Ground to absorb Express

[FedGT]

I like what I do and I'm in a place in my life where this job is enough. My wife is the bread winner by far. I'm not complaining.
My point is if your 21 and have a shot at topping out and making 55 to 60 grand with decent benefits at express. You have a better chance of getting and keeping a good worker than ground does.

No ?

Top out is probably better with you guys in vast majority of situations but from posts I have seen I have no clue when top out is. Maybe 15-20 years. I had guys that were with me for a year and a half that were making $800 a week plus a little over $2000 in bonuses annually. Not many dues to pay if they busted there butt for me and I knew they were worth it. So in a little over a year that was close to $44k. How long would it take a new hire express carrier to surpass that? My manager was barely over $1000 per week, had a company cargo van, $3000 in bonuses and half the year only ran out of the cargo van as overflow help working 2-3 hours before hanging out at his house for most of the day (not bad for $55k per year). I also had garbage employees that never made more than $650 per week before I canned them because they were entitled and didn't think they should have to work.
Like the other contractor i didn't provide health insurance or 401k but they got everything else.

 

[The Youngin' Of It All]

If you think for one second of one minute that express would go to a contractor model. You know nothing about the business.

Catching myself up on the thread from today. Clearly you have no idea what's coming through the pipes down the road. It's already been confirmed by my sources it's going to happen. Why do you think they are closing and collapsing Express hubs and adding more Ground hubs within a denser radius? They already did this where I live and the Express hub moved 15 miles further away from where it used to be making the routes more spread out. In my area alone we are moving almost 20 miles closer to my first stop versus where I am now for Ground. I'll admit when I first saw the color brand coming I knew it wasn't a coincidence and was even skeptical it was going to be X throwing out the contractor model and making everyone employees. But using Economics 101 here, I was able to think about it in a different perspective. If X can cut the 401'ks, pensions, and benefits and put SOME of the Express volume on contractors and still be able to negotiate how much a contractor makes per delivery, package, etc., and run a successful operation without incurring the business costs, what good are you to the company at $28 when it can be done for $14? It's all about productivity levels, cost allocation, and profit maximization. Same applies to X if they can cut out the perks, employee pay, and truck costs. It's all about having running the sort (inbound & outbound), having a SMALL office staff depending on the size of the hub, and zero interaction. And with no union there, Fred's licking his lips in satisfaction with that stock right about now. Point is, every one is expendable if the work can be done at a better rate and properly done. Get the big picture like they tell us to drive safe and not be a deer in the head lights to change.

 

[Oldfart]

Catching myself up on the thread from today. Clearly you have no idea what's coming through the pipes down the road. It's already been confirmed by my sources it's going to happen. Why do you think they are closing and collapsing Express hubs and adding more Ground hubs within a denser radius? They already did this where I live and the Express hub moved 15 miles further away from where it used to be making the routes more spread out. In my area alone we are moving almost 20 miles closer to my first stop versus where I am now for Ground. I'll admit when I first saw the color brand coming I knew it wasn't a coincidence and was even skeptical it was going to be X throwing out the contractor model and making everyone employees. But using Economics 101 here, I was able to think about it in a different perspective. If X can cut the 401'ks, pensions, and benefits and put SOME of the Express volume on contractors and still be able to negotiate how much a contractor makes per delivery, package, etc., and run a successful operation without incurring the business costs, what good are you to the company at $28 when it can be done for $14? It's all about productivity levels, cost allocation, and profit maximization. Same applies to X if they can cut out the perks, employee pay, and truck costs. It's all about having running the sort (inbound & outbound), having a SMALL office staff depending on the size of the hub, and zero interaction. And with no union there, Fred's licking his lips in satisfaction with that stock right about now. Point is, every one is expendable if the work can be done at a better rate and properly done. Get the big picture like they tell us to drive safe and not be a deer in the head lights to change.

