Anonymous 10
Guest
How about the OP share some more info on this situation??
Fired and union did not accurately represent me.
- Thread starter brown0816
- Start date
Crowbar,
There is no need to examine this case any further. The facts are pretty easy to understand. Your points of what the company knew has no bearing on the objective fact of the termination.
I don't feel we know all the facts.
We as hourly employees have to obigations to meet each business day. First, we report to work on time and ready to work or we call out ill for the day. These are requirements for the job.
no argument there, although it does get a bit messy in Feeders but that's another story.
In the event that an employee neither reports to work or calls out ill, this is classified as a "NO CALL NO SHOW". In our contract, you can "NO CALL NO SHOW" 4 times in a row and recieve discipline in the form of a warning letter.
This is not true in my local supplement, is yours the same as the poster?
On the 5th consecutive day, the discipline is a discharge. No questions asked.
again, not true in my supplements
Before the company can discharge the employee on the 5th, they must send out a 48 hour report notice. Once this letter is sent out and its recieved, the employee must report in person regardless of circumstances.
sort of contradicts the "no questions asked" policy in your above point.
If the employee is incarcerated at the time and fails to report, the employee will be terminated on the 5th day.
Its that simple. Job Abandonment = Failure to report. Same thing.
I have heard "job abandonment" kicked around but never language to support it. In fact, we have had cases dropped well before panel that attempted to fire due to "job abandonment". "Gross Negligence" was another one that was regularlycanned
The company has no obligation to track him down, look up his case, calculate his length of incarceration and cover his route in the interim.
Agreed, but he did say he contacted the Company immediately and I would hope he maintained contact as often as possible.
The only time the company would do such a thing would be in the following scenario:
A driver is on route, has a mild heart attack on route and is taken to a hospital leaving his truck until the company could come and retrieve it. The company would then hold the drivers position open until his eventual recovery in the hospital.
This would not be considered job abandonment even if the driver does not report.
This is completely different than this posters story.
I could think of a few center manager's that would proceed with the termination regardless.
This poster failed to comply with a court order and sentence. He allowed the time for completion to expire and ran around in a UPS truck with a bench warrant for his arrest. Who knows how many months he drove around with a warrant for his arrest.
He probably doesn't know. Most people never know they have a warrant until they are stopped by the Police for minor traffic violations (something I can personally attest to). In fact, a warrant can be issued for you without any contact with the Police. How many times have you been at a bar or party when a fight breaks out? Did you leave? What if someone hit somebody as you were driving by and fled the scene, but the eyewitness mistakenly got your license number? All anyone had to do was name you as one of the parties or involved (or have an officer mistakenly note that you were) and charges can be filed without your knowledge. An initial appearance hearing will be scheduled, you will not appear, and now a FTA (Failure to Appear) warrant is issued and will follow you indefinitely until you are arrested and it is quashed. These are not uncommon occurrences. Personally, I think the OP had more of an expectation of a hearing and then being sentenced to jail rather than a warrant being issued. Regardless, it probably differers in various jurisdictions the way they handle uncompleted probation cases. I have seen probation documents, and typically they will include one of those caveats you mentioned that failure to complete may result in a specific jail term.
This poster failed to take any action to correct the situation with the court and was eventually tracked down and arrested on route.
Are you privvy to more facts than I am?
Given the severity of the action by the police, it can be assumed the original charge was a serious offense as police do not waste resources tracking down traffic ticket offenders.
It actually depends on what Police department we are talking about. Mine has very little to do and used to shut down all traffic for a mile in each direction for a traffic accident. If we're going to be assuming, why not assume something in the members favor?
Once in jail, he had to serve his original sentence for his crime and suffer the consequences that arise out of them. One of those consequences is the loss of his career at UPS.
We don't know his original sentence, nor his crime. 30 days is pretty minor as far as jail sentences go nowadays.
Nothing else matters, no periferal issue can change the objective facts of this case.
I think the NLRB might disagree if the duty of fair representation wasn't met, and if he was, in fact, not in attendance that could be an avenue for redress.
He's out of a career, period.
Its a shame his agent and local doesnt have the balls to tell him the truth, and decidedly gave his an "excuse" to try and get rid of him.
Yes that "can't appeal because you asked for back pay" was a new one to me.
He has no case and no right to any appeals.
Not through the Union, but possibly through the NLRB or a labor lawyer. Only they can decide.
