Gas Prices

[soberups]

The newer package cars get worse mileage than the older ones.

Yes but the gas engines are so much cheaper to build (and replace) than diesels that the company still saves money in the long run.

The new generation of diesel engines (post 2007) are required to have costly and complicated DPF's (Diesel Particulate Filters) that render them unsuitable for use with biodiesel. How convenient for the oil companies. Ideally, this requirement would be eliminated for fleets (like UPS) that agree to only use biodiesel. I'm not holding my breath, though.

 

[wkmac]

The car dealers in my town have no shortage of full-sized 4x4 trucks and muscle cars for sale.

I'm not a fan of CAFE standards. I would rather see an across-the-board $3 per gallon "deficit reduction tax" on fossil fuels, as well as loosening the EPA restrictions on hyper-efficient turbodiesels that can use renewable fuel. Want a gas-engined Humvee or a Lincoln Navigator that gets 8MPG? Go ahead and buy one, and pay thru the nose every time you fill 'er up. I will keep my Prius, or switch over to a VW Lupo that gets 80MPG on domestically-produced renewable biodiesel. CAFE standards are a joke when the same hyper-efficient cars that are widely available in Europe are banned here yet you can still buy an SUV with a gasoline-powered V8.

As to the variety of vehicle choices, I also agree, especially on vehicles like the Lupo which is excluded from the US market.

As to the $3 added tax, your intent may seem good but also consider this. Said tax also embeds an incentive for some to further tie us down to fossil fuel as the tax from serves a special interest benefit. Thus a market incentive not from natural market forces overpower and dominate market outcomes.

Seems to me it would also curtail further innovations and new technologies as such may well not benefit the same economic forces that under the tax would enjoy privilege.

I like the thinking of your intent but we need to think it out as the unintended consequences and it's possible negatives could well displace the positives we might think would take place. Now I do agree in placing all true costs of oil on the price at the pump and IMO this would do more in moving us away from fossil fuel and it's a true free market approach. But then maybe this might also serve as a teaching moment as many who talk of free markets don't really want it but just talk the lingo for political advantage and narrative purposes.

I thought your point there is an outstanding idea.

 

[oldngray]

Yes but the gas engines are so much cheaper to build (and replace) than diesels that the company still saves money in the long run.

The new generation of diesel engines (post 2007) are required to have costly and complicated DPF's (Diesel Particulate Filters) that render them unsuitable for use with biodiesel. How convenient for the oil companies. Ideally, this requirement would be eliminated for fleets (like UPS) that agree to only use biodiesel. I'm not holding my breath, though.

Actually I was referring to gas engines and not diesels so your argument wouldn't apply for those vehicles.

 

[Babagounj]

Congress established Gas Guzzler Tax provisions in the Energy Tax Act of 1978 to discourage the production and purchase of fuel-inefficient vehicles.
The Gas Guzzler Tax is assessed on new cars that do not meet required fuel economy levels.
These taxes apply only to passenger cars. Trucks, minivans, and sport utility vehicles (SUV) are not covered because these vehicle types were not widely available in 1978 and were rarely used for non-commercial purposes.
The IRS is responsible for administering the gas guzzler program and collecting the taxes from car manufacturers or importers.
The amount of tax is posted on the window stickers of new cars - the lower the fuel economy, the higher the tax.

 

[soberups]

When you start taxing at different rates for different types of vehicles it is no longer capitalism. You would be subsidizing one type of vehicle at the expense of another.

We are already subsidizing a huge military presence in the Middle East by passing debt down to our grandchildren rather than paying for the true cost of oil at the pump. That isn't capitalism either.

 

[oldngray]

We are already subsidizing a huge military presence in the Middle East by passing debt down to our grandchildren rather than paying for the true cost of oil at the pump. That isn't capitalism either.

We pay so much tax at the pump the true cost is hidden but that is state and local taxes, not because of military costs.

 

[soberups]

Actually I was referring to gas engines and not diesels so your argument wouldn't apply for those vehicles.