Once again, if Express in my area can barely keep up with the freight we have, how is Ground gonna absorb our freight and continue doing theirs? I know nothing about Ground, Home or Smartpost but I know we are getting peak numbers nearly everyday and have every since we thought peak was over. I did ask a Ground guy in my area and his leave bldg time would seem to prevent him from doing much with p1's. I was under the impression that Express Saver would go away but haven't heard anything about that lately.

 

[MAKAVELI]

Catching myself up on the thread from today. Clearly you have no idea what's coming through the pipes down the road. It's already been confirmed by my sources it's going to happen. Why do you think they are closing and collapsing Express hubs and adding more Ground hubs within a denser radius? They already did this where I live and the Express hub moved 15 miles further away from where it used to be making the routes more spread out. In my area alone we are moving almost 20 miles closer to my first stop versus where I am now for Ground. I'll admit when I first saw the color brand coming I knew it wasn't a coincidence and was even skeptical it was going to be X throwing out the contractor model and making everyone employees. But using Economics 101 here, I was able to think about it in a different perspective. If X can cut the 401'ks, pensions, and benefits and put SOME of the Express volume on contractors and still be able to negotiate how much a contractor makes per delivery, package, etc., and run a successful operation without incurring the business costs, what good are you to the company at $28 when it can be done for $14? It's all about productivity levels, cost allocation, and profit maximization. Same applies to X if they can cut out the perks, employee pay, and truck costs. It's all about having running the sort (inbound & outbound), having a SMALL office staff depending on the size of the hub, and zero interaction. And with no union there, Fred's licking his lips in satisfaction with that stock right about now. Point is, every one is expendable if the work can be done at a better rate and properly done. Get the big picture like they tell us to drive safe and not be a deer in the head lights to change.

I think you are the one who is clueless. FedEx has not closed any Express HUBS. There may have been a few STATIONS that have closed and absorbed by surrounding STATIONS, but those are more likely in metro areas where it was feasible to move the routes and work.

 

[The Youngin' Of It All]

I think you are the one who is clueless. FedEx has not closed any Express HUBS. There may have been a few STATIONS that have closed and absorbed by surrounding STATIONS, but those are more likely in metro areas where it was feasible to move the routes and work.

Makaveli, you are right about that portion somewhat. It does depend on the geographic location. Perhaps I may have inaccurately explained that to some degree given that I am near the area you just described. I can't comment on what it's like in other areas and have not nearly been around as long as a contractor as some of the other people on this board to know the full 20/20, hence my name. I understand however that in my area they did as followed and absorbed it out of another station. Regardless, the outcome is still the same I believe with the conversion of giving some volume to Ground. Even if they took off Express Saver and gave it to Ground, I still believe it would be doable. As for 2Day, PO, SO, and FO, well I'm still curious to how it would play out. But why not start with Express Saver? You gotta walk before you crawl. And as I already said, my sources tell me Express is coming, they just haven't said how much, but maybe we can revisit that conversation in 2020 like one of those Facebook memories.

 

[The Youngin' Of It All]

Once again, if Express in my area can barely keep up with the freight we have, how is Ground gonna absorb our freight and continue doing theirs? I know nothing about Ground, Home or Smartpost but I know we are getting peak numbers nearly everyday and have every since we thought peak was over. I did ask a Ground guy in my area and his leave bldg time would seem to prevent him from doing much with p1's. I was under the impression that Express Saver would go away but haven't heard anything about that lately.

I will admit that we are a lot busier this year than last year. Chewy Tuesday's seems to be the new thing in my hub. To answer your question though, they aren't going to put everything all at once and may not even do it at all. Heard 6 day's a week wasn't working out so well, but they wanted to enforce that one in our ISP agreement. That's the beauty of it with X, they control the game and no one really knows what they're thinking. It's pay to play and if you fail, oh well it's not their cold hard cash or investment. As I stated before, Ground is going through too many changes right now to do it at the moment. But as I stated before, if they can reduce costs for their own benefit, what do they care whose expense it comes at as long as they are making money? The contractor will always be at fault even if they dispatch you at 11:00 or 12:00. Should have had a plan is all you hear. I wouldn't be surprised if they wanted us to own 10 or 12 trucks down the road (including some Express) so that you can dispatch guys immediately in such scenarios as late trailers, or broken conveyor systems at your own free disposal.

