Corp Marketing Layoffs

[constructively dissatisfi]

Don't lose sight of the big picture on this. Anyone who's had any experience with the Corporate Office can't deny that it's totally bloated. There are MANY people doing jobs that don't need to be done. Most of them are good, capable people, but they don't get to choose what they're assigned to work on. The real culprits in this whole mess are the people who were on the Management Committee 15 or 20 years ago. They're the ones who took the SMALL Corp Office from Connecticut and turned it into the MASSIVE Corp Office in Atlanta. During the 90s they were hiring and promoting more people than they knew what to do with. The way for someone to get ahead back then was to hire themselves a little empire. friend&A and BD/Marketing were by far the most notorious for this. Now the true guilty people are long gone living fat on their IPO killing. Their minions are running the show. There is no question that the Corp Office needs a real good flush. The problem is that most of the people who really deserve to be flushed are the ones deciding who's actually going to get the axe. In the long term it's good that the swamp is being drained. But it's still terrible that a lot of good, hard working, capable and innocent people will be the victims and most of those who had a hand in causing the mess will probably still be around. If Jim Casey wasn't spinning in his grave while this debacle was being created over the past 20 years he surely is because of the way it's being handled now.

 

[NHDRVR]

Our GO in NH is not a huge building and I know it doesn't have that many people working out of it. (I used to deliver it) My question is, how big is the GO in Atlanta, for instance...Or a better question would be, what is the ratio of managment/hourly...

 

[Cezanne]

Our GO in NH is not a huge building and I know it doesn't have that many people working out of it. (I used to deliver it) My question is, how big is the GO in Atlanta, for instance...Or a better question would be, what is the ratio of managment/hourly...

I would imagine that would be all management and probadly very big and well maintained. Gold toliets, travetine marble and the such. Read the Doctor Seuss book "Yertle the Turtle" it would give you a heads up and how it is operating.....

 

[constructively dissatisfi]

Our GO in NH is not a huge building and I know it doesn't have that many people working out of it. (I used to deliver it) My question is, how big is the GO in Atlanta, for instance...Or a better question would be, what is the ratio of managment/hourly...

There are probably 2-3,000 people working at Corporate. Very few are hourly. Most are management and some are salaried non-management.

 

[pretzel_man]

I hate to chime in and validate a rumor that may not be true but I would not totally be surprised. The partnership legacy is gone. I think the future holds more performance based discharges.

Tie,

Yes, the rumors are true.... Personally, I do not think the legacy is gone, just different. In my mind the change is due to the lack of growth and the current competition that wasn't there before.

When I started, UPS was your Dad (or Uncle). We were growing and the unwritten rule was that if you were honest and didn't screw up too bad, we would find a place for you. That was always the joke about how people got assigned to Feeder or some preload.

Also back then, we trained our own people in every function. I don't have an IE degree, but UPS taught me IE and I did that work for 15 years. The same was true of HR, Sales, Marketing, etc.

Those inefficiencies were hidden by our growth. That hid many, many sins. Then in the mid 90's we learned that we were bloated and losing volume to our competitors. We started cutting overhead. Remember all the reassessments that took place to cut staffing?

Today, competition is even tougher, and growth is even less. We are no longer the low cost provider and the competition has a much lower cost structure. We are now the market leader with the target on our back....

We have complained that Marketing has not done a great job. We have complained that sales has been ineffective. It looks like the management committee has decided to take tough action because we can no longer afford these inefficiencies.

Did they need to escort them out? I don't think that's fair, but.... Did we want to risk them taking proprietary information with them? They have access to lots of UPS info the rest of us do not have.

Finally.... I agree that there will be more performance based dismissals. Without growth, can we afford less than stellar performance?

I realize that I may be the last of a dying breed. I still teach partnership to my people. I still do policy book readings. I still act as a partner to those I work with.

My intent is to pass the legacy to the next generation as it was passed to me. I think it will be up to them (and us?) to keep it alive....

P-Man

 

[pretzel_man]

Don't lose sight of the big picture on this. Anyone who's had any experience with the Corporate Office can't deny that it's totally bloated. There are MANY people doing jobs that don't need to be done. Most of them are good, capable people, but they don't get to choose what they're assigned to work on. The real culprits in this whole mess are the people who were on the Management Committee 15 or 20 years ago. They're the ones who took the SMALL Corp Office from Connecticut and turned it into the MASSIVE Corp Office in Atlanta. During the 90s they were hiring and promoting more people than they knew what to do with. The way for someone to get ahead back then was to hire themselves a little empire. friend&A and BD/Marketing were by far the most notorious for this. Now the true guilty people are long gone living fat on their IPO killing. Their minions are running the show. There is no question that the Corp Office needs a real good flush. The problem is that most of the people who really deserve to be flushed are the ones deciding who's actually going to get the axe. In the long term it's good that the swamp is being drained. But it's still terrible that a lot of good, hard working, capable and innocent people will be the victims and most of those who had a hand in causing the mess will probably still be around. If Jim Casey wasn't spinning in his grave while this debacle was being created over the past 20 years he surely is because of the way it's being handled now.

