oldngray
nowhere special
You need to read that again, along with quotes from other founding fathers. You can't just yank a few quotes out of context.
Income Inequality
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BrownArmy
Well-Known Member
We'll have to agree to disagree.
I understand where you're coming from.
But it's not a question of the have-nots blaming the haves, it's a question of opportunity.
I'd like to think that the world was that simple, where just by hard work and boot-strap-pulling every single person could make it. But that's not the case.
You pat yourself on the back, telling yourself that you 'made it', due to your own version of GRIT and DETERMINATION.
That's about half true.
You view your success solely in terms of your will, grit, and personal determination, and you view others' success or lack thereof on the same terms (i.e. if someone else didn't succeed like you, they must lack GRIT and DETERMINATION).
Where you and I disagree is that you assume there's a 'level playing field', wherein every single person has the exact same chance, and failure is simply due to personal shortcoming.
I don't think that's correct.
I think there are inherent biases built into the system, and that some people are behind the 'eight-ball' from the get-go.
If that makes you want to label me as a 'leftist', or a 'liberal', go right ahead.
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corporations pump out propaganda that says "if u dont succeed, its your fault" so that people wont look else where for other sources of blame, like the economic system or government policy or whatever.
oprah really does this with her "positive thinking" and self help gurus do this too. not to say self help is all bad, but some of it is definitely snake oil. i lot of young people my age get sucked into this, they think their problems are all personal, and everything else is free of blame. its obviously not true, and its kinda sad.
people who are born in rich families are way more likely to "succeed" than people born in poor families and theres lots of studies on this. its a no brainer. free or affordable college would help level the playing field.
Overpaid Union Thug
Well-Known Member
Opportunity is nothing without determination and the willingness to work a little harder and smarter than the next guy. People that are willing to do that move up. Not all but some and some move faster and farther than others. The ones that don't move at all are the type that sit around and blame others and want the government to solve all of their problems.
And I never pat myself on the back. There is nothing to pat myself on the back for. All I did was apply at UPS twice before getting hired and then work two, sometimes three, jobs until my number was called to become a driver. It was pretty simple. I personally know plenty of people that did much much better, allot that ended up about like me, and even more that did less. Well, can you guess which group complains the most? The latter. They cite the same BS you liberals are always on here using for an excuse and it's so sad.
americans work more hours than most other developed countries, u could say they are over worked. they also take on the most risk of any developed country with cost of college education. i agree u guys dont protest enough, its less than europe right now for sure.
and anyways with the automation, outsourcing of jobs, and immigration and feminization, there are certainly less opportunities regardless of work ethic
realbrown1
Annoy a liberal today. Hit them with facts.
You clearly don't grasp the concept of freedom.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item...ck_pay_without_hurting_their_careers_20140723
truthdig is one hell of a website for news
Intern definition: a student or trainee who works, sometimes without pay, at a trade or occupation in order to gain work experience.
One recent study found that over half of graduating college seniors had held some type of internship during school. That’s more than double the rate a similar study found two decades ago, and doesn’t even include graduates, adults switching fields or high school students.
the Department of Labor doesn’t aggressively pursue complaints,
Most unpaid interns do not have workers’ rights. Without pay, interns aren’t considered “employees” under the Civil Rights Act, and laws enforced by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission do not apply to them. Right now, unpaid interns are protected against sexual harassment only in places that have proactively closed this legal loophole – Oregon, Washington D.C. and New York City.
young adults born to poor families are less able to accept internships because they can't afford to work for free.
this is where the american economy is headed : to a form of precarious low paying jobs. neo feudalism
truthdig is one hell of a website for news
Intern definition: a student or trainee who works, sometimes without pay, at a trade or occupation in order to gain work experience.
One recent study found that over half of graduating college seniors had held some type of internship during school. That’s more than double the rate a similar study found two decades ago, and doesn’t even include graduates, adults switching fields or high school students.
the Department of Labor doesn’t aggressively pursue complaints,
Most unpaid interns do not have workers’ rights. Without pay, interns aren’t considered “employees” under the Civil Rights Act, and laws enforced by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission do not apply to them. Right now, unpaid interns are protected against sexual harassment only in places that have proactively closed this legal loophole – Oregon, Washington D.C. and New York City.
young adults born to poor families are less able to accept internships because they can't afford to work for free.
this is where the american economy is headed : to a form of precarious low paying jobs. neo feudalism
lol
UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
Both of my kids did unpaid and paid internships while they were in college. The experience they gained was invaluable.
no surprised alot of people do, ive heard lots of reports on this.
but why not get paid and gain experience? these are not hard times for corporate america, actually just the opposite
Germany pays its interns. Why can’t the US?
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinio...ajam&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow
A similar loss of “opportunity” occurred in the U.S. in the 1920s and 1930s. The passage of several state and federal laws culminating in the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act stripped minors of the right to sell their labor, threatening to send families who were dependent on their children’s wages into an even darker corner of poverty. Prominent figures such as Sen. William H. King of Utah warned that that the reform was really a “scheme of the Bolsheviks to have the state take charge of the children.”
Unpaid labor, like child labor, is a resource that developed countries have no valid reason to use. Technically, the U.S. has a law protecting interns, but it is antiquated (unlike in Germany, in the U.S. there is no legal definition of “intern,” only “trainee”), is feebly framed and is rarely enforced. By sanctioning unpaid internships in the for-profit sector if they meet certain subjective criteria, the U.S. effectively puts the onus on interns to prove in court that they were treated like employees.