 

[MAKAVELI]

Makaveli, you are right about that portion somewhat. It does depend on the geographic location. Perhaps I may have inaccurately explained that to some degree given that I am near the area you just described. I can't comment on what it's like in other areas and have not nearly been around as long as a contractor as some of the other people on this board to know the full 20/20, hence my name. I understand however that in my area they did as followed and absorbed it out of another station. Regardless, the outcome is still the same I believe with the conversion of giving some volume to Ground. Even if they took off Express Saver and gave it to Ground, I still believe it would be doable. As for 2Day, PO, SO, and FO, well I'm still curious to how it would play out. But why not start with Express Saver? You gotta walk before you crawl. And as I already said, my sources tell me Express is coming, they just haven't said how much, but maybe we can revisit that conversation in 2020 like one of those Facebook memories.

Your source is just blowing smoke up your ass. They went on a massive hiring spree the past two years, putting in a new wage scale for those new hires, buying $billions in new planes and trucks, and almost $5 billion for TNT. Does that sound like an opoco getting ready to downsize?

 

[The Youngin' Of It All]

Your source is just blowing smoke up your ass. They went on a massive hiring spree the past two years, buying $billions in new planes and trucks, and almost $5 billion for TNT. Does that sound like an poco getting ready to downsize?

I never said anything about the company downsizing. The company is growing and doing quite well actually. All I stated was the reallocation of where they may want to shift the costs going forward between Ground and Express. I spoke to an Express guy that lives in my area just the other day and he told me they were not hiring anyone or purchasing any new vehicles. Went to one of my mechanics who has a lot of connections to people who work on those Express vehicles and was told the same thing in a different area too. Why do you think that is? Also, what would be the purpose behind the brand imaging change? To confuse more people? I'm just stating my perspective of what I have seen so far.

 

[The Youngin' Of It All]

A new perspective on the matter and much appreciated. I don't even want to think about what this is going to be like for contractors in depressed rural areas like the one I operated in which consisted of 34 zip codes stretched across 4 large rural counties and included more than 3000 miles of RD mail carrier miles on unpaved township turkey trails so narrow and in such poor condition that 15-20 MPH was the best you could do without tearing the suspension out from under you because that was all they were designed for. Merging 4-5 single routes under 1 C-Corp with separate profit centers could work if all routes have the same overall profitability all members agree to take the same modest salary draw and each profit center is required to maintain minimum capital reserves. Few people would be willing to abide by the discipline required to make it a success. The clearly better way and I'm seeing more of this is 4or 5 single route contractors packaging together their routes and sell them for more than what they are worth to somebody from the investor class who only sees if from the here and now and not what's coming later.

I missed your post Bacha, but I do agree along the lines with what you are saying. The rural routes make this a tough investment with X if they invoke Express into the mix. I'm sorry to hear about that and made sure to keep myself away from anything over 120+ miles a day. I'm fortunate because my routes do around 80 miles a day and when we move to the new building will do close to 40-50 miles a day. As far as the contractors doing what we just described, it all comes down to a mix of personalities and being able to deal with the new scaled system, especially the straight trucks. I can tell you that out of my hub there were a couple of singles who did not survive this. I think they're going to be in for a rude awakening when they see that they aren't getting any more money than they had hoped for, especially if their contractor can't negotiate properly they may even lose money. The reality of it is is that the contractor who wanted to take those under his wing is pretty much the wheeler dealer of their funds. Especially if he mixed straight trucks and step van routes together, there is no way to divide these funds out under ISP since the PSA system is gone. As far as an investor or broker, it's not a bad idea to try and dump it on someone else when all else fails. After all if you're getting money and getting out, why should you care about then when you're getting out now? Seems we think alike.