Boiled,

You make some excellent points. The world of difference between the district and corporate is incredible.

The get it done, no excuses, attention to detail culture in the district is part of the UPS legacy. In the old days, the few hundred people in Greenwhich had it much easier, but at least it was only a few hundred and they already paid their dues.

Today, with the thousands in Atlanta (plus the thousands in IS) there are way too many people that don't understand the UPS culture. That fat tail is too often wagging the dog.

I'm sure they are working on some important things, and I know there was a good reason for leaving Greenwhich. I personally heard Oz Nelson say that we can't grow to the organization we want to be living in a small leased office in Ct. To some extent he was right, but the bloat needs to be controlled.

They have reduced corporate overhead, but not enough. They need to get the same work done with less people (maybe work an extra hour a day) and complete more things and attend less meetings.

I know we need Corporate (and IS). I know that they need to be large, but they also need to be efficient just like they expect the district to be.

BTW, you are right that this was caused by those here 15 to 20 years ago. As I said in a previous post, growth hid a lot of sins. We can't afford those sins any more.

P-Man

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

P-man, I was told that one of the reasons for the move from CT to GA was that the cost of housing in GA was (at the time of the move) roughly 1/2 that of CT.

 

[pretzel_man]

P-man, I was told that one of the reasons for the move from CT to GA was that the cost of housing in GA was (at the time of the move) roughly 1/2 that of CT.

Here is the story as I recall... I had a lot of friends in Corporate at the time, and I was on special assignment working for Corporate.

We were a smaller company. I think $20B. I think Oz said we needed go grow to $40B. (he was right on that one). He said that in order to do that, we needed a bigger corporate staff, and therefore a larger corporate office. He also said that the corporate office needed to look like the office of a world class company.

So, the board of directors went out in a stealth mode (seperate planes at different times) to find a new location for the corporate office. I don't know if Greenwhich was a choice for the resons you mention. I think they looked at Atlanta, Baltimore, Cincinnati, and Dallas. There may be others including Greenwhich and NJ but I don't know.

They picked Atlanta. They said it reminded them of Ct. It was cheap housing. Hartsfield Airport had great connections. Other big corporations were also moving there.

In hindsight, was it a great move? I don't know. All of a sudden, lots of people who didn't want to be in Corporate (because of Greenwhich) now wanted to move to Atlanta. Atlanta boomed and now they have lots of traffic and housing is more expensive.

The decision is made and the corporate office is beautiful. Atlanta is now home.

P-Man

 

[IWorkAsDirected]

All of this is interesting, especially in light of the fact that on the Great Basin part of UPSERs.com there is more or less an add for marketing people.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

All of this is interesting, especially in light of the fact that on the Great Basin part of UPSERs.com there is more or less an add for marketing people.

It was discussed earlier in the thread that they are indeed hiring marketing people off the street while laying off current employees.

 

[tieguy]

Tie,

Yes, the rumors are true.... Personally, I do not think the legacy is gone, just different. In my mind the change is due to the lack of growth and the current competition that wasn't there before.

When I started, UPS was your Dad (or Uncle). We were growing and the unwritten rule was that if you were honest and didn't screw up too bad, we would find a place for you. That was always the joke about how people got assigned to Feeder or some preload.

Also back then, we trained our own people in every function. I don't have an IE degree, but UPS taught me IE and I did that work for 15 years. The same was true of HR, Sales, Marketing, etc.

Those inefficiencies were hidden by our growth. That hid many, many sins. Then in the mid 90's we learned that we were bloated and losing volume to our competitors. We started cutting overhead. Remember all the reassessments that took place to cut staffing?

Today, competition is even tougher, and growth is even less. We are no longer the low cost provider and the competition has a much lower cost structure. We are now the market leader with the target on our back....

We have complained that Marketing has not done a great job. We have complained that sales has been ineffective. It looks like the management committee has decided to take tough action because we can no longer afford these inefficiencies.

Did they need to escort them out? I don't think that's fair, but.... Did we want to risk them taking proprietary information with them? They have access to lots of UPS info the rest of us do not have.

Finally.... I agree that there will be more performance based dismissals. Without growth, can we afford less than stellar performance?

I realize that I may be the last of a dying breed. I still teach partnership to my people. I still do policy book readings. I still act as a partner to those I work with.

