Atheists

[Jones]

I think you are pigeon holing Christians a bit. There are quite a few of us who are pretty moderate. You know, not all Christians are Jerry Falwell the same way not all Muslims are Al-Quaida.

I'm not pigeon holing christians at all, I know that you're a decent person and I'm sure that upsmule is as well. I'm pointing out that if the bible is the inerrant word of god, he's got a lot of explaining to do and a lot of apologies to make.

 

[wkmac]

I'm not pigeon holing christians at all, I know that you're a decent person and I'm sure that upsmule is as well. I'm pointing out that if the bible is the inerrant word of god, he's got a lot of explaining to do and a lot of apologies to make.

I'll even add that bbsam at least asserts a bit more healthy view of faith but it's still based on a document with a lot of bad mixed in. So much of christianity wants to do the cafeteria thing with the bible when it becomes an Inconvenient Truth!

 

[Upsmule]

I think you are pigeon holing Christians a bit. There are quite a few of us who are pretty moderate. You know, not all Christians are Jerry Falwell the same way not all Muslims are Al-Quaida.

I'm not pigeon holing christians at all, I know that you're a decent person and I'm sure that upsmule is as well. I'm pointing out that if the bible is the inerrant word of god, he's got a lot of explaining to do and a lot of apologies to make.

The bible as we now know it is hardly inerrant. Any honest scholar as well as educated Christian knows this. To my knowledge its the Muslim faith that claims their book to be "perfect" and this no translation can therefore be correct.

 

[Upsmule]

The first translation into English was the King James Version. It was revised some 4 times before the final and current version we know today.

 

[bbsam]

The bible as we now know it is hardly inerrant. Any honest scholar as well as educated Christian knows this. To my knowledge its the Muslim faith that claims their book to be "perfect" and this no translation can therefore be correct.

I think you should talk to a hundred Muslims and see if that's the feeling you come away with.

 

[bbsam]

That's Jesus summarizing the 10 commandments in Exodus 20. Love god, commandments 1 through 4 and love you neighbor, commandments 5 through 10. So Jesus is using the OT just as he also said in Matthew 5 when he said "think not that I have come to destroy the law."

Jones question I can see for any christian is uncomfortable but it's a legit question. If the law still exists, if we still quote it and assert it even in the new testament then again, Jones question is valid.

Also add that there's a difference between temple law and the custom/moral law and it's the temple law from the christian perspective that has ended. Now is the prohibition on gays a temple law and if so, it's gone so..........

I don't find it uncomfortable at all. Jesus knew the law. The whore deserved to die. He knew the law and yet had his followers breaking the Sabbath. He understood full well the laws on cleanliness and yet ate with lepers. So his commandments were far more than a summation of Hebraic law. They were and are an invitation to the human intellect and soul to explore the good and compassionate possibilities. Or maybe Christ himself felt over burdened by the law and chose cafeteria religion as well.

 

[Jones]

The bible as we now know it is hardly inerrant. Any honest scholar as well as educated Christian knows this. To my knowledge its the Muslim faith that claims their book to be "perfect" and this no translation can therefore be correct.

The doctrine of Biblical inerrancy is pretty common in evangelical and fundamentalist circles. If you personally don't subscribe to it that's fine, but it means that you're picking and choosing based on what you agree with.

 

[Upsmule]

John 1:1-5, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."

And verse 14 one of my fav's...."The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

Matthew 15:17-18...."Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished."

John 19:39...."IT IS FINISHED!"

 

[Upsmule]

The bible as we now know it is hardly inerrant. Any honest scholar as well as educated Christian knows this. To my knowledge its the Muslim faith that claims their book to be "perfect" and this no translation can therefore be correct.

The doctrine of Biblical inerrancy is pretty common in evangelical and fundamentalist circles. If you personally don't subscribe to it that's fine, but it means that you're picking and choosing based on what you agree with.

Hardly. I agree with every word. But every word in its entire context.

 

[oldngray]

The first translation into English was the King James Version. It was revised some 4 times before the final and current version we know today.

