Has anyone actually been fired for attendance?

[TheBrownNote]

And we were basically talking about being terminated for occurrences of lates and call ins just because you didn't feel like coming to work, not because of a possible injury and FMLA. Yes, you can be terminated, even though there is no published attendance policy.
[/QUOTE]

This was my piont earlier, please provide me with the written UPS attendence policy, so that i may comply to the fullest of my capabilities. This policy, what article is it under? How can members comply if the policy is not avaiable in writing? Where is it stated progressive discipline up to and including termination can apply to this written policy? The contract rules EVERYTHING. And it is not written in the contract. Otherwise, what stops the company from just firing drivers for policies, not in writing? Oh wait, they cant.

Once again, i actually think the company should be able to fire or discipline because of attendence. However, just like any other issue, it is incumbent upon UPS (or the teamsters) to include it in the contract, if they would like to apply discipline and have it stick.

What is the general article that applies all writen policy not stated in the contract to the members?
I can point to certain sections that say this policy applies, like the uniform policy, which is not explicitly written out. Cant find the attendence policy.

TL;DR show up for your shift and then you dont have to worry about the attendence policy that is not outlined in the contract.
Also the company should be able to discipline attendance issues.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

He may have been able to get intermittent FMLA for his "neck injury" days off, but he still had an attendance problem.

UPS eventually terminated Haefling's employment as a result of his excessive absenteeism and his failure to abide by UPS's attendance policy.   During the period leading up to the termination of Haefling's employment, the attendance records for Haefling maintained by UPS indicate that he was absent from work at least thirty-two of the 257 days he was scheduled to work (an absence rate of approximately twelve percent).   The district court relied on Haefling's personal diary to establish Haefling's attendance rate for this same period.   This diary, which purportedly contained Haefling's notes on his own attendance, off-set some of the absences contained in UPS's attendance records.   However, the diary still indicated that Haefling missed twenty-five scheduled work days, which, in part, constituted seventeen occurrences.   In examining the two hundred day period immediately preceding the termination of Haefling's employment, the district court found that Haefling missed eighteen days on eleven occurrences for reasons ranging from heat exhaustion, to a suspended license, to the flu.   Of those eighteen absences, only seven days and five occurrences are attributed to Haefling's neck injury according to the district court's reading of Haefling's diary.


And we were basically talking about being terminated for occurrences of lates and call ins just because you didn't feel like coming to work, not because of a possible injury and FMLA. Yes, you can be terminated, even though there is no published attendance policy.

This is all you really need to know about that case.


"UPS matched Haefling's escalating number of absences with escalating levels of disciplinary measures.   The disciplinary measures initially were limited to oral reprimands and warning letters.   Despite repeated reprimands and warnings, Haefling's attendance failed to improve.   UPS eventually issued Haefling a suspension on September 26, 1994, and a final warning on November 10, 1994.   On December 27, 1994, UPS terminated Haefling for excessive absenteeism and for violating the November 10, 1994, final warning.

In response to his termination, Haefling filed a grievance pursuant to a collective bargaining agreement and continued to work for UPS during the resolution of this grievance.   Following a hearing before the grievance board on this matter, the termination was reduced to yet another final warning and Haefling was offered a second “last chance” to improve his attendance."


Repeated verbal and written warnings, suspension, two final warnings, and a "last chance" agreement

issued by a panel. It's sad to say.... but, he had other options and wouldn't have lost his job.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

@TheBrownNote

However, just like any other issue, it is incumbent upon UPS (or the teamsters) to include it in the contract

Umm.... No.

We don't want that in the contract.

I've dealt with white paper contracts that attendance policy's are enumerated in the contract.

4 infractions in a 9 month period = warning letter.

5 infractions in a 9 month period = suspension

6 infractions in a 9 month period = termination.

And, end of story.


Every case is based on its merits and we have flexibility.

The purpose of discipline is to correct behavior.... not fire people.

 

[eats packages]

They had to match a non-qualifying absense with each disciplinary step along the way which is not related to protected ones such as sick days, fmla, jury duty.

That this fact is difficult to find from the ruling is just lawyer's doing what they do best: Obfuscating everything to allow room for interpretation even after their case is won.

If i was this poor sod I would just limp my way into work with the neck problem and let them deal with it. We've all done it, best part about this job is there is no productive standard. If they want broken bodies give them a broken body (that refuses to leave).
Thankfully FMLA had gotten way better.

