Obamas Preacher vs. Bushes Preacher??

[diesel96]

Oh my, I must have struck a nerve. You are correct that I don't ignore or dismiss truths. That would be why I post them everytime I reply to one of your nonsense responses. When you are ready to post some truths of your own I will be glad to debate them with you. I have simply corrected where you are wrong.
I've notice and so have others, when backed to a corner and confronted with opposing views and truths, you cowering defensive instincts is to insult people's inteligence.




If he knew what these people were going to do on our soil I doubt he would have done so. They brought the fight to our soil, and now we are eliminating them on theirs.
Even with alzhiemers, Reagon would be smart enough to persue Bin Laden's Org, not war with Iraq which again,you need to be reminded they had nothing to do with 9/11.


I think some misfits with turbins and a few AK47s should think twice before engaging us on our own land. We weren't actively pursuing them until they decided to kill some 3,000 Americans here. Although in hindsight we probably should have been.
I wouldn't call our neo-con leadership "actively pursuing" by going into Afgh. and Pak. with a half a$ attitude hunting the "misfits" but saving the "shock and awe" for Iraq with other intentions of setting up long term occupation and bases.



Exactly, we have the responsibility to erradicate those that wish to do us harm, and support countries that believe in civility like Israel.
Part of erradicating is understanding the core reason of hostility which seems inconprehensible to you. We all agree on civility but we don't have the responsibility to support Isreal's ileagle expansion on the west bank.


350-400 million what? Do you have any proof to support your claim? Based on your previous replies I am guessing you don't, but I want to see your so called "truth".

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

 

[brett636]

Tourist,

you posted:


These are exactly the talking points of Rush Limbaugh everyday that he is on the radio. Its called the "STRAWMAN" defense.

Pres Bush uses the same tactics all the time.. The old, "if your not with us your against us" routine.

Listen, this is the United States of America. By saying that, I employ the most powerful document in the history of the world.

The Constitution.

THERE IS NOTHING IN THE CONSTITUTION that sez I must agree with all the president of the United States sez or does.

Indeed, what makes this country great is in fact DISSENTION.

Otherwise, we would not have a democracy but a dictatorship.

Many of our founding fathers had this debate many years ago for those people who believe they must follow the actions of the president like a fresh born puppy oblivious to the world.

Thomas Jefferson said:


Teddy Roosevelt said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]<B>

If only you Rush listeners would understand the hyperbole you are sold each and every day, you would be able to distinquish between patriotism and loyalty.

The strawman defense is a simple trick that "forces" you to take the side of the speaker because the alternative leaves you in a bad position.

There is no option given that can satisfy a desending opinon.

Therefore, the arguement is won based on the lack of reasonable difference. People need to learn the tactics of the right winged media and the use of the strawman on the american people.

For me, this is a great country, and I think the mere asking of the question is silly. Rush uses this same question every day on his radio program.

Power corrupts, but absolute power absolutely corrupts the people in charge.

Attacking a fellow citizens patriotism is no different than the germans attacking fellow germans who helped the jews escape germany.

The soldiers in Iraq arent fighting to protect the constitution, it was never attacked by Iraq or threatened. No iraqi with a turban (as quoted) is considering coming to america and kiling anyone.

My free speech is protected by LAW and LAW only.

The founding fathers gave me this right, and NO SOLDIER can take it away.

My opinion is protected speech, as well as everyone else on this blog.

I am sick of hearing about soldiers fighting in iraq to protect my free speech, however, my speech isnt under attack from terrorists, it under attack by republicans.

The only thing defending my right to free speech is called the LAW of the land.

Its time to respect this right.

I respect everyones opinion on this blog, and I debate all comers.

This is the problem with america today. The republicans have divided this country into two parts.

They continue to drive the wedge between the parties in order to try and maintain power. RUSH himself declares that there needs to be PARTISANSHIP in politics and he disagrees with BI-PARTISAN cooperation.

Why do you think this is???

Its so those who are the most gulible of americans continue to believe the message of "those people", "you people" which is the true Elitest mentality.

Rush uses the terms: you people, those people all day long over and over, and yet, posters here use the same terms on this blog without knowing they have been brainwashed.

The terms YOU PEOPLE and THOSE PEOPLE are separation terms intending on insuring subconcious distintions. Then, those who are listeners will separate themselves from those who are on the opposite side of the strawman.

Its all brainwashing folks.

Try loving your country and accepting the good and the bad.

Praise the good and call out the Bad.

This is the American way.