My intent is to pass the legacy to the next generation as it was passed to me. I think it will be up to them (and us?) to keep it alive....

P-Man

P-man I have no problem with performance based dismissials if they are handled right. Was the plan he failed to achieve realistic. What were the extenuating cirumstances if any. Is the decision clear cut and based on measurable results or subjective.

one item you did not mention about the partnership legacy is that we expected our managers to make decisions. We knew that they would occasionally make the wrong one but we were okay with that as long as the decision was rooted on sound concepts and they did not repeat the mistake. I think the threat of performance based dismissals will lead to our managing more conservatively. Our grass roots management will refer more decisions to their boss who in turn will bump it up further. CYA management is becoming a way of life. If a divison manager has to be involved in so many decisions then he becomes the supervisor in a sense and becomes less effective as a divison manager.

 

[pretzel_man]

P-man I have no problem with performance based dismissials if they are handled right. Was the plan he failed to achieve realistic. What were the extenuating cirumstances if any. Is the decision clear cut and based on measurable results or subjective.

one item you did not mention about the partnership legacy is that we expected our managers to make decisions. We knew that they would occasionally make the wrong one but we were okay with that as long as the decision was rooted on sound concepts and they did not repeat the mistake. I think the threat of performance based dismissals will lead to our managing more conservatively. Our grass roots management will refer more decisions to their boss who in turn will bump it up further. CYA management is becoming a way of life. If a divison manager has to be involved in so many decisions then he becomes the supervisor in a sense and becomes less effective as a divison manager.

Tie,

The rumor I heard (Unsubstantiated, but from a reliable source) is that these people didn't pass a marketing assessment test. Again, I may be wrong, but I heard that they were given tests to see their competency....

Yes, at the same time we are hiring off the street. I know, this sits poorly with me too. I guess this is part of a plan to upgrade the marketing / sales departments. I think we all agree that its needed.

In my previous post I alluded to the fact that we trained our own people for skilled jobs. I heard that we took people that were not qualified to do a marketing job and gave it to them, thinking we will turn them into Marketeers.

Anyway, that's what I heard, right or wrong. I also understand that if I were given an IE test I would have failed....

As I said, growth can no longer hide our sins. However, I believe good decisions will still be rewarded.

P-Man

 

[hangin455]

Tie,

The rumor I heard (Unsubstantiated, but from a reliable source) is that these people didn't pass a marketing assessment test. Again, I may be wrong, but I heard that they were given tests to see their competency....

Yes, at the same time we are hiring off the street. I know, this sits poorly with me too. I guess this is part of a plan to upgrade the marketing / sales departments. I think we all agree that its needed.

In my previous post I alluded to the fact that we trained our own people for skilled jobs. I heard that we took people that were not qualified to do a marketing job and gave it to them, thinking we will turn them into Marketeers.

Anyway, that's what I heard, right or wrong. I also understand that if I were given an IE test I would have failed....

As I said, growth can no longer hide our sins. However, I believe good decisions will still be rewarded.

P-Man

Wonder if these people were let go so we could hire people at a much lower rate then they were making?
If this is true than no one with any kind of experience is safe.

 

[beentheredonethat]

I hate to chime in and validate a rumor that may not be true but I would not totally be surprised. The partnership legacy is gone. I think the future holds more performance based discharges.

I wouldn't mind performance based discharges so much, if we had goals that at least were given to us at the beginning of the year. Somehow, Jan 1st sneaks up on us each year, and they don't give us goals. One year, it took til Feb before I got my goals for the prior year!!!! Two years ago, was my best year, I got my goals on Mar 1st for the current year. So far this year, no goals. A buddy of mine in a similar group just had his goals changed by his boss for last year about 2 weeks ago. He went from being a good performer on his prior QPR, to being a low performer on the new QPR he got after the year was over. To me that's incompetence of the mgmt team we work for. But those same people who can't decide what the goal is, could decide we didn't make the goal they didn't set timely...

 

[NHDRVR]

I wouldn't mind performance based discharges so much, if we had goals that at least were given to us at the beginning of the year. Somehow, Jan 1st sneaks up on us each year, and they don't give us goals. One year, it took til Feb before I got my goals for the prior year!!!! Two years ago, was my best year, I got my goals on Mar 1st for the current year. So far this year, no goals. A buddy of mine in a similar group just had his goals changed by his boss for last year about 2 weeks ago. He went from being a good performer on his prior QPR, to being a low performer on the new QPR he got after the year was over. To me that's incompetence of the mgmt team we work for. But those same people who can't decide what the goal is, could decide we didn't make the goal they didn't set timely...