Dont encourage him, advise him to move on and stop committing crimes.
I'd be the first to say that but it seems there is more to the story. While no one should commit a crime, when you've had your eyes opened to the (in)Justice system it's enough to give you pause and take an objective look at what the facts are (and these we still don't know. And I wouldn't assume anyone who plead guilty is actually guilty because the way the system is set up a lot of innocent people plead guilty because they can't afford to fight it to court or the Prosecutor gives a lenient enough plea bargain to make it a hard for a reasonable man to not take the plea. I hope you never find this out in person.
Thats the best advice anyone can give him.
Peace.
Let all the facts be known before we judge him.
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
TOS, there is one other thing that is of interest in the original post, and that is this statement
OK, real world timeline instead of contract language.
He gets arrested on friday to make this example easy to follow. The clock on the four days starts monday. On thursday, the employee gets a warning letter for not being at work. On the friday, the 5th day, you say that you can be fired automatically, but not before they send out a 48 hour report notice. This is sent out via certified mail, and as you posted, he has 48 hours after receipt of the letter to report to the center.
So at very best, the letter gets sent out on the following monday, and assuming mail service is fair it is out for delivery on wednesday. A notice is left at the home notifying them of the letter and the need for a signature. OR maybe mom was home and signed for it. But by now, you are at least at day 7-8, and maybe even more. And that is before the clock starts to tick. So at least two weeks have gone by after the arrest before the termination took effect.
Now, from the OP's information, he was not at any of the meetings. And a meeting like this would not have been held at a panel, it would have been local. So he would have the right to an appeal, except the union refuses, and gives him several excuses as to why not.
As a former steward, I would set up a meeting with the company labor manager, and present the case to the manager on the behalf of the employee. There is a very strong possibility that the outcome will not change, but at least my sense of fair play would have been satisfied. And the rights of the employee would also be fulfilled.
The way it is, I can see his frustration at the status.
As for his inability to fulfill his obligation to the court, there is no argument from me, unless there is additional information.
BUG, still waiting. I am open to suggestions if you are interested in telling me why I am wrong. But be aware, unless you are prepared to defend your position...........
Best
d
OK, real world timeline instead of contract language.
He gets arrested on friday to make this example easy to follow. The clock on the four days starts monday. On thursday, the employee gets a warning letter for not being at work. On the friday, the 5th day, you say that you can be fired automatically, but not before they send out a 48 hour report notice. This is sent out via certified mail, and as you posted, he has 48 hours after receipt of the letter to report to the center.
So at very best, the letter gets sent out on the following monday, and assuming mail service is fair it is out for delivery on wednesday. A notice is left at the home notifying them of the letter and the need for a signature. OR maybe mom was home and signed for it. But by now, you are at least at day 7-8, and maybe even more. And that is before the clock starts to tick. So at least two weeks have gone by after the arrest before the termination took effect.
Now, from the OP's information, he was not at any of the meetings. And a meeting like this would not have been held at a panel, it would have been local. So he would have the right to an appeal, except the union refuses, and gives him several excuses as to why not.
As a former steward, I would set up a meeting with the company labor manager, and present the case to the manager on the behalf of the employee. There is a very strong possibility that the outcome will not change, but at least my sense of fair play would have been satisfied. And the rights of the employee would also be fulfilled.
The way it is, I can see his frustration at the status.
As for his inability to fulfill his obligation to the court, there is no argument from me, unless there is additional information.
BUG, still waiting. I am open to suggestions if you are interested in telling me why I am wrong. But be aware, unless you are prepared to defend your position...........
Best
d
Crow,
We dont know all the facts, but its an easy puzzle to figure out. There are blanks to fill, but using the highest "probability" we can fill them in and make the story almost complete.
The NRLB will be of NO USE to this poster. The Union did nothing wrong. The stewards, BA's or Officers do not file the ORIGINAL GRIEVANCE for any issue, and its the AGRIEVED who must file the original protest within 10 working days from the date of the termination. The poster would have had to contact his local while in jail, meaning, the BA would have had to go to the jail and recieve the grievance, give the company notice, hold a hearing at the first opportunity after he was released from jail, be denied, hold a local hearing with the labor officer for the company, be denied, taken to arbitration (if the local has this agreement) be denied, then once this is exhausted, he can be free to contact the NLRB and explain where he was denied representation.