 

[toonertoo]

How DARE YOU display personal responsibility in your everyday life!

I just do not understand. If its bad out, you leave early. I had an hour drive, if it was bad I left an hour or more early, sometimes it was not enough, but at least I tried. Doctor appt, early, dentist early. Meeting a friend, early. Being late puts you, and possibly others behind. I hate being behind, especially at work, ruined the whole day.

 

[toonertoo]

@toonertoo ???
@Operational needs ???

JS, help a brotha out!

I flashed you, did you see it>

 

[BigUnionGuy]

I just do not understand. If its bad out, you leave early. I had an hour drive, if it was bad I left an hour or more early, sometimes it was not enough, but at least I tried. Doctor appt, early, dentist early. Meeting a friend, early. Being late puts you, and possibly others behind. I hate being behind, especially at work, ruined the whole day.

Pay no attention to @Wally

When we need a cool animated gif.... he will chime in.

 

[tadpole]

The Steward didn't back you up because there is nothing to back you up on. You were late.

It's simple. Put your bag in your package car. That is the only thing you do off the clock. Then grab your DIAD, punch in and be at the PCM on time. After the PCM, download EDD, grab your call tags and your follow ups. Then proceed to your package car and start your day.

I agree with the other dude, to an extent. In my building you have to walk 2 minutes from where you get your diad to where the pcm is. And if you pick up your diad, it takes about a minute to punch in. If you try to punch in right before your start time, you shouldn't be late because of the computer's log in process.

 

[Wally]

Pay no attention to @Wally

When we need a cool animated gif.... he will chime in.

I just do not understand. If its bad out, you leave early. I had an hour drive, if it was bad I left an hour or more early, sometimes it was not enough, but at least I tried. Doctor appt, early, dentist early. Meeting a friend, early. Being late puts you, and possibly others behind. I hate being behind, especially at work, ruined the whole day.

I blame his parents!

 

[UnionStrong]

I just do not understand. If its bad out, you leave early. I had an hour drive, if it was bad I left an hour or more early, sometimes it was not enough, but at least I tried. Doctor appt, early, dentist early. Meeting a friend, early. Being late puts you, and possibly others behind. I hate being behind, especially at work, ruined the whole day.

You feel like you’re chasing your tail all day.

 

[Trucker Clock]

I agree with the other dude, to an extent. In my building you have to walk 2 minutes from where you get your diad to where the pcm is. And if you pick up your diad, it takes about a minute to punch in. If you try to punch in right before your start time, you shouldn't be late because of the computer's log in process.

There is a difference between punching in and your scheduled start time.

At your scheduled start time, you should be punched in and at the PCM. Sounds to me like you should be punching in 2 minutes early on your walk to the PCM, so that you can be there ready to start your day, punched in, at your scheduled start time.

Or do you feel that you should be paid for that 2 minute walk to the PCM?

 

[Wally]

There is a difference between punching in and your scheduled start time.

At your scheduled start time, you should be punched in and at the PCM. Sounds to me like you should be punching in 2 minutes early on your walk to the PCM, so that you can be there ready to start your day, punched in, at your scheduled start time.

Or do you feel that you should be paid for that 2 minute walk to the PCM?

No, what he is saying is the diad should start time from when you start using it. It can finish booting up after it punches you in. You can be on time but the diad makes you late. Shouldn't be.

Is the diad punching us out first, then shutting down? I bet it is.

 

[Trucker Clock]

the diad should start time from when you start using it.

I agree, but he is also saying something different.

You can be on time but the diad makes you late.

He would be late anyway. He wants to punch in at his start time and then walk the 2 minutes to the PCM. Being late to the PCM could be considered late.

In my building you have to walk 2 minutes from where you get your diad to where the pcm is.

 

[tadpole]

There is a difference between punching in and your scheduled start time.

At your scheduled start time, you should be punched in and at the PCM. Sounds to me like you should be punching in 2 minutes early on your walk to the PCM, so that you can be there ready to start your day, punched in, at your scheduled start time.

Or do you feel that you should be paid for that 2 minute walk to the PCM?

If I am on time, trying to punch in, but the computer makes me wait to log in then punch in. I shouldn't be late.

Yes I do think I should be paid for that 2 minute walk, in principle. Imagine if it was a 20 minute walk. The company requires you to grab the diad from point A and then walk to point B. Why should that be unpaid time?