Peace



[/FONT]

You couldn't be more right that those soldiers over there in Iraq are fighting for your right to disagree with them, but I've never heard Rush say that you are unpatriotic if you don't believe everything he has to say.

Now in your case you are not just disagreeing with the President, but you are lying about him and our military in order to push your screwed up agenda. Just like how you lied about moderator conduct on these forums, you refuse to post true data about any of your claims. Its the sign of a Marxist where you are attempting to rewrite history in order to make your ideas seem plausible.

 

[brett636]

I've notice and so have others, when backed to a corner and confronted with opposing views and truths, you cowering defensive instincts is to insult people's inteligence.

Oh, you mean like the first two sentences of your prior post?

Hey Brett, let me ask you something, do you take off your clown make up before you hover over your computer?
Your little child like small minded insults have no correlation to the REAL reason why we were attacked.

Just to let you know, as long as I have the truth on my side I will never be backed into a corner by you or any other rhetoric spewing leftist.

Even with alzhiemers, Reagon would be smart enough to persue Bin Laden's Org, not war with Iraq which again,you need to be reminded they had nothing to do with 9/11.

Even with alzhiemers Reagan would have taken Osama as President when he was handed to him on a silver platter. Clinton turned down the opportunity to do so which could have kept this whole debacle from occurring.

I wouldn't call our neo-con leadership "actively pursuing" by going into Afgh. and Pak. with a half a$ attitude hunting the "misfits" but saving the "shock and awe" for Iraq with other intentions of setting up long term occupation and bases.

Just remember a dead terrorist is a good terrorist no matter where they are from.

Part of erradicating is understanding the core reason of hostility which seems inconprehensible to you. We all agree on civility but we don't have the responsibility to support Isreal's ileagle expansion on the west bank.

We understand the core reason of hostility. Israel exists therefore it must be attacked. This is the mindset of the middle east. If Israel did nothing they would still be pummelled with suicide bombers, attacks from Hamas, and threats of erradication from its neighbors simply because it is there. No amount of actions and or inactions will suffice when dealing with these seventh century throwbacks.

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

So you meant dollars and not bombs attached to women and children. This may be a surprise to you, but war is expensive, and protecting our national interests abroad along with our national security does not carry a price that we aren't willing to pay. Oh, BTW, take a look at social entitlement spending, its still more than the military despite the Iraq war.

 

[tourists24]

Pres Bush uses the same tactics all the time.. The old, "if your not with us your against us" routine.

This is not at all what I was accusing you of. My only concern is that Ive not read ANYTHING positive out of you. You cant stand the Republican party and the president. I get it.

Listen, this is the United States of America. By saying that, I employ the most powerful document in the history of the world.
The Constitution.

Amen to that brother. Im with you there.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The strawman defense is a simple trick that "forces" you to take the side of the speaker because the alternative leaves you in a bad position.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] I come in with the knowledge that Im not going have you come over to the dark side...lol[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For me, this is a great country, and I think the mere asking of the question is silly. Rush uses this same question every day on his radio program.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] DING DING DING.... this is the main thing Ive been wanting to hear from you. It may seem silly to you, but I was genuinely under the opinion you hated the country. With everything you present being so negative, a lot of people see the same thing. I apologize if you felt labeled and I was wrong. Yes, that was a conservative apologizing.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am sick of hearing about soldiers fighting in iraq to protect my free speech, however, my speech isnt under attack from terrorists, it under attack by republicans.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Couldnt disagree with that more.... I think both parties are guilty of this, not just Republicans... plus oh yes, there are terrorists in Iraq that want all of us dead[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The only thing defending my right to free speech is called the LAW of the land.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Its time to respect this right.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I respect everyones opinion on this blog, and I debate all comers.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I thought that is what we are doing now[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is the problem with america today. The republicans have divided this country into two parts.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]They continue to drive the wedge between the parties in order to try and maintain power. RUSH himself declares that there needs to be PARTISANSHIP in politics and he disagrees with BI-PARTISAN cooperation.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] What makes you think that the Democats are not partisan. They are partisan as long as they get what they want. Congress itself IS partisan; again both parties guilty. Im not brainwashed with Limbaugh, but he is right here.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Why do you think this is???[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rush uses the terms: you people, those people all day long over and over, and yet, posters here use the same terms on this blog without knowing they have been brainwashed.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] OR one might say that someone like Rush is saying exactly what they were feeling and it validates their opinion, not the same as brainwashing
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Praise the good and call out the Bad.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ive heard a lot of the bad,,, I just wanted to hear some good from you. This post does clear up a lot of my misconceptions about you. Just do me a favor, if you ever see a post by me, please dont assume Im trying to offend or brainwash you either. Im just wanting an honest exchange in opposing ideas. The way I see it, we want the same thing; just doing it in different ways[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Peace[/FONT]

 

[av8torntn]

Teddy Roosevelt said:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]<B>[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

Just thought I would give you another Teddy Roosevelt said since you seem to like his words.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds can do better. The credit actually belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who , at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and empty souls who know neither victory or defeat."