The first English Bible was the Wycliffe Bible, then the Tyndale which was the primary basis for the original King James, which was revised several times. In my opinion the important thing is the accuracy relating to the original texts which were mostly in Greek and Hebrew with some Aramaic. How many times it is translated is not important as long as it remains faithful to the original texts.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

How many times it is translated is not important as long as it remains faithful to the original texts.

"There was something lost in the translation..."

 

[oldngray]

"There was something lost in the translation..."

Comparing old and more recent translations shows amazingly few changes over centuries.

 

[Upsmule]

The first translation into English was the King James Version. It was revised some 4 times before the final and current version we know today.

The first English Bible was the Wycliffe Bible, then the Tyndale which was the primary basis for the original King James, which was revised several times. In my opinion the important thing is the accuracy relating to the original texts which were mostly in Greek and Hebrew with some Aramaic. How many times it is translated is not important as long as it remains faithful to the original texts.

Exactly.

 

[BrownArmy]

Christianity is the best business model going.

There were multiple 'Jesuses' back in the day.

There were about forty different versions of 'Christianity' back in the day.

The Book y'all are reading was written/compiled/edited by the winning version, almost 300 years later...and edited again by a fat king who wanted to divorce his wife (at least he had the nads to translate it into a language the people understood; he still sucked).

It doesn't bother you that you're quoting a translation of a translation of a translation of a reorganized version of a reordered text?

I think Jesus is awesome (I'm not being facetious)...his message of Love was unprecedented...at least how it's 'written'.

Unless someone else wrote that...Paul?

Jesus (the actual historical figure), didn't give a friend about 'everyone', and definitely not 'the entirety of God's kingdom'.

He didn't care about the plow, he was talking the sword, that's not just a metaphor.

All the shizzola y'all are quoting was written centuries past Jesus' death.

One 'Prophet' among many...

Like I said, Paul found the business model and turned a rag-tag 'religion' into the dominant RELIGION of our day, thousands of years later.

Hire that guy for BD...

 

[Upsmule]

Christianity is the best business model going.

There were multiple 'Jesuses' back in the day.

There were about forty different versions of 'Christianity' back in the day.

The Book y'all are reading was written/compiled/edited by the winning version, almost 300 years later...and edited again by a fat king who wanted to divorce his wife (at least he had the nads to translate it into a language the people understood; he still sucked).

It doesn't bother you that you're quoting a translation of a translation of a translation of a reorganized version of a reordered text?

I think Jesus is awesome (I'm not being facetious)...his message of Love was unprecedented...at least how it's 'written'.

Unless someone else wrote that...Paul?

Jesus (the actual historical figure), didn't give a friend about 'everyone', and definitely not 'the entirety of God's kingdom'.

He didn't care about the plow, he was talking the sword, that's not just a metaphor.

All the shizzola y'all are quoting was written centuries past Jesus' death.

One 'Prophet' among many...

Like I said, Paul found the business model and turned a rag-tag 'religion' into the dominant RELIGION of our day, thousands of years later.

Hire that guy for BD...

But only one empty tomb.

 

[bbsam]

But only one empty tomb.

not sure about that.

 

[wkmac]

John 19:39...."IT IS FINISHED!"

John 19:39 concerns Nicodemus going to the tomb of Jesus to apply oil and myrrh. Verse 30 is the verse you speak of.

John 19:28-30

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” [SUP]29 [/SUP]A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. [SUP]30 [/SUP]When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

And since we are there and the conversation is on the bible itself, what does the other 3 gospels say. I'm using the NIV Bible but you can use any you like. One good internet source is BibleGateway that has a good pick list of numerous translations to reference and cross reference. Since John was already quoted and was the last gospel written, I'll start with the first gospel written in Mark and then in order of writing follow with Matthew and Luke and get their description of the same scene and moment.