 

[MrBates]

We got 2 guys who call out all the time and they get a simple final warning , but a third guy has like 20 days of bad attendance and might go to panel. whats up with that?

When it comes to bad attendance, management will eventually get you. The first thing that gets pulled up at panel when there is problem with an employee is his/her attendance.

If you have perfect attendance, (no lates use sick days properly), you have strong immunity if a manager has it out for you. It pretty much guarantees you a job for life as long as you don't steal anything. I've seen a guy with a 5 sporh get his job back after panel because he was never late to work!

 

[Trucker Clock]

If I am on time, trying to punch in, but the computer makes me wait to log in then punch in. I shouldn't be late.

If you’re trying to punch in exactly at your start time, and still have that 2 minute walk to the PCM, you’re late.

Yes I do think I should be paid for that 2 minute walk

You go ahead and fight for that. I’ll continue to fight for things that really matter.

 

[tadpole]

If you’re trying to punch in exactly at your start time, and still have that 2 minute walk to the PCM, you’re late.



You go ahead and fight for that. I’ll continue to fight for things that really matter.

I'm not so fired up about the issue that I'd want to fight about it. It was a bigger issue last year when you had to sign in with your upsers ID/PW and it sometimes it wouldn't connect. I accept that not everyone would agree with me because it's only 2 minutes. But I don't appreciate your attitude.

Another annoying thing:
Anybody notice that if you happen to punch out for your lunch or break right as the minute is changing, when you push start break it says you've already taken 1 minute of break immediately.

 

[TSB]

@TheBrownNote



Umm.... No.

We don't want that in the contract.

I've dealt with white paper contracts that attendance policy's are enumerated in the contract.

4 infractions in a 9 month period = warning letter.

5 infractions in a 9 month period = suspension

6 infractions in a 9 month period = termination.

And, end of story.


Every case is based on its merits and we have flexibility.

The purpose of discipline is to correct behavior.... not fire people.

It would seem in this matter that even after progressive discipline the behavior was not corrected so...

 

[Redtag]

He may have been able to get intermittent FMLA for his "neck injury" days off, but he still had an attendance problem.

UPS eventually terminated Haefling's employment as a result of his excessive absenteeism and his failure to abide by UPS's attendance policy.   During the period leading up to the termination of Haefling's employment, the attendance records for Haefling maintained by UPS indicate that he was absent from work at least thirty-two of the 257 days he was scheduled to work (an absence rate of approximately twelve percent).   The district court relied on Haefling's personal diary to establish Haefling's attendance rate for this same period.   This diary, which purportedly contained Haefling's notes on his own attendance, off-set some of the absences contained in UPS's attendance records.   However, the diary still indicated that Haefling missed twenty-five scheduled work days, which, in part, constituted seventeen occurrences.   In examining the two hundred day period immediately preceding the termination of Haefling's employment, the district court found that Haefling missed eighteen days on eleven occurrences for reasons ranging from heat exhaustion, to a suspended license, to the flu.   Of those eighteen absences, only seven days and five occurrences are attributed to Haefling's neck injury according to the district court's reading of Haefling's diary.


And we were basically talking about being terminated for occurrences of lates and call ins just because you didn't feel like coming to work, not because of a possible injury and FMLA. Yes, you can be terminated, even though there is no published attendance policy.

That case went though the courts on 1994 FMLA prior to the 2009 and 2013 changes, we now have what's called intermittent FMLA that provides weeks of intermittent leave that the company can not subject to discipline. Since intermittent FMLA is a thing now if a employee has a Dr. Approved condition that requires intermittently missing work there is nothing the company can do about absences that are caused by the condition. It's important for the employee to also know not all FMLA is certified as needing interment absences, the Dr needs to specifically check that box and the range of dates. If permanent then it needs recertification periodically

It's not that difficult for a smart person of questionable ethics to get a Dr. To sign off on intermittent FMLA. Then All the individual has to do is make sure the absence is always related to the serious medical condition.

POST 2009 Haefling would have intermittent FMLA for his neck and every call in he would have said his neck was the cause and it's FMLA protected and he would still be working here.


However, yes for people without intermittent FMLA there is a attendance guideline and for most of us it should not be a problem to make it to work on time and show up daily

 

[Trucker Clock]

It's not that difficult for a smart person of questionable ethics to get a Dr. To sign off on intermittent FMLA. Then All the individual has to do is make sure the absence is always related to the serious medical condition.

So they have to lie. I get it.