This is mainly from memory so I'm sure someone will be along shortly to correct any errors here.

 

[wkmac]

Excuse me and pardon the interruption.

Brownshark,

In another thread you posted a piece by Patrick Cockburn and I thought you might be interested in this radio interview.

http://antiwar.com/radio/2008/04/14/patrick-cockburn-3/

Just wanted to pass on in case you were.

Carry on!

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

I'm still waiting on you Lefties to attack our enemies with the same ferocity that you attack our own country and military but I realize that I shouldn't hold my breath on that because, much like when I asked for alternatives on how to deal with Iraq and terrorism, I will probably never hear it.

 

[av8torntn]

Excuse me and pardon the interruption.

Brownshark,

In another thread you posted a piece by Patrick Cockburn and I thought you might be interested in this radio interview.

http://antiwar.com/radio/2008/04/14/patrick-cockburn-3/

Just wanted to pass on in case you were.

Carry on!

Lol great find. If you are interested in Al Sadr you should listen to this for some great background info. Al Sadr plays on his fathers name very well. He is seen as a very powerful leader of the poor and uneducated. We used to joke that he was the leader of the Iraqi democratic party. This causes a serious split in the te faction allowing the Sunni the ability to retain some power. You should hear how some of the educated te talk about this guy but at the same time you can tell they are scared of him because of his control of the Mehdi Militia.

I often wonder why if this man has so much control why did he flee to Iran.


For some reason it edited out the religious sect of Al Sadr. I'm sure if you are interested in this subject you can figure it out.

 

[BrownShark]

Hey Boot,

I found some more "cleared" heroes for your collection of military superstars falsely accused! LOL

Raymond L. Girouard

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation, search
Raymond L. Girouard is a Staff Sergeant of the 3rd Brigade Combat Team, 101st Airborne Division. He was found not guilty by court martial jury in Fort Campbell, Kentucky of premeditated murder and conspiracy to commit murder [1], though he was convicted of negligent homicide as well as obstruction of justice and conspiracy to obstruct justice.[2]
Co-defendants Private First Class Corey R. Clagett and Specialist William B. Hunsaker both received reduced sentences for their testimony in connection to the accused execution of three male detainees on 9 May, 2006. On June 21, Specialist Juston R. Graber, at that time 20, was charged with premeditated murder, attempted premeditated murder, conspiracy to commit murder and making a false official statement. Graber has since been given immunity for what was termed a "mercy killing," in return for his testimony against Girouard and the other defendants. The police in Salahudin Province are investigating. On September 2, 2006, Army investigator Lt. Col. James P. Daniel Jr. recommended the death penalty for the soldiers involved in the killing.

[edit] The Accusers

Pvt. William B. Hunsaker and Pfc. Corey R. Clagett, have testified in court that Girouard told them to cut off the detainee's plastic zip ties, order them to run, then shoot them. The defense is maintaining that commanders gave an order to kill all military-aged males the unit encountered on an island in Tharthar Lake, 60 miles northwest of Baghdad, a suspected Al Qaeda base. [3]
The star government witness was SPC Bradley L. Mason, of Altus, Oklahoma.[citation needed] The 20-year-old soldier was the first to insinuate to American authorities that the killings of three Iraqis during Operation Iron Triangle were premeditated murder instead of combat. He made his first statement to the Army's Criminal Investigation Division 60 days after the incident, after his lengthy--and failed--attempt to get out of both Iraq and the Army.
Upon searching his bunk in connection with the investigation, the Army found thousands of photographs depicting child pornography on his computer. Mason also admitted during the Article 32 that he had told others of a desire to go to Thailand and engage in sex with "nine-year-old girls." He narrowly missed having three Article 15's added to his record in Iraq before the incident, due largely to the influence and help of SSG Girouard, who advocated on his behalf to Army commanders. Mason has also been given full immunity for all charges and crimes in return for his testimony, and was recently promoted to the rank of E-4, or Specialist.
During the Article 32, Mason admitted lying under oath in several statements to the Army regarding the events in the case.
Also testifying from Girouard's squad for the government are Specialist Juston R. Graber and Sergeant Leonel Lemus.

