from people like moreluck, trip, av8, trickpony...
Whoa there big fella, before you use my name in an accusation make sure you know what you are talking about. I've never spoken against industry standard, here or anywhere else.

But industry standard is ok when an american company goes to another country and pays less than anyone could ever possibly live on and its called the free market.
It's pretty clear that industry standards will be different in different places because of cost of living standards.

We need to pick a side or be quiet on the issue.
Is that the royal we ?

peace.

 

[Babagounj]

Mass graves in Durango may set Mexican record


Mass graves in Durango may set Mexican record

By Tim Johnson
McClatchy Newspapers
DURANGO, Mexico — The backhoe finally fell silent, and investigator Jesus Salvador Romero stepped out of the compound of Mexico’s latest mass grave site, tugged off a surgical mask and issued a matter-of-fact report on the ghastly scene: The site had yielded 11 bodies in a few hours.
“None of them had bullet wounds. None were stabbed. They all seem to have been strangled using a rope tourniquet and a stick,” Romero said.
In less than a month, the upturned killing fields of this colonial city had given up 180 bodies by Tuesday, by official count, a horrific tally that’s forced the local morgue to rent a Thermo King refrigerator truck.
And the ground keeps offering fresh bodies, making it seem likely that Durango’s mass graves soon will eclipse what previously had been the largest set of unidentified corpses uncovered in Mexico: last month, in northeast Tamaulipas state, where 183 bodies piled up.
Never have such massive killing fields been found in such a short time in Mexico or anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, for that matter. The victims were lost to violence that only seems to intensify in a nation where prosecutors treat evidence shoddily and rarely bring mass murderers to justice. Most of the victims are likely to remain unidentified.

 

[The Other Side]

ISland,

Many dont understand that mexico itself has an "immigration" problem as well.

The chinese have tons of people living there awaiting visas into the us. Whole cities have popped up in mexico. If you travel to acapulco, you only have to travel a couple miles outside of main street to see hundreds of chinese.

It's not that I don't understand that mexico has an illegal immigration problem, it's that I don't care. That is their problem to solve just as our problem is our's to solve. That is exactly what many of us have been saying for longer than you've been hearing about the issue.

You must understand how one factor affect the other. You say you dont care, ok, then you must not understand the effect of multiplication. We are a part of the problem in mexico. 43% of all jobs are provided by the USA and growing each year. Those in central and south america go to mexico to get one of those jobs because they hear of them while living in a chitthole. Once there, they find that those jobs pay next to nothing so they move further north where they "hear" about jobs paying 75 to 100 a day in the usa. As long as this is the "mindset" they will always come.

Mexico does not have the resources or desire to stop this. In fact, they continue to encourage american companies to move down there without any concern for the us economy.


IN addition, central and south american hispanics are migrating into mexico and that adds more people to mexico than the goverment is willing to handle.
But they think WE...the USA...should be willing to handle more of their people as well as the ones they would handle. It's time for that crap to stop. We can agree on this point, but the problem still remains, how to get them to stop while millions of dollars of american money flood their GDP.

In response, mexico simply allows them to ride trains in any way possible to get as far north as they can. Once there, they illegally cross, those are the ones that make up the majority of hispanics crossing our borders.
Where do you get that info? This is common info if youre paying attention. Here is a link to an article that spells it out for you.
http://www.cjd.org/paper/cause.html

AV8 said that 62% are mexicans, that is not true. 62% are of hispanic backgrounds and that includes all hispanics, mexican, central and south americans.

He just said mexicans.
mexicans or not what difference does it make? If they come here through our southern border they are ILLEGAL aliens. Call them anything you want they are still criminals.
The difference is simple. They are different. racism doesnt make it ok. Not all people who speak spanish are from mexico. Calling them all mexicans is disrespectful. Yes they are all illegals, but there are white illegals as well. Would you consider them all one race?

Mexico will not take any action to stop its southern immigration problem. Nor will it take any action to stop the northern migration to the us.
We can't do anything about mexico's southern borders, but we can do something about OURS. Yes we can. We can stop exploiting those countries labor forces with jobs that pay close to nothing. If ANY american company goes to a foriegn country to operate, then they must pay a living wage or else they do nothing but to send those people here to the united states to take american jobs.

Mexico is allowed to send its people up here and then they send the money back.
If our unemployment number were low enough, I don't have a problem with a work program of some kind as long as it is monitored effectively.
Mexico wins. We Lose.
And we lose more every year.
We cant encourage temp workers, there is NO way to monitor it. Thousands of visas are issued for up to 3 months and then those people simply disappear into our country. The level of security it would take to monitor these people would cost trillions of dollars. We would lose even bigger.

