Contract Change proposals. "On Topic Only Please"

[Frankie's Friend]

Geezus that's so obtuse and without any critical thinking that it's pathetic.

All parties involved friend-ing know, understand and acknowledge that people are buying all their chit online and in turn forcing all delivery service companies to now run a six day operation with a 24 hour / 7 day a week operation for FedEx, ups and the post office being just around the corner.

Again , we all know that this in turn means that UPS will have to have SOMEONE working on the weekend to deliver the packages. No friend-ing chit Sherlock.

And yes; hardly any rpcd wants to work on the weekend...
So you think this means that the only solution is to hire a "combo" driver who will...

---work weekends,
---have absurd and/or SHIFTING work times during the week,
---NOT have 9.5 protection
---could actually be fired anytime for technology once he's making enough money in progression.
( all they would have to do is put him in the hub preloading or sorting and ding him on misloads or missed scans and hes gone because guess what; he's not actually driving at that moment , is he? So the discipline through technology could stick ).

And for all this cow manure he/she has to put up with he gets
Rewarded , I said friend-ING R-E-W-A-R-D-E-D with at e very least, a $6.00 an hour decrease in pay ! I mean that's just flipping brilliant.

Here's a quick thought off the top of my head:

How about the company just hires more regular friggain package car drivers and pays them equal pay to the existing package car drivers. You see, everything here at UPS goes by seniority if you weren't aware. Soooooo, stay with me here Gomer. The newest and less senior drivers in my scenario have to drive on the weekends. It's that friggain simple.

Oh , you say " but they don't want to work on weekends because they are RPCD". And in turn I say " too bad" ; every single driver that's come up through this company has had to work a sub-optimal condition when first starting out. They've either had to be a cover driver or work a weekend day or " wait by the phone" hoping there's enough work for them this week etc. etc. etc.

Why should is situation be any different. If you're a low seniority driver you may have to accept a bid that involved a Saturday or Sunday or both , until you earn enough seniority to bid a mon-Friday route !

It's not that hard to figure out. You act like an RPCD who's extremely low on the totem pole would be allowed to just say
" I don't want to work the weekend so I won't ! "

They don't have that choice. Seniority rules. They get forced to work it but they get the absolute same pay. If our leadership and the company had any morals they would actually maybe even pay them a small premium for working chitty weekends. But NOOOooo; they actually want to CUT their pay . Unbelievable!

FACT!
Of course, this is the fix from the ibt nma negotiators.
And ol @Tony Q supports this.

But was this a trade off issue to enhance pensions?

We're seeing this from the bottom so as a stand alone issue it sucks but if it was a trade off to better other issues it may make more sense.

We dont have that info and if transparency was prevalent the outrage maybe would abate somewhat...

Just my opinion.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

But was this a trade off issue to enhance pensions?

We're seeing this from the bottom so as a stand alone issue it sucks but if it was a trade off to better other issues it may make more sense.

All of the (minority) belligerent vote no people's continued response is:


The company made $5 billion last year.

And that's their whole argument.


They fail to realize.... the company is entitled to receive benefits from the contract also.

It's not a one sided deal.

We dont have that info and if transparency was prevalent the outrage maybe would abate somewhat...

I totally get that.

But, they released one article.... and the internet almost shut down.

People shouldn't expect so much immediate gratification.



-Bug-

 

[Doubleparkedrunner]

All this talk about looking out for your future brothers and sisters, and yet you want to make low-seniority drivers do the crappy shifts you don’t want to do, and justify it with overtime pay? Those drivers get paid less than top pay because they’re still in progression, and when they get out of progression, they’ll move into M-friend shifts ASAP, which will force more low-seniority drivers into those spots. You’re not fixing any problems with this solution, since 22.4s will get top rate for them soon enough, and overtime over 8, so they’ll make the same amount if not more (or posssibly SLIGHTLY less) than a RPCD would working that shift, while also getting to work inside some doing easier-than-RPCD work. Obtuse? No critical thinking? I don’t think so. 22.4 makes sense, and it makes sense the way it is.

Who else but the lower seniority drivers should do the weekend work? Of course they should as all the ones that came before them had slim pickings of what route or days or hours they could work when first starting out. That is simply a given.

Your solution is 22.4
---My solution is more RPCDs

They BOTH start from the bottom up BUT...

Your solution pays them considerably less
My solution pays them the same

Progression is here to stay and will only get worse some day down the road. And so it will also go with the 22.4 position. It will only get worse for them.
( and it's already terrible to start ! )
If you think 22.4s will actually do a basic split shift of inside / outside work then I've got a bridge to sell you. They will drive, drive , and drive some more.
They will driving as much , if not more than an RPCD and will get less money with no protections.

Also I don't know where you get your gorilla math but 22.4s will never get MoRE pay than RPCDs. And they almost positively will never receive equal pay in the future either. Sine they will get paid less per hour they naturally will only make more money than a RPCD if they work more hours. And ohhh , they will be doing that, that's for sure.