Peace

 

[BrownShark]

Just thought I would give you another Teddy Roosevelt said since you seem to like his words.

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds can do better. The credit actually belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who , at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and empty souls who know neither victory or defeat."

This is mainly from memory so I'm sure someone will be along shortly to correct any errors here.

Av8,

this historic quote is exactly the quote that the military personnel doing the job correctly can take pride in.

I , as well as millions of other americans believe that our soldiers who fight bravely and represent the american way of justice, integrity, honor and bravery shall be blessed for life for the sacrifice they make each and everyday.

Those who murder by excuse or execute by deception bring not only disgrace to the uniform, but to our country, our democracy, our reputation globaly and to each of us as citizens...SHAME.

Those military men and women who are in the dirt while you and I argue foreign policy are the heroes. Neither one of us will bear a medal on our chest for disagreeing.

Understanding that the men and women who volunteered for a duty above all others are merely pawns for the corrupt and power hungry who use human beings for monetary gain for a few.

Peace

 

[BrownShark]

Boot,

Here are some more wonderful representations of the american military:

(CBS/AP) Three U.S. soldiers have been charged in the drowning death of an Iraqi man who was forced to jump off a bridge into the Tigris River north of Baghdad in January, the military said Friday.

A fourth soldier faces charges for allegedly ordering a second Iraqi to jump. That man survived.

Two of the soldiers are charged with manslaughter, assault, conspiracy, false statements and obstruction, according to officials of the 4th Infantry Division. A third is charged with manslaughter and making a false statement, and the fourth is charged with assault and making a false statement.

The soldiers are assigned to the 3rd Brigade at Fort Carson, in Colorado. It is part of the 4th Infantry, based at Fort Hood, Texas.

The New York Times reports a new report by the Army's inspector general says military prison training and policy contributed to the abuses seen at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad, but does not report systemic abuse or name top officials.

The ongoing investigations into several deaths of men in U.S. custody are one facet of the probes of prisoner abuse. The probes became public in late April when CBS News' 60 Minutes II broadcast photographs of the abuse at Abu Ghraib.

In other cases:


Chief Warrant Officers Lewis Welshofer and Jeff Williams, also from Fort Carlson, were reprimanded and forbidden from conducting further interrogations after the death of Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush. Mowhoush died from asphyxiation due to smothering and chest compression, according to Pentagon documents obtained by the Denver Post. The newspaper has reported that the military plans to charge Welshofer and Williams.

A U.S. soldier suspected of killing an Iraqi man in Kufa appeared before a U.S military court in Baghdad for a pretrial hearing, the U.S. military said Friday. Rogelio M. Maynulet of the 1st Armored Division was charged June 12 with murder and dereliction of duty for the suspected killing of an Iraqi male May 21 near Kufa, south Baghdad.

Peace

 

[BrownShark]

Boot,

Yet more marines charged with murder, see a pattern here?


US troops charged in Iraq deathEight members of the US military have been charged with the murder of an Iraqi civilian in April.

The accused are being held at the Marine Corps base in California Seven US marines and a navy corpsman have been charged with murder, conspiracy, assault, kidnapping and obstruction of justice, among other charges, over the death of an Iraqi in Hamdania, a village west of Baghdad.
The marines allegedly took a 52-year-old disabled man, Hashim Ibrahim Awad, from his house, shot him and then left a shovel by his body to make it appear that he had been planting a roadside bomb.
"The Marine Corps takes allegations of wrongdoing by its members very seriously and is committed to thoroughly investigating such allegations. The Marine Corps also prides itself on holding its members accountable for its actions," Marine Colonel Stewart Navarre said in Camp Pendleton, California, on Wednesday.
He added that he could not discuss the specifics of the case and said it "is critical to remember that the accused are presumed innocent".
Inappropriate methods
Defence lawyers have suggested that investigators got incriminating statements by using inappropriate interrogation methods.
All eight men face the possibility of the death penalty if convicted.

Navorre (C) said the marines will​

be held accountable​

In a separate case, the military said a fourth soldier had been charged with premeditated murder in connection with the shooting of three detainees in Iraq on May 9.
On Monday, the US military said three other soldiers had been charged with the killings and with threatening to kill a fellow soldier if he told authorities the truth about the case.

******

Hey man, I get it, its tough there, but there seems to be more than a few "bad apples" as a poster previously said in Iraq. This sounds like a systemic problem and not one of isolated incidents.