The new package cars all have gasoline engines that get significantly worse mileage than the diesels we have been running for 20+ years.

 

[wkmac]

We are already subsidizing a huge military presence in the Middle East by passing debt down to our grandchildren rather than paying for the true cost of oil at the pump. That isn't capitalism either.

It may well be capitalism but that is a whole other and historically deep subject in itself. But on the surface, DEAD ON BRO!

 

[Babagounj]

The problem with taxes is that once they begin they never go away .
Some politician will always demand that more is needed , for the children .

 

[oldngray]

The new package cars all have gasoline engines that get significantly worse mileage than the diesels we have been running for 20+ years.

The new package cars also get worse mpg than old cars with gas engines.

 

[soberups]

.

As to the $3 added tax, your intent may seem good but also consider this. Said tax also embeds an incentive for some to further tie us down to fossil fuel as the tax from serves a special interest benefit. Thus a market incentive not from natural market forces overpower and dominate market outcomes.

But if you chose to buy a hydrogen or natural gas or biodiesel-powered vehicle, you wouldn't have to pay the tax. You would instead pay a free market price for fuel that was produced domestically, thus keeping your money in our country instead of sending it overseas to nations that are in many cases hostile to us. Or...if you didn't care about all that and still wanted to drive a gas-guzzler.....you would be free to do so, while helping to reduce the deficit by paying an extra $3 per gallon tax at the pump every time you refueled it. Its all about free choice.

 

[Babagounj]

" Clean Diesel made from domestically mined coal "
Now that's going to be tough since obuma has shut down the coal industry .

 

[soberups]

The new package cars also get worse mpg than old cars with gas engines.

The old ones with gas engines were underpowered 6 cylinders that would not meet current emissions standards and would be incapable of moving a modern, fully loaded P-12 down the road at a legal speed. I think someone from IE finally pulled his head out and realized that paying a driver $50 an hour on OT to crawl up hills at 12 MPH in a gutless truck didn't make economic sense.

 

[MAKAVELI]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_to_liquid
As coal liquefaction generally is a high-temperature/high-pressure process, it requires a significant energy consumption and, at industrial scales (thousands of barrels/day), multi-billion dollar capital investments. Thus, coal liquefaction is only economically viable at historically high oil prices, and therefore presents a high investment risk.
Most[which?] coal liquefaction processes are associated with significant CO2 emissions from the gasification process or from heat and electricity inputs to the reactors.[citation needed], thus contributing to global warming, especially if coal liquefaction is conducted without carbon capture and storage technologies.[13] High water consumption in water-gas shift or methane steam reforming reactions is another adverse environmental effect.[citation needed] On the other hand, synthetic fuels produced by indirect coal liquefaction processes tend to be 'cleaner' than naturally occurring crudes, as heteroatom (e.g. sulfur) compounds are not synthesized or are excluded from the final product.[citation needed]

Pyrolysis of coal produces polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, which are known carcinogens.[14]

 

[wkmac]

But if you chose to buy a hydrogen or natural gas or biodiesel-powered vehicle, you wouldn't have to pay the tax. You would instead pay a free market price for fuel that was produced domestically, thus keeping your money in our country instead of sending it overseas to nations that are in many cases hostile to us. Or...if you didn't care about all that and still wanted to drive a gas-guzzler.....you would be free to do so, while helping to reduce the deficit by paying an extra $3 per gallon tax at the pump every time you refueled it. Its all about free choice.

I understand that part of what you are thinking and you would be correct but the other part of this equation is that fossil fuel has enjoyed a privileged status for the last century even to the point now that oil has in many respects replaced gold as the commodity backing that keeps specifically our currency the dominate medium. Again, I like your thinking but the problem is way beyond what we do at the pump.

I would also add that oil is the backbone of much of modern chemistry from agra petro chemicals to modern medical chemistry. This is all vastly bigger than what our choices are in what we put in our cars and how far they drive. IMHO, that $3 would just put more money into the hands of the very economic forces we are tying to break from. You assume the State which is connected at the hip to such oil forces would even allow us such choices once the $3 tax was in place. If not, what would we do then?