 

[MAKAVELI]

I never said anything about the company downsizing. The company is growing and doing quite well actually. All I stated was the reallocation of where they may want to shift the costs going forward between Ground and Express. I spoke to an Express guy that lives in my area just the other day and he told me they were not hiring anyone or purchasing any new vehicles. Went to one of my mechanics who has a lot of connections to people who work on those Express vehicles and was told the same thing in a different area too. Why do you think that is? Also, what would be the purpose behind the brand imaging change? To confuse more people? I'm just stating my perspective of what I have seen so far.

Your mechanic doesn't know squat. They have been phasing out the old Grummans for Isuzu Reach and Mercedes Sprinters for quite some time now. As far as hiring its after peak and they normally don't hire at this time of the year. But the past two years have had a large increase in outside hiring over past years. as far as the color change, yours changed not ours. What does that tell you?

 

[The Youngin' Of It All]

m

Your mechanic doesn't know squat. They have been phasing out the old Grummins for Isuzu Reach and Mercedes Sprinters for quite some time now. As far as hiring its after peak and they normally don't hire at this time of the year. But the past two years have had a large increase in outside hiring over past years. as far as the color change, yours changed not ours. What does that tell you?

Makaveli, I can see we're hitting it off real well with each other. I've seen them on the road and am very well aware. As I've said before, it's all about reducing costs and investing in more efficient vehicles and personnel for operations. I'm talking about purchasing ANY vehicles regardless what kind of vehicle it is. I'll get back to you with the answer to that question when I know what X is thinking. Could be we all become employees or it could be the other way around. Only the future will tell.

 

[MAKAVELI]

m


Makaveli, I can see we're hitting it off real well with each other. I've seen them on the road and am very well aware. As I've said before, it's all about reducing costs and investing in more efficient vehicles and personnel for operations. I'm talking about purchasing ANY vehicles regardless what kind of vehicle it is. I'll get back to you with the answer to that question when I know what X is thinking. Could be we all become employees or it could be the other way around. Only the future will tell.

I don't think you or the other ground cheerleaders understand how Express works and is basically the brand of the company. They love the profitability of ground but also realize if Express goes to contractors, they loose that brand and the future of the company. This is why they keep tweaking both opcos. To get the best of both for as long as they can. Express is a very large operation and can not survive on overnight volume alone. Like I said in a prior post, they essentially handcuffed themselves to keeping the opcos separate until its no longer viable to do so. There is simply too many legal issues and costs involved to turn Express into ground.

 

[The Youngin' Of It All]

I don't think you or the other ground cheerleaders understand how Express works and is basically the brand of the company. They love the profitability of ground but also realize if Express goes to contractors, they loose that brand and the future of the company. This is why they keep tweaking both opcos. To get the best of both for as long as they can. Express is a very large operation and can not survive on overnight volume alone. Like I said in a prior post, they essentially handcuffed themselves to keeping the opcos separate until its no longer viable to do so. There is simply too many legal issues and costs involved to turn Express into ground.

As is the shoe on the other foot with Ground into Express. The lawsuits proved that already, especially in California and New Jersey. The New Jersey lawyers aren't letting this one go down easily. What happens next if ISP fails? I do agree they are taking a chance putting it in Ground's hands, especially considering Express was the starting company, but times change just like everything else. But if Freddy is getting ready to step down soon anyway, why should he care if he got out and got his billions? Like the office would say to us, it's not our problem but the contractors fault if something goes wrong. And if it's not the contractor's fault, it'll be the next person who comes in and takes over problem. If the Titanic splits, which side of the ship do you want to be on longer when it's all said and done? The outcome still is the same regardless.

 

[MAKAVELI]

As is the shoe on the other foot with Ground into Express. The lawsuits proved that already, especially in California and New Jersey. The New Jersey lawyers aren't letting this one go down easily.

You just proved my point. The only way out when it comes to making Express and Ground one, is to making everyone employees.