Sounds to me like the line between honor, duty and purpose is very blurred.

Peace.

 

[BrownShark]

Boot,

Hopefully, you wont try and defend this soldier:


U.S. soldier claims ‘gay panic’ made him kill
Guardsman says he shot Iraqi soldier after consensual sex
KEN SAIN
Friday, January 07, 2005


A North Carolina National Guard soldier claims he shot an Iraqi soldier 11 times and killed him last spring after the two men had consensual sex while on duty near Tikrit, Iraq, according to a court martial report released by the military to media outlets. Pvt. Federico Daniel Merida, 21, pled guilty to second-degree murder in the death of Falah Zaggam, a 17-year-old Iraqi national guardsman, military records claim. After officials began an investigation into the death, Merida, who is married and has a 2-year-old son, used a gay panic defense as one of his three excuses for the crime.
Merida was sentenced to 25 years in prison in September. The Los Angeles Times first reported the case in October, but it has been mostly overlooked by mainstream American media. The only other newspaper to do a major story on the case was in Merida’s home state of North Carolina last month.
When Merida claimed he killed Zaggam in a fit of rage after the two had consensual sex, he received a cool reception from military investigators.
“That’s what is fascinating about this case,” said Aaron Belkin, director of the Center for the Study of Sexual Minorities in the Military.
“About 20 years ago when America was much more homophobic than it is today, the ‘gay panic’ defense would have had a much higher chance of working, but it appears in this case that the officers or judges didn’t let him use that. That could indicate one small step forward for the military.”
Zaggam’s friends and family told the Los Angeles Times they believe Merida tried to rape Zaggam, and then killed him to cover up what he had done.
The Blade was unable to obtain a copy of the court martial report. The following is what the report claims happens, according to the L.A. Times and the Raleigh (N.C.) News & Observer.
Merida and Zaggam were alone on guard duty in a tower at a military base in Ad Dawr, near Tikrit last spring. Before their shift was over, Merida had shot Zaggam 11 times and threw his body off the tower. Witnesses reported hearing shots fired at 10:30 p.m. and then watched as a body fell from the tower.
“From the news accounts I read, it appeared to be premeditated,” said Jim Klimaski, a member of the Military Law Task Force. “It looks like he waived his rights and there was no lawyer present.
“I don’t know, but just from reading those news accounts it appears the military just wanted this case to go away. They had him in premeditation, but let him off with second-degree murder in exchange for a guilty plea.”

Three excuses
Merida first claimed that Zaggam had tried to rob him and he was forced to defend himself. When skeptical investigators continued to challenge that story, Merida then claimed that the Zaggam forced him to have sex.
The third excuse was the two men had consensual sex and then Zaggam tried to blackmail him, saying he would reveal the affair to Merida’s wife and officers.
The Times quoted Zaggam’s family as doubting that claim because the teen could not speak English and therefore could not make any claims to U.S. officials. They also said Zaggam was not a big man, and it was unlikely he could force Merida to do anything.
During the trial, according to the Times, Merida had witnesses testify that he was a victim of sexual abuse as a child and that might have led to his violent reaction.

Peace

 

[BrownShark]

To all,

One of the reasons for sharing this sample of military wrongdoings IS NOT to condemn the Us military.

In fact, what I have tried to do is show the realities of war and those realities are not pretty. While many of you who support not only this war but this Presidents agenda fail to see the true nature of war itself.

It makes good people do bad things.

Our men and women are put into a situation under a false pretense, then the mission changes and they adapt to it, then the mission changes and they try to adapt again, by the third change, they have had it with the policy and the anger and frustration seems to work its way out thru premeditated violence against the very people we are there to help.

I see those who feel "safer" post about how glorious our troops are fighting so we can be safe, but are we safer after attrocities are committed??

Will the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people be truly won if we condone the killing of innocent people over and over and over, then never hold them truly responsible??

The list of crimes go's on and on.....

When Boot claims they have been "cleared" there is a false sense of innocense given.

Convictions of lesser crimes are stilll convictions. Dead people are still dead no matter what level of jurisprudence was the result.

We as Americans have to shoulder the burden of these crimes against the Iraqi people.

When we send our troops abroad to a foriegn land, we expect them to act like americans and not american gangsters.

There is no excuse for these attrocities...NONE.

They are in IRAQI fighting in our name, our name as Americans.

This is not what AMERICANS do.

What got me started down this line of postings was a quote by TIEGUY, our resident 24 hr poster.