The NRLB will NOT entertain a complaint like this (and take it from me, ive dealt with this many times) and would reject his complaint on the basis of his arrest and failure to handle his own personal business first.
There is a term used at the NRLB when determining legitimacy of a complaint. The complainant must come to them with "clean hands" in order to file a charge against a Union officer or Business Agent.
This means, the person who wants to file a complaint must have done everything right and the union did not follow the protocol for representation. Obviously, this driver did not do everything right from the start. We do not know if he had a local hearing (he did not state so) we do not know if he had a meeting with labor (he did not state so) we do not know if he even filed a grievance challenging the termination (he did not state so).
He does state that a meeting was held OUT OF STATE, and to a union officer, this means it went to a panel hearing. If this is true, in order to get to a panel hearing, it would have to be "docketed" after a denial at the local level.
Only someone with knowledge of union protocol can you guess or assume that this is the case. He does not have to be present at a panel hearing. Either way, he was denied and there is nothing he can claim the union did wrong in representing him. If the Union can demonstrate that they held a grievance hearing, a local hearing and panel hearing and he was denied, the NLRB will help him out by showing him the door he walked in.
If the Union can demonstrate that the poster did NOT file an appropriate grievance within 10 working days of his termination then the NLRB will bounce the complaint.
We cant always assume our members are INNOCENT. We cant win every fight. We can present the best case possible when the facts suggest there is a case to be fought.
Who knows what this guys story is, we are fighting amongst ourselves and this poster has not contributed any additional information. We have all contributed a point of view, we have all asked questions in our posts and yet the poster hasnt answered a single one of them.
At this point, lets see if he will address some of the missing parts of his story and stop arguing with each other.
With years of experience, I can only volunteer an opinion based on practical working knowledge and not guesswork.
Lets have the poster contribute a little more to the story before we work on each other.
Peace.
I wholeheartedly agree with the last part, as there has been a lot of guessing going on.
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
Tos
I disagree we are tearing each other up. We are all presenting positions in a rational and passionate way. As far as discussions on this site go, with a very few exceptions, it has been very calm and informative.
I suspect that the OP has a lot of background he is not sharing, thus the deafening silence on his part. So without additional information, I yield the disscussion for lack of input from the op. Any other position is a long shot, and without additional assistance, a lost cause.
Again, thanks for the ability to continue this discussion in the manner it was conducted.
BTW, BUG, still waiting for the input you wanted to share.
d
I disagree we are tearing each other up. We are all presenting positions in a rational and passionate way. As far as discussions on this site go, with a very few exceptions, it has been very calm and informative.
I suspect that the OP has a lot of background he is not sharing, thus the deafening silence on his part. So without additional information, I yield the disscussion for lack of input from the op. Any other position is a long shot, and without additional assistance, a lost cause.
Again, thanks for the ability to continue this discussion in the manner it was conducted.
BTW, BUG, still waiting for the input you wanted to share.
d
BigUnionGuy
Got the T-Shirt
Dan,
I will try to clarify the point I was trying to make.
What I highlighted in your post gave me the impression your interpretation of the
language puts some sort of burden on the Local to request a leave on the
employees behalf.... which it clearly does not. Thats it.... Thats all....
I tend to get a bit of the red-arse when UPS people want to blame the Union for
their mis-deeds or we should be holding their hands through everyday events.
What 407 said was funny. Maybe his mommy should have called his Local for advice.
And.... TOS must be a member of "The Psychic Network" to glean so much from
my post's. That was meant to be funny.... Nothing worse than an ex-Business Agent.
-Bug-
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
BUG
Sorry if that is the impression you got. I know its not the union responsibility to babysit drivers. What is their responsibility is to assist them in any way possible to keep their jobs.
While this is a difficult position for the employee, he does need to grow a set and take some ownership for what has happened.
d
Sorry if that is the impression you got. I know its not the union responsibility to babysit drivers. What is their responsibility is to assist them in any way possible to keep their jobs.
While this is a difficult position for the employee, he does need to grow a set and take some ownership for what has happened.
d
edward calhoun
Member
Well this does not surprise me. I hear things like this all the time now with our management & Union Reps. Seems that its more about scratching each others back. I think you have a couple of options... first yougo over your shop stewards head and go directlt to union official or secondly just be thankful that your not employed with this company any longer and realize things happen for a reason
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
Dear Eddie
As far as being thankful he does not work for UPS, why would he want to be thankful for that, now that he has no way to make his house payment, car payment, feed his kids............What the hell are you thinking? HE was thankful he did have a job.