 

[The Youngin' Of It All]

And all the thousands of dollars that everyone has invested? Just thrown away or mysteriously vanished? All the more reason to ask you your proposal to that question since a ton of people just took out lump sum loans or have reinvested their funds back into the buying out of other contractor's? All the maintenance, uniforms, payroll taxes, and worker's comp I've paid into? Am I getting a reimbursement for all that too? Like I stated earlier tonight, I had my suspicions it would that way, but then I was convinced otherwise after knowing what I know now from what I learned a few weeks ago. While I do agree there are too many legal issues, lawsuits, and issues with the two OpCo's being too separated, why would X go through all the trouble of redesigning the whole model and system only to immediately discard it right away knowing people have invested? They are tired of being sued left and right and losing. Do you think they want the same thing to happen twice? I can't speak anymore on the subject, but trust me 2020 will have all the answers.

 

[Purplepackage]

I love this conversation. I was never one to says express saver wouldn't go away because I truly feel it will.

But literally everything else Youngin in it all is saying about what's happening currently at express is wrong lol

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

That is what is foremost. Ground's economy of operation will no doubt weigh heavily on corporate's future plans.

...and will be a topic of interest during our 2018 contract negotiations...

 

[bacha29]

Your mechanic doesn't know squat. They have been phasing out the old Grummans for Isuzu Reach and Mercedes Sprinters for quite some time now. As far as hiring its after peak and they normally don't hire at this time of the year. But the past two years have had a large increase in outside hiring over past years. as far as the color change, yours changed not ours. What does that tell you?

Out here where the buses don't run we had a couple of Izuzu Reaches and Sprinters. They didn't last long. The suspensions wouldn't take it and the Sprinters rusted out quickly. I used a Quigley 4X4 conversion to great success. Wasn't allowed by the TM at the time to get another one . Had to get a P700 . Using one of those in winter was a suicide mission. The succeeding TM and I went out in the Q one winter's day. he fell in love with it. When I said that I wanted my next one to be a US Army Deuce and a Half. he said "you get it I'll sign off on it".

 

[bacha29]

I don't think you or the other ground cheerleaders understand how Express works and is basically the brand of the company. They love the profitability of ground but also realize if Express goes to contractors, they loose that brand and the future of the company. This is why they keep tweaking both opcos. To get the best of both for as long as they can. Express is a very large operation and can not survive on overnight volume alone. Like I said in a prior post, they essentially handcuffed themselves to keeping the opcos separate until its no longer viable to do so. There is simply too many legal issues and costs involved to turn Express into ground.

Look around the airports and what do you see? The planes are leased. The gates are leased. The plane maintenance is contracted. The food service is contracted . The ticket sales are contracted. One earlier post said that it's the art of the deal. It's not the art of the deal. It's the politics of change.......and what it will look like.

 

[The Youngin' Of It All]

I love this conversation. I was never one to says express saver wouldn't go away because I truly feel it will.

But literally everything else Youngin in it all is saying about what's happening currently at express is wrong lol

I never said I was wrong or right. All I did was give my perspective of the situation the way I see it. Like I said before, X controls the cards in the end and it'll be interesting to see how Pittsburgh wants to integrate this one, IF they do. But explain to me how if I am currently heading into a negotiation process and we agree upon a 3 year contract (because let's face it corporate doesn't want to do 1 year contract deals and have to deal with renegotiating every single year), how it couldn't be a possibility? As I also stated before, if contractors are able to manage some Express volume (Express Saver), whether by choice or not and X can still make a ton of money while deflecting the major operating costs, why wouldn't they intend on doing so for THEIR own benefit? They don't care if it takes the contractor 10 or 20 people or a million dollar investment to buy spare vehicles to get it done because it's not their money invested. As I said before, if it can be done for less perks and pay and still ran profitable for them, why the hell not? As Makaveli said before, they are taking a chance putting it in contractors hands and have made a mess of everything with keeping the two OpCo's separate, but they obviously have their reasons for doing so. They are tired of getting sued and having class actions, but they obviously rebranded for 1 of 2 scenarios. The bottom line is what it really boils down to is X looking to generate profit for the shareholders and upper level management / corporate in the end. I'll let you know more when we know more, but this is just my vision so damn me if I do or damn me if I don't.