He said:

You are lucky that bush is president. If it was gore or kerry the terrorist would probably be over here killing and raping your family. But then you guys would probably prefer that over fighting them on foriegn soil.

This got me going. I was not participating in this debate until i read this.

Funny thing, he states that if the Pres was Gore or Kerry, the terrorist would probably be over here Killing my family and raping the women.

Instead, what he has is President Bush and the only foreign military force on a foriegn soil raping and killing families has been some members of the US Military.

Ironic or moronic??

These types of statements are the types of rhetoric that keeps us apart from finding the center of this argument.

The war is bad, we all know it.

It time to find a way out before it gets worse and more boys from our military find ways to vacation in LEVENWORTH.

Peace

 

[av8torntn]

Hey Liar

I see your parents must have let you play on the computer again. I am still waiting for the "facts and data" that you claim you were so heavily invested in when you falsely accused them of murdering baited targets and were all given ten year sentences.


Hey I can play the same game you are playing. Watch this. A brown cafe poster that goes by the name brownshark was convicted of raping a one year old child and sentenced to 25 years in prison. Hey look it even made the NY Times.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9E04E6DA133EE73BBC4E53DFBE668382669FDE



Well at least when I post a lie you are around to defend yourself.


You told me to ask you for this proof and you would post it for my fifth post I am still asking you for this proof and you are still posting things that are not even closely related to this false charge of murder you keep making. Post this proof of all these sniper teams that have been convicted of murder for baiting targets and all given ten year sentences. You made this false claim more than once. You claim you have proof. You say just ask for this proof. I ask for this proof. You are becoming a compulsive liar and now you try and change the subject. You have my attention now where is this proof. I even posted articles from al jeezera showing that these men were found not guilty of the murders you falsely accused them of. How about a public apology from you for your false accusations.

Lets see you have falsely stated that the US gives one million dollars to Iraqi families that have had someone die. Heck you could post proof of that while you are at it.


What it all comes down to is why do you feel you must lie to make your case? It would be easy for you if you just put in a little effort to get some facts to make your point. You make the choice to be a liar. Why? Maybe you would choose to answer that since you cannot seem to find your proof you said was so readily available. I personally think it is because you know that is the only way to make your point.

Well it has been a couple of weeks since you first posted this false claim maybe you just move in the slow lane. Nope I'm still pretty sure you are just another liar. So little girl next time you sneek into your parents room to play on their computer I'll be waiting for that proof that you promised.

 

[av8torntn]

To all,



It makes good people do bad things.
Another lie from BS. You cannot make a good person do a bad thing.

Our men and women are put into a situation under a false pretense, then the mission changes and they adapt to it, then the mission changes and they try to adapt again, by the third change, they have had it with the policy and the anger and frustration seems to work its way out thru premeditated violence against the very people we are there to help.


Wow you really have no clue what you are posting about. There were no false pretenses. Missions do change constantly and we are trained for that. That is a fact of life in the military.

I see those who feel "safer" post about how glorious our troops are fighting so we can be safe, but are we safer after attrocities are committed??

I think so.

Will the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people be truly won if we condone the killing of innocent people over and over and over, then never hold them truly responsible??

Another lie. You even posted cases where people have been convicted of crimes they commited. You even posted a article that had an Iraqi talk about how good American justice was.

The list of crimes go's on and on.....

When Boot claims they have been "cleared" there is a false sense of innocense given.

So they face an Article 32 hearing ,then a courts martial, then a trial before a judge and a jury and cleared, but Brown shark just knows they must still be guilty of murder.


There is no excuse for these attrocities...NONE.

Of course there is no excuse for crimes that are commited, but there is no excuse for you falsely accusing men of murder either.


The war is bad, we all know it.

How would you know it? I bet you do not know it at all.

It time to find a way out before it gets worse and more boys from our military find ways to vacation in LEVENWORTH.

How is that a reason to surrender to the terrorists in Iraq? Nevermind I know you will just lie again to try and justify a position.

Peace

 

[BrownShark]

Boot,

Ok, I get it, now your resorting to pure repetition to reinforce your claims that I am a liar.

You have been owned or Pzwnt.

Your claim that marines have been falsely charged is the lie.

All were C H A R G E D with murder. Whatever comes out of the article 32 is called jurisprudence and that I cannot deny, however, as i stated, being CHARGED with murder and then subsequently being convicted of lessers crimes because of the case facts that come to light doesnt "CLEAR" a marine.

Being convicted for planting evidence on a dead person who was shot "under" orders to bait and shoot is still a crime.