It all starts with money and economics. We stop hiring them, temporary or not and we force either high tariffs on american imports from mexico or force american companies operating in mexico to pay living wages.
I agree, except I don't know how the US government could regulate what an American company operating in mexico pays in wages, that would be up to the mexican government.

I can fix that for ya, if an american company goes to ANY foriegn country and employs people, if those wages are not consistent with a living wage, then a hefty TARIFF should apply to all goods sent back to this country.

We need to discourage the practice in the first place.

Amana, Frigidaire, Briggs and Stratton, Levis and the like went to mexico and are paying about 10 bucks a day to assemble products. No benefits, no holidays, no taxes.

Then they send products back to this country duty free.

Who loses?


Here, republicans dont like the words "industry standards", people like moreluck would rather see americans payed less and recieve less in benefits and allow higher corporate profits, yet in mexico, she would support american companies using the term "industry standard" when paying less than 11 bucks a day.
Wouldn't the industry standard mean in the general location of like industries ?
Thats the republicans stance. In vietnam, they pay about 40 cents a day to laborers making american products, and they say its industry standard for the area.

Seriously?

Here, one company pays us 32 bucks an hour to deliver boxes and thats called "industry standard" fedex complains that the term is useless and they get support from people like moreluck, trip, av8, trickpony...
Whoa there big fella, before you use my name in an accusation make sure you know what you are talking about. I've never spoken against industry standard, here or anywhere else.
I may be mistaken here, but i recall you supporting gov walkers action against unions, and that is simply an attack on industry standards.
But industry standard is ok when an american company goes to another country and pays less than anyone could ever possibly live on and its called the free market.
It's pretty clear that industry standards will be different in different places because of cost of living standards.
If this is your belief, why then are the republicans trying to reduce the pay of all middle class americans when this country is the most expensive place to live in the whole world, excluding Monaco.
We need to pick a side or be quiet on the issue.
Is that the royal we ? No, and it aint a mouse in my pocket that speaks french either.

Peace.

 

[moreluck]

I hate it when people 'say what they think I believe" !! Awful damn forward of them!

 

[The Other Side]

I hate it when people 'say what they think I believe" !! Awful damn forward of them!

Dont cha hate when your words come back to haunt you?

Peace

 

[trplnkl]

You must understand how one factor affect the other. You say you dont care, ok, then you must not understand the effect of multiplication. We are a part of the problem in mexico. 43% of all jobs are provided by the USA and growing each year. Those in central and south america go to mexico to get one of those jobs because they hear of them while living in a chitthole. Once there, they find that those jobs pay next to nothing so they move further north where they "hear" about jobs paying 75 to 100 a day in the usa. As long as this is the "mindset" they will always come.

Mexico does not have the resources or desire to stop this. In fact, they continue to encourage american companies to move down there without any concern for the us economy.

According to the article that you kindly provided doesn’t jive with this. The people coming from mexico’s southern border are doing so to end up here. Not to get a job in mexico then finding out that job didn’t pay enough. They are leaving their homes to come here illegally and are being treated badly by the Mexican government in the process.
We have pussyfooted around with mexico for too many years, it’s not that mexico doesn’t have the resources it’s that they want us to do everything for them.

The difference is simple. They are different. racism doesnt make it ok. Not all people who speak spanish are from mexico. Calling them all mexicans is disrespectful. Yes they are all illegals, but there are white illegals as well. Would you consider them all one race?

What I’m talking about has absolutely nothing to do with race. Mexicans, Guatemalan, etc etc are mostly Hispanics, that is their race and irrelevant to the discussion. There are many white (as well as other races) Mexicans, there are many Hispanic Americans. The bottom line is, if they come here illegally they are criminals by definition. I know that many people do consider Mexican a race, it isn’t.

If ANY american company goes to a foriegn country to operate, then they must pay a living wage or else they do nothing but to send those people here to the united states to take american jobs.

Can’t disagree with that, but then you are forcing more restrictions on companies. Are you certain that is a good thing?

We cant encourage temp workers, there is NO way to monitor it. Thousands of visas are issued for up to 3 months and then those people simply disappear into our country. The level of security it would take to monitor these people would cost trillions of dollars. We would lose even bigger.

I’ve spoken against “guest workers” since I was a teenager, but for some reason no one seems to pay attention and I’ve been called a racist for it as well. I agree there is no way to successfully monitor that , we can’t even monitor the other visas as it is. I’ve always wanted to help people that need help and are willing to help themselves. However when doing so is going to drag me down I can’t ignore self preservation and that is the mode the US needs to be in today.