--- Preload report time 3:30 A.M.
--- wrap it up at about 9:00 A.M.
--- Suit up like batman sliding down the pole
( in before indecision remark ! )
--- Deliver on road until 5:30 P.M.
--- grab some macdonalds on way home cuz you didn't have time to eat all day and still don't have time to do so on way home either because you need to get home for 6:00 , run through your shower like your a six year old in the summer running through a sprinkler system for fun.
All this so you can get to bed by 7:00 P.M.
... to get eight hours sleep all so you can
" Groundhog Day " it all over again tomorrow ....
and the day after that and so on.

Ya, Where do I fing sign up?
Please do tell.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

Ya, Where do I fing sign up?
Please do tell.

If you don't want the job.... don't bid it.

Progression is here to stay and will only get worse some day down the road.

There has always been some sort of progression.

All the way back into the 60's....

 

[Doubleparkedrunner]

FACT!
Of course, this is the fix from the ibt nma negotiators.
And ol @Tony Q supports this.

But was this a trade off issue to enhance pensions?

We're seeing this from the bottom so as a stand alone issue it sucks but if it was a trade off to better other issues it may make more sense.

We dont have that info and if transparency was prevalent the outrage maybe would abate somewhat...

Just my opinion.

Fair point sir. I agree.
I think the problem is that UPS has done nothing to earn any trust whatsoever in upholding their end of ANY contract ever !

If they would actually follow a contract in good faith without severe and blatant manipulation then I think the basic premise of 22.4 would actually make sense. ( even with them getting paid less ) ...
Because if UPS was ever acting in a morally , good faith position the 22.4 would absolutely get to bump up to an RPCD position in due time while working a decent true combo job and not getting abused.

But I would imagine even the most ardent UPS or union leadership defenders would have a hard time saying they think that will happen with a straight face !

 

[Doubleparkedrunner]

If you don't want the job.... don't bid it.





There has always been some sort of progression.

All the way back into the 60's....

Great solution. Never thought of that. Probably never thought of it ( <<<sarcasm alert ) because i was one of the " fortunate " ones to qualify before this crap came down the road. 22.4s theoretically won't hurt me and probably will actually help me as I'm not in the pro OT group , personally. So this contract basically is decent to good for me.
These guys can vote yes all they want. The needle won't move much for me going forwrad as far as contract " perks".
I just don't understand how anyone can not see the writing on the wall. It's baffling to me.

 

[Doubleparkedrunner]

If you don't want the job.... don't bid it.





There has always been some sort of progression.

All the way back into the 60's....

I'm just guessing but I'm sure the " early progression " you speak of was a sort of breaking in pay scale for a much shorter period of time. One in which I would not equate with a scale that pays people in the early stages of progression between 50 and 55% of the top scale guys doing the same work as them.

I absolutely could be wrong but my instinct tells me in the sixties and seventies , At a minimum, this progression you speak of was probably " just a top slice off of top pay " , not a gross disparity between people doing basically the same work if not more.

 

[What'dyabringmetoday???]

All of the (minority) belligerent vote no people's continued response is:


The company made $5 billion last year.

And that's their whole argument.


They fail to realize.... the company is entitled to receive benefits from the contract also.

It's not a one sided deal.





I totally get that.

But, they released one article.... and the internet almost shut down.

People shouldn't expect so much immediate gratification.



-Bug-

Would you be willing to point out what "benefits" the hourly people will receive with this "agreement "?

 

[BigUnionGuy]

Would you be willing to point out what "benefits" the hourly people will receive with this "agreement "?

Until we see the "totality" of the agreement (meaning the supplements and local riders)

It's a waste of time to speculate.


The Master language, is only part of the contract.

As I said previously.... I have a few concerns myself, that need clarification.


People, just need to relax.

There are too many wild, uniformed opinions at this point.



-Bug-

 

[Frankie's Friend]

All of the (minority) belligerent vote no people's continued response is:


The company made $5 billion last year.

And that's their whole argument.


They fail to realize.... the company is entitled to receive benefits from the contract also.

It's not a one sided deal.





I totally get that.

But, they released one article.... and the internet almost shut down.

People shouldn't expect so much immediate gratification.



-Bug-

Knee jerk syndrome is easy after the last cba but I kinda saw it was immature when the dust settled (some).

Fight for what you believe is the best for everyone is and has been my motto.

The company made 10 billion last year not 5 and spent a bunch of the difference on technology to automate hubs to reduce the bargaining unit.

Right now I and many others believe the company has no problem swinging the scalpel any way that grows the stock so therefore the response from the hourly is hair trigger.

Just my opinion.

 

[Hazard]

Who else but the lower seniority drivers should do the weekend work? Of course they should as all the ones that came before them had slim pickings of what route or days or hours they could work when first starting out. That is simply a given.

Your solution is 22.4
---My solution is more RPCDs

They BOTH start from the bottom up BUT...