The whole concept of baiting and waiting is NOT the American way. This is the way of rogue elements of our military.

Get the point here BOOT.

We are there to bring stability and democracy to a people victimized by a war that should have never been waged for 5 years now.

There is a pattern of marines and soldiers who have been CHARGED with murdering innocent iraqis as I posted. NOTHING can be said to the contrary.

Saying this doesnt condemn the whole military. Systemic problems exist in Iraq that are causing these killings.

This is the point.

You responded to something I said like this:

It makes good people do bad things.
Another lie from BS. You cannot make a good person do a bad thing.

I can only assume by your position here that you then believe that the marines who have been charged of murdering innocent iraqis were bad people to start with.

At the end of the day, no matter what came of the charges, convictions for crimes are NOT WHAT the american people sent our troops to iraq to get involved in. NO american wants to see our troops spending 1, 10 or 100 years in prison for a crime they would have never committed had they never entered Iraq.

Understanding basic jurisprudence tells you that a prosecutor will adjust his case in order to maximise the odds of a conviction. In Haditha, those involved were CHARGED with murder. As the case developed, some of the marines were not "CLEARED" of murder as you stated, but negotiated thru their attorneys to testify against the other marines and thru this process, IMMUNITY was granted. With IMMUNITY, the marines could no longer be CHARGED with murder.

This is not falsely accusing a marine. The IMMUNITY itself sez they are guilty, but the prosecutor knows the level of guilt is lesser than that of the squad leader who gave the orders.

The squad leaders murder charges have been reduced to MANSLAUGHTER.

Here is the definition of manslaughter:

Manslaughter is a legal term for the killing of a human in a manner considered by law as less culpable than murder.
The law generally differentiates between levels of criminal culpability based on the mens rea, or state of mind. This is particularly true within the law of homicide, where murder requires either the intent to kill, a state of mind called malice or malice aforethought, which may involve an unintentional killing but with a willful disregard for life.


This hardly "CLEARS" him of murder as you state. If anyone is a liar its yourself.

You are a splitter of hairs.

I have yet to hear you condemn any soldier or marine for crimes that have resulted in a conviction.

I have yet to hear you demonstrate one ounce of remorse for those innocent people killed in iraq by elements of our military who took those lives unlawfully.

I have yet to hear you say that you dont condone killing any person in iraq that is innocent and theoretically protected by our forces.

I have yet to hear you condemn any soldier or marine convicted for raping and/or killing any iraqi female we are suppose to protect.

Our military is not in a foriegn country to blur the lines of humanity. They are suppose to be mindful and respectful of the job they are there to do.

As I posted in another post, there were 69 cases of military personnel charged with murdering innocent Iraqis, and so far 31 convictions have been sustained.

i understand you will defend your comrades because that is the oath you took. But that only works in the military and not in civilian life.

You must learn to distinguish between right and wrong as a person (civilian) and not the robotic mindset the military would have you believe.

Crimes are crimes, there is no defense for it.

It is a shameful part of our occupation of Iraq that these cases exist. History will tell how large a part these crimes will play in the eventual outcome.

You are wrong when you responded that good people cant be made to do bad things, YES they can.

Its called life my friend. Life has its breaking points, and marines and soldiers are reaching theirs.

This is when good people do bad things.

Peace

 

[av8torntn]

Boot,

Ok, I get it, now your resorting to pure repetition to reinforce your claims that I am a liar.

You have been owned or Pzwnt.

Your claim that marines have been falsely charged is the lie.

Hey little girl

Glad your parents let you play on the computer again.

You posted this not once but twice.


"In fact, as case in point, just within the last couple of weeks, trials for a sniper team have concluded with convictions and sentencing of 10 years each for a multitude of charges stemming from the murders of innocent Iraqi citizens.

The sniper teams were "ordered" to lay down bomb making materials on roads while the snipers "sat in wait" and shot dead anyone picking up the materials. The dead persons were then photographed and then reported to the US military as "terrorists killed". In all cases, all killed persons were innocent civilians just at the wrong place at the wrong time."


You then posted this.

"I invest heavily in researching facts and data.

You ask, i will provide,"

Well now you want to run from this false accusation.
I posted plenty of articles showing you where these men were found not guilty of illegally baiting targets. You then posted the same articles and said even though they were found not guilty of murder they still committed murder. If you still lie and falsely accuse these men of murder I still ask you to provide your facts and data for the sixth time.