I can fix that for ya, if an american company goes to ANY foriegn country and employs people, if those wages are not consistent with a living wage, then a hefty TARIFF should apply to all goods sent back to this country.

I would have no problem supporting that, for ALL foreign imports. I would also support a sales tax free law(or something along those lines) for certified “made in the USA” products to encourage domestic production.

Thats the republicans stance. In vietnam, they pay about 40 cents a day to laborers making american products, and they say its industry standard for the area.[/QUOTE]
Why should one company be forced to pay more for labor than another?

I may be mistaken here, but i recall you supporting gov walkers action against unions, and that is simply an attack on industry standards.

Close but not exactly. I supported the idea of walker trying to reign in a run-a-way PUBLIC union where the union people were being paid above the industry standard. Since the employees in this case were statewide the industry standard would have to compare to other locals for comparison. It was reported that the teachers in Wi were above most other states with otherwise similar economies. Those teachers were making quite a bit more than Texas teachers.

If this is your belief, why then are the republicans trying to reduce the pay of all middle class americans when this country is the most expensive place to live in the whole world, excluding Monaco.

I’m not sold on the idea that this is the goal, that would be government suicide. Lower wages means lower tax dollars.

 

[moreluck]

You must think it's un American not to be gung-ho about unions. Union people are a minority.....they're just real loud!

 

[av8torntn]

.

AV8 said that 62% are mexicans, that is not true. 62% are of hispanic backgrounds and that includes all hispanics, mexican, central and south americans.

He just said mexicans.

.

Wrong again. I said DHS says that 62% are from Mexico which they do. Pew Hispanic center says 56% are from Mexico but you are the one that brought up DHS so I used your source. Actually the number two country of orgin, according to your source(DHS) is El Salvador at 5%. That would make them a distant second.
Most estimates place another 25% from all other Latin American countries(excluding Mexico) which clearly shows that the illegal immigrants are coming from the southern border.
Of course since these people are here illegally there is no way to know for certain. It is also estimated(GAO this time) that 49 % of illegal immigrants have not even completed high school.

 

[av8torntn]

AV8,

welcome to the debate....

The reality is AV, that most "mexicans" simply come in on airplanes and buses, not running across a hot desert. Being Hispanic, I know a little about this personally.

Establishing a tourist visa is easy to do, and millions are granted each year by our goverment. Its the golden ticket. They come in and never leave. Border guards will have ZERO effect on this aspect of immigration and hispanics.

You will only stop a small percentage or drop in the bucket compared to the real larger issue.

Peace.

Fair enough but since most Mexicans are not drug runners, human traffickers, gun runners, murders, or members of Mexican gangs I think it may be viewed as positive to stop that small percentage.

 

[moreluck]

Fair enough but since most Mexicans are not drug runners, human traffickers, gun runners, murders, or members of Mexican gangs I think it may be viewed as positive to stop that small percentage.

ALLare breaking the law if they come illegally.........a crime is a crime !!! AND it's definitely not victimless because money for help goes to illegals instead of an American who might need it.

 

[moreluck]

Crass & Cynical.......

http://finance.townhall.com/columni...and_cynical_on_illegal_immigration/page/full/

 

[The Other Side]

ALLare breaking the law if they come illegally.........a crime is a crime !!!

Moreluck,

This would be true if it were correct. The fact is that only 11% of illegal immigrants come here illegally.

The rest come here LEGALLY then become illegal. It is not a crime to come here LEGALLY.

The millions that are here didnt run across a hot steamy desert.

The flew in or bused in while in air conditioning. Some simply drove across our border checkpoints.

Your focus on the border on the south is mis guided at best.

Youre "told" to focus on it, because thats what your party tells you to focus on.

Name ONE republican who has given you the immigration numbers ive given you?

They have the same access to the data, yet, because they want you to focus on mexicans, they point you to the south.

Why are you not concerned with the 89% of illegal immigration? Its the bigger number, why are you directing your energy at the 11% and to be more specific, why are you focusing on the 3.666 % of the problem?

Dont you think that really sez something about your intentions?

Mexicans.

Mexicans running across the desert =3.666%,
all other illegal immigration = 96.334%

This thinking is a bit backwards.

You worry about "free money, healthcare, schools" and the like for the 3.666% but the other 96.334% goes on without discussion.

Do you seriously believe that if you stopped the 3.666% all your immigration problems would be solved?