Your solution pays them considerably less
My solution pays them the same

Progression is here to stay and will only get worse some day down the road. And so it will also go with the 22.4 position. It will only get worse for them.
( and it's already terrible to start ! )
If you think 22.4s will actually do a basic split shift of inside / outside work then I've got a bridge to sell you. They will drive, drive , and drive some more.
They will driving as much , if not more than an RPCD and will get less money with no protections.

Also I don't know where you get your gorilla math but 22.4s will never get MoRE pay than RPCDs. And they almost positively will never receive equal pay in the future either. Sine they will get paid less per hour they naturally will only make more money than a RPCD if they work more hours. And ohhh , they will be doing that, that's for sure.

--- Preload report time 3:30 A.M.
--- wrap it up at about 9:00 A.M.
--- Suit up like batman sliding down the pole
( in before indecision remark ! )
--- Deliver on road until 5:30 P.M.
--- grab some macdonalds on way home cuz you didn't have time to eat all day and still don't have time to do so on way home either because you need to get home for 6:00 , run through your shower like your a six year old in the summer running through a sprinkler system for fun.
All this so you can get to bed by 7:00 P.M.
... to get eight hours sleep all so you can
" Groundhog Day " it all over again tomorrow ....
and the day after that and so on.

Ya, Where do I fing sign up?
Please do tell.

Does the contract allow 22.4's to come in at around 9am and then do local sort?

 

[Dollar Chasing]

Does the contract allow 22.4's to come in at around 9am and then do local sort?

Yes. This guy and a lot of others are all doom and gloom about the 22.4 position, like the company is going to work them 12-13 hours a day, and that they’re going to be driving as much as RPCDs.

 

[brown_trousers]

Obviously a lot of discontented viewpoints regarding the TA.

I suggest that instead of just saying it is garbage and voting no, that you actually come of with some alternatives to the language that might work in further negotiations.

You may actually have the opportunity to present ideas to language change.

Caution, use the language that is already on the table because remember there is a handshake agreement across the table and the language is eventually going to be close to this. Stay close to the language or you will just be viewed as a malcontent.

Are you just a malcontent?

If you are, my suggestion for the overall good is you just remain silent.

Malcontents make people who believe in the Union process look bad. That is one of the reasons unions don't garner the support in this country as they once did.

Example of TA language changes suggestion: the TA reads

Article 22.4(b)

1. All 22.4 combination drivers shall be guaranteed eight (8) consecutive hours of straight time pay per day, if reporting as scheduled. All 22.4 combination drivers shall work a five (5) consecutive day schedule of Tuesday through Saturday or Wednesday through Sunday. This paragraph shall supersede any Supplement, Rider, or Addendum on the same subject.
   
   I believe this should be changed to this:(change in bold)
   
   Article 22.4(b)
   
   5. All 22.4 combination drivers shall be guaranteed eight (8) consecutive hours of straight time pay per day, if reporting as scheduled. All 22.4 combination drivers shall work a five (5) consecutive day schedule of Tuesday through Saturday or Sunday through Thursday This paragraph shall supersede any Supplement, Rider, or Addendum on the same subject.
   
   I

My suggestion;
22.4 workers should be split wage. paid combo wage for inside work and FT driver wage for driving work PLUS differential pay for working a less than desireable weekly schedule, Like $1 extra an hour.

 

[Tony Q]

All of the (minority) belligerent vote no people's continued response is:


The company made $5 billion last year.

And that's their whole argument.


They fail to realize.... the company is entitled to receive benefits from the contract also.

It's not a one sided deal.





I totally get that.

But, they released one article.... and the internet almost shut down.

People shouldn't expect so much immediate gratification.



-Bug-

But her emails

 

[eats packages]

Yes. This guy and a lot of others are all doom and gloom about the 22.4 position, like the company is going to work them 12-13 hours a day, and that they’re going to be driving as much as RPCDs.

It's capitalism bro, 22.4 has cheaper labor costs and are more flexible in all circumstances EXCEPT inside work. If UPS as a company currently runs over half of it's drivers past 11 hours each day, then the status-quo assumption is that 22.4 will run over 11 hours each day.

My suggestion;
22.4 workers should be split wage. paid combo wage for inside work and FT driver wage for driving work PLUS differential pay for working a less than desireable weekly schedule, Like $1 extra an hour.

This change alone would fix the relative incentive to have 22.4 working long hours.
Now 22.4 has an equal labor cost as package car and an equal labor cost as 22.3 inside. No reason to run them out later than the other classifications.

 

[no_map_needed]

Yes. This guy and a lot of others are all doom and gloom about the 22.4 position, like the company is going to work them 12-13 hours a day, and that they’re going to be driving as much as RPCDs.

Negative. The company is not going to pay someone that much to sort you're out of your mind. Also, there is no language like that. To make close to driver rate sorting you need something like 25+ years seniority as a 22.3.