Mark 15:33-37

[SUP]33 [/SUP]At noon, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon. [SUP]34 [/SUP]And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]35 [/SUP]When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elijah.”
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Someone ran, filled a sponge with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to take him down,” he said.
[SUP]37 [/SUP]With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

Matthew 27:45-50

[SUP]45 [/SUP]From noon until three in the afternoon darkness came over all the land. [SUP]46 [/SUP]About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,[SUP][c][/SUP] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[SUP][d][/SUP]
[SUP]47 [/SUP]When some of those standing there heard this, they said, “He’s calling Elijah.”
[SUP]48 [/SUP]Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with wine vinegar, put it on a staff, and offered it to Jesus to drink. [SUP]49 [/SUP]The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elijah comes to save him.”
[SUP]50 [/SUP]And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

Luke23:44-46

[SUP]44 [/SUP]It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, [SUP]45 [/SUP]for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. [SUP]46 [/SUP]Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.”[SUP][e][/SUP] When he had said this, he breathed his last.

But only one empty tomb.

Since you brought it up, let's consider the texts from the 4 gospels of that moment and see what is said. This time we'll start with Mark and conclude with John following the order in which the gospels were written.

Mark 16:1-8

16 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb [SUP]3 [/SUP]and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. [SUP]5 [/SUP]As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]“Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. [SUP]7 [/SUP]But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.[SUP][a][/SUP]

Matthew 28:1-10

28 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. [SUP]3 [/SUP]His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. [SUP]4 [/SUP]The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]The angel said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. [SUP]6 [/SUP]He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me.”

Luke 24:1-12

24 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. [SUP]2 [/SUP]They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, [SUP]3 [/SUP]but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. [SUP]4 [/SUP]While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. [SUP]5 [/SUP]In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? [SUP]6 [/SUP]He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: [SUP]7 [/SUP]‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ” [SUP]8 [/SUP]Then they remembered his words.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. [SUP]10 [/SUP]It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. [SUP]11 [/SUP]But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.

John 20:1-10

20 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. [SUP]2 [/SUP]So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”
[SUP]3 [/SUP]So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. [SUP]5 [/SUP]He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, [SUP]7 [/SUP]as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. [SUP]9 [/SUP](They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.) [SUP]10 [/SUP]Then the disciples went back to where they were staying.

 

[Upsmule]

"All the shizzola y'all are quoting was written centuries past Jesus' death"
​

Any honest scholar agrees that the only texts written centuries after Jesus' death are commonly referred to as the gnostic texts. (Not gnostic gospels btw). And I get it...honest I do, one could easily negate Matthew Mark Luke and John and all of the things they supposedly saw and wrote down, or even the things a former Christian torturer/Pharisee, turned convert and Missionary saw did and recorded. But something obviously big happened back then. Big enough to have us all even to this day tell keep time by it "In the year of our Lord 2013 AD." Either this one of many christ's was who he said he was, and came out of the grave on the third day like he said he would.....then proceeded to reveal himself to those who then went out and spread the word....or he didn't. There can be no middle ground on this one.

Again, there's no proof obviously. But plenty of evidence to honestly weigh. For one, think of the role of women in that day and culture. They couldn't even testify in a court of law, yet these "rag tag" fishermen decided to fool the world by having WOMEN be the ones to first discover an empty tomb on the third day while they cowered hiding in a locked room fearing they'd be killed next. This should show to anyone with an open mind that, the gospel writers were faithful to record what really happened, even if it was painfully embarrassing. Then....even more amazing to me is, these rag tag unlearned fisherman turned an entire empire upside down. Yeah, some might face torture and being vilified and die cruel cruel horrendous deaths for what they believed to be true...but its more than ridiculous that they or anyone would be willing to go through such tortuous deaths for a known lie?

 

[Upsmule]

"at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." Deuteronomy 19:15

The gospels not only have 3 but a 4th. A 5th if you count the epistles. Obviously they aren't word for word exact accounts of what each individual saw. They are written accounts of the same events in each individuals own words. Whats your point here, wkmac?

 

[wkmac]

"at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established." Deuteronomy 19:15

The gospels not only have 3 but a 4th. A 5th if you count the epistles. Obviously they aren't word for word exact accounts of what each individual saw. They are written accounts of the same events in each individuals own words. Whats your point here, wkmac?

You like quoting scripture so much, thought I'd just follow your lead. Why are you getting so worked up? What are you seeing that causes this? Is there something in the texts that seems problematic? You guys earlier were upset that full context wasn't being given so now that full context is, you are still upset? I said nothing negative, offered no word of question or doubt. I just posted the texts and let them speak for themselves.