The only problem with the performance based discharge is that, IMO, is that they are not measured equally across the board. I don't trust that they are measured accurately for management. And this is coming from a driver... Hell, the standards certainly aren't measured appropriately for us...

 

[hudson]

The more and more I read Soupy Sales' posts, the more and more he reminds me of my centers BD/Sales Rep. As condescending as the day is long, expecting the drivers to drum up sales leads (and yes, they are our front line and put a face and a personality to the trucks and uniforms), promising customers whose accounts had been suspended and paid that very afternoon that the driver will go by and pick them up right away and calls me in the office and then whines to my Center Manager when I tell him I can't do it because it's 5pm and the driver is already on his way in to the meet point with his air pick ups. Oh and let's not forget this urgent customer has air. Seriously? Why do you do this? This is only more frustrating for you, me and the customer. I want to get along with you guys. I truly do. Don't make my job any harder than it already is. I want nothing more than to make your job a cakewalk. But don't come to me at 5 in the afternoon and tell me you settled the account and they need picked up. Bite me. It's not going to happen. And then don't call WHINE at my manager because you don't like me, a lowly Dispatch OMS, telling you something's not going to happen. Just don't tell me at 5pm. I can make it happen at 3. Four is pushing it. Five is just too late.

What you guys up in BD/Sales don't realise is that the drivers have a route to run that includes, but isn't limited to, keeping up with SADR accounts and making sure they're delivered on time, the elite pick up accounts and making sure they're picked up on time. Delivering anywhere from 180-400 pieces, an increased delivery stop count that currently isn't any lighter than 158 stops per car, per day averaged and more frequently reaching over 200 stops on a route that typically only goes out with say 140, never mind a route that never stays the same two days in a row. If it does, they're a lucky one. Most of my drivers routes don't stay the same from one day to the next. It's difficult to keep a smile on your face when most of the time, you don't even know what's in your truck. Take the time out to suit up in browns and spend a week on car with a driver. Go out on a freight route that has 35-50 pick ups. Go spend a day out on the Satellite routes. How about a Resi route or two. Sit in the car with a driver for a week. It may look easy on paper and with a bunch of numbers jumping out at you, but I guarantee you, it's not as easy as it looks. All kinds of fun factors to figure in. You just have to know where to plug in the numbers and the factors and even then you may not have the clearer picture.

Please enlighten me, how am I supposed to convince my drivers to give up service for a scrap of paper that is likely going to sit on your desk until the potential daily pick up account gets frustrated and gives up? We can find other ways to create new business, but let's focus on keeping what we do have and trying to better what we have now.

Where to start..."your" drivers were picking them up before they got suspended...send a message to driver and have them make the pick up...isn't that the drivers job? To make deliveries and pick ups?

Spend a week on car? Your crazy. If the job is too tough for "your" drivers they can quit. No one is forcing them to work at UPS.

Sales leads are done electronically now. No more paper. Every heard of the SLIM website? Rookie...

 

[govols019]

Do you have a reading comprehension problem?

 

[Signature Only]

it's called running a business, to make profit. So...... Mr. Senior Account Executive. I turn in sales leads that never get answered. Our sales rep is known by her accounts as "the pole climber". She dances around in short skirts and heels and never solves their problems. Half a dozen customers have told me they do not want her on their property... (We drivers handle their concerns.) And the other rep... smokes like an poorly tuned diesel, drives his customers crazy because they can't stand their offices smelling like a huge overturned ashtray.

Drivers work hard, very hard, and earn every penny they're paid. Unlike you, we have no place to hide apathy, stupidity, or plain incompetence.

So you work your side of the street, and we'll work ours.




my job isnt to get sales leads, thanks though. that is your job. i really don't give two craps who it sits well with. the people that get pissed off are the exact people that should be making concessions.



no, i sell transportation, and we have 6.1 million daily customers, yeah, they dont all get a visit. we cant afford that many sales people....hmmm, i wonder why?

i am converting business in my account base, not knocking on doors. that's not in my job description.

and you don't think I am a good sales rep? good. I am a Senior Account Executive. you = driver.

 

[constructively dissatisfi]

Yes, at the same time we are hiring off the street. I know, this sits poorly with me too. I guess this is part of a plan to upgrade the marketing / sales departments. I think we all agree that its needed.

P-Man

The marketing dept has been run by an I.E. dinosaur for the past 10 years. And I doubt he was even an Engineer. He probably was just stuck in I.E. at some point. I wonder if he left because he failed the competency test. Too bad it took 10 years. Sales is run by a former Region Mgr, not a sales professional. This would be a very good place to start the upgrade.

 

[10damon]

Thats good, i suppose because you wouldnt last two days as a driver. And no, our job isnt to get sales leads. I dont believe we are called "sales leads provider"