Please try to understand the immigration problem the way it really is vs. the way a political party wants you to understand it.

We could build a wall 20 feet high from texas to california and you wouldnt make a dent in the immigration problem.

I hope you would realize that.

Peace.

 

[wkmac]

The Bipartisan Crackdown on Immigrants

In the 1980s, many prominent conservatives spoke openly in favor of liberalizing immigration. It was Ronald Reagan, after all, who was responsible for the United States’s last mass amnesty. The left was often skeptical about immigrants. Unionists opposed the free labor competition. Environmentalists and population controllers were among the most vocal advocates of restrictionism.
The politics of the 1990s appeared to be different. California passed Proposition 187, which cut illegal aliens off many state services—an initiative supported by voters who wanted to see the immigrants shut out as much as by those who objected to the illicit government spending. The rights of aliens to due process took a major beating in the Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, supported by most congressional Republicans and signed into law by President Bill Clinton. The restrictionist campaign of Pat Buchanan got lots of attention, and, into the next decade, among the several betrayals by Bush and the mainline GOP cited by rightwingers was their supposed commitment to open borders and amnesty.
Now President Obama boasts of having cracked down on the border. He wants a “comprehensive immigration” reform proposal, and is citing the dramatic increase in deportations and drug interdiction on his watch as evidence that now is time to pursue such a proposal. Undoubtedly, Republicans are fearful of moving too far toward liberalization, as they often have to prove to their base supporters how tough they are on the subject.
I must say I’ve never been very convinced by this idea that both parties are “soft” on immigration. To the contrary, as with most other excuses for increasing police power—drugs, terrorism, crime—both parties tend to play up fears and support a burgeoning surveillance state.

Anthony Gregory, analyst for the FreeMarket/Libertarian think tank The Independent Institute IMO makes some great points concerning the "bipartisan" nature of immigration and immigration hysteria.

 

[moreluck]

nitpicking with wording is criminal!!!

they become illegal???? Hello, CRIMINAL!!! No excuses.

There is no Twinkie defense.

If my focus is on Mexico it's because of my close proximity living in SoCal.....only natural. See, I'm not concerned how they get her....just the fact that they do. Save your percentages of runners to hiding in Trojan horses. I don't give a crap how it's done. If they are here and they are here without the proper papers or expired papers or perm papers or whatever........they are breaking the law and they need to leave.

 

[trplnkl]

Moreluck,

This would be true if it were correct. The fact is that only 11% of illegal immigrants come here illegally.

The rest come here LEGALLY then become illegal. It is not a crime to come here LEGALLY.

The millions that are here didnt run across a hot steamy desert.

The flew in or bused in while in air conditioning. Some simply drove across our border checkpoints.

Your focus on the border on the south is mis guided at best.

Youre "told" to focus on it, because thats what your party tells you to focus on.

Name ONE republican who has given you the immigration numbers ive given you?

They have the same access to the data, yet, because they want you to focus on mexicans, they point you to the south.

Why are you not concerned with the 89% of illegal immigration? Its the bigger number, why are you directing your energy at the 11% and to be more specific, why are you focusing on the 3.666 % of the problem?

Dont you think that really sez something about your intentions?

Mexicans.

Mexicans running across the desert =3.666%,
all other illegal immigration = 96.334%

This thinking is a bit backwards.

You worry about "free money, healthcare, schools" and the like for the 3.666% but the other 96.334% goes on without discussion.

Do you seriously believe that if you stopped the 3.666% all your immigration problems would be solved?

Please try to understand the immigration problem the way it really is vs. the way a political party wants you to understand it.

We could build a wall 20 feet high from texas to california and you wouldnt make a dent in the immigration problem.

I hope you would realize that.

Peace.

According to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security, the countries of origin for the largest numbers of illegal immigrants are as follows:
For 2009[15]
Country of origin Raw number Percent of total Percent change 2000 to 2009
Mexico 6,650,000 62 42%
El Salvador 530,000 5 25%
Guatemala 480,000 4 65%
Honduras 320,000 3 95%
Philippines 270,000 2 33%
India 200,000 2 64%
Korea 200,000 2 14% Other (balance) 2,145,000 20

according to the LA Times...cali has 2.6 million illegals (no designation of origin) that's more than just a few.

 

[av8torntn]

AND it's definitely not victimless because money for help goes to illegals instead of an American who might need it.

Well yes if you believe in living in a welfare state, which I do not, that would be true. In every case for a large, overly intrusive government to survive they must maintain strict controls on who lives within the borders and maintain strict controls on the value and how money flows in the economy.