As Ross Perlin writes in his 2012 book “Intern Nation,” the move has shifted a significant financial burden to the worker by “transitioning from training programs and entry-level jobs to internships.” In exchange, young workers earn vague, nonmonetary rewards such as experience and contacts — social capital that was once conferred on apprentices or new hires in addition to rather than in place of wages.
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinio...ajam&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=SocialFlow
A similar loss of “opportunity” occurred in the U.S. in the 1920s and 1930s. The passage of several state and federal laws culminating in the 1938 Fair Labor Standards Act stripped minors of the right to sell their labor, threatening to send families who were dependent on their children’s wages into an even darker corner of poverty. Prominent figures such as Sen. William H. King of Utah warned that that the reform was really a “scheme of the Bolsheviks to have the state take charge of the children.”
Unpaid labor, like child labor, is a resource that developed countries have no valid reason to use. Technically, the U.S. has a law protecting interns, but it is antiquated (unlike in Germany, in the U.S. there is no legal definition of “intern,” only “trainee”), is feebly framed and is rarely enforced. By sanctioning unpaid internships in the for-profit sector if they meet certain subjective criteria, the U.S. effectively puts the onus on interns to prove in court that they were treated like employees.
As Ross Perlin writes in his 2012 book “Intern Nation,” the move has shifted a significant financial burden to the worker by “transitioning from training programs and entry-level jobs to internships.” In exchange, young workers earn vague, nonmonetary rewards such as experience and contacts — social capital that was once conferred on apprentices or new hires in addition to rather than in place of wages.
sailfish
Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone
It's hard enough finding a job when you're fresh out of school and everyone wants someone with so much experience. It turns into one big circle where you can't get a job because you don't have experience and you don't have experience because you can't get a job.
An unpaid internship is a compromise where one comes to terms with the fact that they don't stand a chance in a competitive job market without real world skills, and they understand that no one wants to pay someone if they're not worth the wage yet. If you offer to do an unpaid internship while in college, you open so many more opportunities for yourself.
Then once you graduate, you have four years or more of relative work experience, not only making you much more competitive but allowing you to command more in wages and positions.
An unpaid internship is a compromise where one comes to terms with the fact that they don't stand a chance in a competitive job market without real world skills, and they understand that no one wants to pay someone if they're not worth the wage yet. If you offer to do an unpaid internship while in college, you open so many more opportunities for yourself.
Then once you graduate, you have four years or more of relative work experience, not only making you much more competitive but allowing you to command more in wages and positions.
i agree with u that it might make you a more attractive employee, but at what point does competition and competing become a bad thing? america has unprecedented levels of student debt, and now its expected that students have to work for free. people who are poor and middle class might not be able to afford to work for free. so i think internships are biased towards the rich.
if american workers really wanted to be competitive, then they would work for similar wages as they do in china which is $0.25 / hr, 16 hour days, and every day of the month. they would also get rid of regulations and allow corporations to pollute as much as they like...being competitive is not always a good thing.
theres all kinds of reports of internships not being useful, and internships violating labor law and there being lawsuits started. so its hard to say what kind of experience some people are getting out of it.
on top of that, i think if nothing is done, then unpaid labor like internships will increase because of the loss of good paying jobs in america. why not be paid, and get experience working? because the market wont bear paying people for work anymore, and companies know people are desperate and will work for free.
UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)
Well-Known Member
My son is on the first stop of a 3 year rotational training program for an aerospace defense company. He is being paid slightly less than the industry standard but the difference is made up through subsidized housing. Upon completion of the program he has the option of staying with the same company (for more $$$) or explore options elsewhere. The training he is receiving and experience he is gaining are invaluable.
good, but u get my point i hope.
we have a race to the bottom happening in developed countries economies in terms of corporate taxes, real wages, etc.
sailfish
Master of Karate and Friendship for Everyone
How is competition a bad thing? Would you prefer it if everything in your daily life was serviced by mediocrity? Companies know they'll never get the best for $0.25 because the best would tell them where they can stick it.
Those who take low or unpaid internships know they're far from the best where they currently stand and are willing to put in the time to change that instead of spending four years "demanding" all the things they think they're entitled to only to lose on the interview to the guy who took the internship.
competition is not always a good thing, if u use your imagination you can think of situations where u would not want to compete. competition can be a bad thing, or it can be a good thing.
do you think americans want to lower their wages to $0.25 /hr or the comparable low wages in the 3rd world just so they can stay "competitive"? thats whats happening in the US labor market anyways because of a loss of jobs is pushing down wages of workers.
i dont think an american worker who charges $10/hr is 40x better than a 3rd world worker who charges $0.25/hr, and I think the corporations agree because otherwise they wouldnt be there in the first place.
companies have been leaving america for cheap 3rd world labor for many decades now...i suppose they consider it the best at many things, otherwise they would not still be there. europeans have the best working conditions in the world, but that doesnt mean their product is that much better than americans. i dont necessarily think theres a correlation between quality of labor and cost of labor, but there obviously can be.
but i think students who are $30,000 in debt working for free at internships is a sign of economic mediocrity; and that i dont like.
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