Things do happen for a reason. But in this case, the reason was lack of responsibility on the part of the driver. Or at least that is the way it appears without any additional postings from the OP.
d
First off, stewards dont represent the employee at panel hearings, BA's do. So where do you go over the stewards head when the BA was in on the hearing?
As far as being thankful he does not work for UPS, why would he want to be thankful for that, now that he has no way to make his house payment, car payment, feed his kids............What the hell are you thinking? HE was thankful he did have a job.
Things do happen for a reason. But in this case, the reason was lack of responsibility on the part of the driver. Or at least that is the way it appears without any additional postings from the OP.
d
thebrownspot
Member
you need to call down to the union hall and get kenny or steve invovled. a union stewart wouldn't handle a case that serious. you should still be able to appeal. i'm assuming your a 705 or 710 member.
if that fails get a lawyer.
if that fails get a lawyer.
Last edited by a moderator:
packageguy
Well-Known Member
I think we all miss tie,
UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
To paraphrase a song from one of my favorite bands, Chicago:
Does anybody really know where tieguy is?
does anybody really care?
well i am a steward and we had a situation just exactly like this one .. except it wasnt a steward that represented this guy it was the agent and he was represented he got canned too..... he didnt listen when he was told to follow the judges orders . in my opinion we r held to a higher regard in the community so we should act as such and not get thrown in jail like a common thug regards from the high plains b
menotyou
bella amicizia
It makes one curious as to why they came into a UPS vehicle that was obviously in the middle of its daily route to snatch away the poor driver who didn't pay his stupid..........
Oh, that's right. They wouldn't do it for parking tickets. They wouldn't do it for failure to pay a fine on a speeding ticket. Why would they take a UPS Driver away from his vehicle in the middle of the day and leave the truck on the side of the road? Why would any police force sneak its way into a UPS vehicle to steal away the poor driver who didn't show up to sweep the local library?
Had to be one hell of a reason for them to resort to that.
Oh, that's right. They wouldn't do it for parking tickets. They wouldn't do it for failure to pay a fine on a speeding ticket. Why would they take a UPS Driver away from his vehicle in the middle of the day and leave the truck on the side of the road? Why would any police force sneak its way into a UPS vehicle to steal away the poor driver who didn't show up to sweep the local library?
Had to be one hell of a reason for them to resort to that.
dannyboy
From the promised LAND
Ahhh, not sure why. But
He did mention he was at his home when they arrested him. That would be the logical starting place for law enforcement to look, would it not? Especially if he went home each day for lunch, while out making deliveries?
As for child support, I had an employee who did not inform me of child support issues. And the state neglected to send me any information as well. On his way to pick up his kids for the weekend, he was assaulted. They beat him pretty bad, and literally stomped his hand. It broke 11 bones in his hand, so he had to have surgery and pins. That was late Friday night. He was still in the hospital on Monday morning when he was to be in court for a hearing on the child support. Since he was in the hospital, he called the court clerks office about the situation at 8:30. They came and arrested him for failure to show before 10, at the hospital. They cuffed him to the bed, and posted a guard until Tuesday when he was transfered in shackles to the jail infirmary.
So while your mind might run away with possibilities, it could be very minor problems that he allowed to mushroom into something that really pisses the court off. Failure to follow instructions.
d
Any time you dont pay a ticket, or fail to show up, there is a bench warrant issued. So yes, you can be arrested for not paying.
He did mention he was at his home when they arrested him. That would be the logical starting place for law enforcement to look, would it not? Especially if he went home each day for lunch, while out making deliveries?
As for child support, I had an employee who did not inform me of child support issues. And the state neglected to send me any information as well. On his way to pick up his kids for the weekend, he was assaulted. They beat him pretty bad, and literally stomped his hand. It broke 11 bones in his hand, so he had to have surgery and pins. That was late Friday night. He was still in the hospital on Monday morning when he was to be in court for a hearing on the child support. Since he was in the hospital, he called the court clerks office about the situation at 8:30. They came and arrested him for failure to show before 10, at the hospital. They cuffed him to the bed, and posted a guard until Tuesday when he was transfered in shackles to the jail infirmary.
So while your mind might run away with possibilities, it could be very minor problems that he allowed to mushroom into something that really pisses the court off. Failure to follow instructions.
d
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