I see you are still standing by your Time magazine story. One one hand you post cases of Soldiers and Marines that have committed crimes and were found guilty in court. Although these cases are always unrelated to the men you falsely accused of crimes it still shows that people guilty are punished. You even post an article praising our justice system and saying how fair it is. Then you say even though these men were cleared, released from prison, they still must have went on a rampage and committed the worst war crime since Vietnam just because BS knows it is so. At this time as far as I know no one is charged with the murder of the women and children of Haditha as you falsely claim. I also find it odd that you defend Time on this story when their source was a know insurgent leader. They even had to lie and say he was a young journalism student for dramatic effect.


Still waiting for that proof that you claim you had of the Army snipers convicted of baiting targets and receiving ten year sentences for that. If you want to move on just offer up an apology to these men you have falsely accused of murder. We can then move to some of the other lies you have posted if you like.







Still waiting on those facts and data you have.


And waiting.

 

[BrownShark]

BOOT,

Here some backgoruind material for you.

Published on Sunday, November 11, 2007 by The Guardian/UK Murder Trial Sniper Says US Used ‘Bait’ For Suspect Iraqis

David Smith

A trial opening in Baghdad today will shed new light on a secret Pentagon programme in which US snipers allegedly planted fake weapons as ‘bait’ to lure their Iraqi enemies to their deaths.
Sergeant Evan Vela is accused of murdering an unarmed Iraqi man and an attempted cover-up. He has admitted that he fired two bullets at point-blank range into a detainee’s head but said he was following a direct order.
His court martial comes after those of two fellow snipers in an embarrassing saga which has blown the cover of an alleged classified ‘baiting’ programme in which snipers scatter ammunition, detonation cords or other items, then lie in wait to shoot insurgents who pick them up.
The tactic emerged earlier this year when Captain Matthew Didier, a platoon commander in an elite sniper unit known as the ‘Painted Demons’, told a military court: ‘Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy.
‘Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against US forces.’
Didier claimed that members of the US military’s Asymmetric Warfare Group visited his unit in January and later supplied ammunition boxes filled with ‘drop items’ to be deployed as bait. Soldiers told the Washington Post that about a dozen platoon members were aware of the programme, and that others knew about the ‘drop items’ but did not know their purpose. Vela, team leader Michael Hensley and Jorge Sandoval were members of the ‘Painted Demons’, which had a reputation for notching ‘kills’ at a high rate in the so-called ‘triangle of death’ south of Baghdad. They were CHARGED with the murders of three Iraqis during US operations in the spring.
Last week Hensley, an expert marksman from the 1st Battalion, 501st Airborne, was cleared of murder charges but reprimanded and demoted on lesser charges of planting an AK-47 rifle beside the body of a dead Iraqi and disrespecting an officer.
Last month Sandoval was found not guilty on two murder charges but was demoted from specialist to private and is serving a 44-day sentence for planting a detonation cord on the body of an Iraqi.
Vela is charged with premeditated murder, planting a weapon, making false statements and obstruction of justice. The first pre-trial hearing is today.

Lawyers for the snipers have argued that the baiting programme is relevant to their defence because it shows how officials backed unorthodox methods of killing not only insurgents but also unarmed men thought to be enemy combatants.

James Culp, Vela’s attorney, has said: ‘I don’t know how far up the chain this baiting programme goes right now. I know the government is trying to dummy this down to the lowest level possible.’

He added: ‘Our government is asking soldiers and Marines to make morally bruising decisions under the most horrific conditions imaginable. When the government doesn’t like the results, they isolate and vilify the soldier while hiding behind security clearances, classifications and unreasonable expectations.’

Vela’s father, Curtis Carnahan, told the Washington Post: ‘It’s an injustice … You can’t prosecute our soldiers for acts of war and threaten them with years of confinement when this programme, if it comes to the light of day, was clearly coming from higher levels. All those people who said “go use this stuff” just disappeared … ‘

US military officers in Baghdad deny the existence of a baiting programme. The court barred most classified material from Hensley’s court martial.
****

Boot,

still want to maintain there is no baiting programme??

Peace

 

[av8torntn]

Nice try liar. You have already tried that though. The judge in this case said that baiting was not relevant. He killed a detainee with a pistol. He was found guilty. Still waiting on your proof of these teams who were found guilty and all received ten year sentences for illegally baiting. Oh and for the record I do not think it is a crime to kill someone on the battlefield while carrying weapons to be used against coalition forces.


And still waiting.


Just think if you go ahead and post your facts and data you claim to have so readily available we can move on to any of your other lies. I will even let you choose the lie you wish to defend.


And still waiting.



Man I've waited so long I now have to go to work.