But I do think a good first step is in we all realizing what we have now is NOT a free market regardless the BS fed to us out of the political and social control matrix. Or if it is a free market, our definition and their definition are not the same and in the case of the latter I do think there is much merit there.

 

[wkmac]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal_to_liquid
As coal liquefaction generally is a high-temperature/high-pressure process, it requires a significant energy consumption and, at industrial scales (thousands of barrels/day), multi-billion dollar capital investments. Thus, coal liquefaction is only economically viable at historically high oil prices, and therefore presents a high investment risk.
Most[which?] coal liquefaction processes are associated with significant CO2 emissions from the gasification process or from heat and electricity inputs to the reactors.[citation needed], thus contributing to global warming, especially if coal liquefaction is conducted without carbon capture and storage technologies.[13] High water consumption in water-gas shift or methane steam reforming reactions is another adverse environmental effect.[citation needed] On the other hand, synthetic fuels produced by indirect coal liquefaction processes tend to be 'cleaner' than naturally occurring crudes, as heteroatom (e.g. sulfur) compounds are not synthesized or are excluded from the final product.[citation needed]

Pyrolysis of coal produces polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, which are known carcinogens.[14]

Not a fan of this and it doesn't do anything to move beyond fossil fuel. I think where Sober and I for example would agree, we both want to begin to move beyond fossil fuel. We may differ on how that comes to be.

IMO the first step of breaking fossil fuel is to break the connection fossil fuel enjoys to the value of currency. The day when oil sneezes and currency markets never notice, then the day has arrived we can have a real conversation about energy going forward.

 

[brownmonster]

But if you chose to buy a hydrogen or natural gas or biodiesel-powered vehicle, you wouldn't have to pay the tax. You would instead pay a free market price for fuel that was produced domestically, thus keeping your money in our country instead of sending it overseas to nations that are in many cases hostile to us. Or...if you didn't care about all that and still wanted to drive a gas-guzzler.....you would be free to do so, while helping to reduce the deficit by paying an extra $3 per gallon tax at the pump every time you refueled it. Its all about free choice.

That 3 bucks would go towards lowering the deficit just like social security taxes are put into a trust fund for retirees or the tobacco settlements were put in escrow for future health care costs. Pipe dream.

 

[Babagounj]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...audi-prince-alwaleed-oil-100-barrel/21484911/
Saudi prince: $100-a-barrel oil 'never' again
Q: What is moving prices? Is this a supply or a demand story? Some say there's too much oil in the world, and that is pressuring prices. But others say the global economy is slow, so it's weak demand.

A: It is both. We have an oversupply. Iraq right now is producing very much. Even in Libya, where they have civil war, they are still producing.
The U.S. is now producing shale oil and gas. So, there's oversupply in the market.
But also demand is weak. We all know Japan is hovering around 0% growth. China said that they'll grow 6% or 7%. India's growth has been cut in half. Germany acknowledged just two months ago they will cut the growth potential from 2% to 1%.
There's less demand, and there's oversupply.
And both are recipes for a crash in oil. And that's what happened.
It's a no-brainer.

 

[The Other Side]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...audi-prince-alwaleed-oil-100-barrel/21484911/
Saudi prince: $100-a-barrel oil 'never' again
Q: What is moving prices? Is this a supply or a demand story? Some say there's too much oil in the world, and that is pressuring prices. But others say the global economy is slow, so it's weak demand.

A: It is both. We have an oversupply. Iraq right now is producing very much. Even in Libya, where they have civil war, they are still producing.
The U.S. is now producing shale oil and gas. So, there's oversupply in the market.
But also demand is weak. We all know Japan is hovering around 0% growth. China said that they'll grow 6% or 7%. India's growth has been cut in half. Germany acknowledged just two months ago they will cut the growth potential from 2% to 1%.
There's less demand, and there's oversupply.
And both are recipes for a crash in oil. And that's what happened.
It's a no-brainer.

You should be thanking him.

TOS.

 

[Babagounj]

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