Religion

[newfie]

Oh goodness,

yep

 

[Timn17]

there is clearly much anguish within, hopefully you will listen to god and find your answer.

Yeah, that post, explaining how religion has provided a fertile ground for science to flourish, and discussing the importance of shared terminology, is a clear cry for help. You're a regular Freud.

Speaking of Freud - project much? When one constantly sees anguish and guilt in others, it's not unreasonable to suspect they may feel that way themselves.

 

[Timn17]

moot is the attempt to moot an answer

That word you keep using, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

I actually explained my point well before that word you latched onto for some reason. Really though - keep doing you; your posts are invaluable. Profound, even.

 

[newfie]

Yeah, that post, explaining how religion has provided a fertile ground for science to flourish, and discussing the importance of shared terminology, is a clear cry for help. You're a regular Freud.

Speaking of Freud - project much? When one constantly sees anguish and guilt in others, it's not unreasonable to suspect they may feel that way themselves.

Freund is not god. you need to listen to god speak to you to find your answers. God loves you and is willing to relieve you of your guilt.

 

[newfie]

That word you keep using, it doesn't mean what you think it means.

I actually explained my point well before that word you latched onto for some reason. Really though - keep doing you; your posts are invaluable. Profound, even.

thank you.

 

[Timn17]

Freund is not god. you need to listen to god speak to you to find your answers. God loves you and is willing to relieve you of your guilt.

I didn't say Freud was god. In my opinion, he was a crackpot with a few good insights - one of them being the concept of projection, which you are so kindly demonstrating for everyone. You constantly find guilt and anguish in the most innocuous posts, which suggests you yourself may be the one feeling guilty.

By the way, Freud whispers to you from beyond the grave and is willing to share a cigar with you and soothe your oedipus complex...

(I just wanted you to see how absurd you sound to an atheist. Your condescending appeals to your father surrogate are tired, absurd, and only slightly amusing.)

 

[Timn17]

thank you.

But... you... ahhhh nevermind. Sure, you're lovely.

 

[bbsam]

What in the world? What? Just what?

First off, no one says the world is 138-150 million years old. It's about 4.5 billion years old. And religion has nothing to do with it. The age of the earth is important to understanding geography, the climate, and evolution. Time scales in the billions sew incredibly hard to comprehend, but they're necesary to wrap your head around things like speciation and the formation of the continents. These things simply couldn't have happened in 150 mil years, let alone 10k.

Do you base your opinion on the age of the earth on whether or not you find its age useful to your religion? Again, here I was thinking your faith had at least partially spared your thinking mind. Sorry, I'm just astounded. Do you just pick a nice sounding number?

Ok. 4.5 billion. Good number. I see no reason to argue it. In fact it's the kind of science/religion debate that is useless that I've been talking about.

From a religion standpoint, why does it matter?

 

[bbsam]

No it wasn't. That's a myth. Do you honestly think they would do something likely to destroy the entire world just forkicks?

Yes

 

[Timn17]

Ok. 4.5 billion. Good number. I see no reason to argue it. In fact it's the kind of science/religion debate that is useless that I've been talking about.

From a religion standpoint, why does it matter?

as long as your comfortable tip toeing around all the ramifications an ancient earth along with everything we've learned about it geologically, geographically, and with regard to life, etc, then nothing.

 

[Timn17]

Yes

That's.... odd.

 

[bbsam]

as long as your comfortable tip toeing around all the ramifications an ancient earth along with everything we've learned about it geologically, geographically, and with regard to life, etc, then nothing.

Why would I tiptoe? Is a 4.5 billion year old earth supposed to shake one's faith?

 

[bbsam]

That's.... odd.

You have a lot of faith in humans. That's...odd.

 

[oldngray]

The Bible says nothing about the age of the earth. People who try to claim otherwise are attempting to make it say something it doesn't.

The age makes no difference anyway.

 

[moreluck]

The dinosaurs, the earth's age, space ships.....etc.....when you realize things are out of your hands (control)...then is the time you will know there's a God for you.......or not!

 

[newfie]

. You constantly find guilt and anguish in the most innocuous posts, which suggests you yourself may be the one feeling guilty.

you're up to what about 50 posts on this topic? Arguing that you have no ax to grind?

 

[wkmac]

I agree that the whole flat earth thing is overblown, as most educated people have known about its spherical nature since at least the time of Aristotle. However, there are some passages in the bible which suggest the authors believed in a flat earth.

I mention this because it's always interesting to see which issues religious people defer to science on and which they refuse to budge on. It clues you in to their most fundamental beliefs, and it charts the steady progress of science over time. The list of things considered unknowable by science and thus the sole province of religion has steadily grown smaller and smaller.

True. The spherical firmament world of creation would be a good example of that. Professor Christine Hayes at Yale University in her lectures on Old Testament does a good job of covering that concept and then connecting it to the Enuma Elish creation myth. In this myth, Marduk slew Tiamat and then slicing Tiamat in half, unfolding her and thus creating the world from Tiamat. Half of Tiamat was the flat earth and its waters beneath if you will and the other half was elevated and bowed to become the firmament to holding back the waters that existed beyond in the heavenly realm.

Quoting Stephanie Dalley from her 1991' "Myths of Mesopotamia" and translating from the Enuma Elish:

"He sliced her in half like a fish for drying:
Half of her he put up to roof the sky,
Drew a bolt across and made a guard to hold it.
Her waters he arranged so they could not escape."

He being Marduk and her being Tiamat.

Our World in the Babylonian Enuma Elish concept.

The Hebrew Concept

The concept of the World Tree, popular among the ancient Celts and Norse in the form of the Yggdrasil Tree follows this flat earth concept to some extent.

So in one sense you are correct that at some point the idea of flat earth was popular but as you and I seem to agree, this once common concept believed was no longer the case at some point. The greeks would be a good start but I also think the Egyptians before them may also have had some form of idea of a round earth as opposed to a flat one. At least my thinking is open to that idea.

Good stuff and enjoying your input into this subject. Welcome to the fun!

 

[newfie]

I agree that the whole flat earth thing is overblown, as most educated people have known about its spherical nature since at least the time of Aristotle. However, there are some passages in the bible which suggest the authors believed in a flat earth.

I mention this because it's always interesting to see which issues religious people defer to science on and which they refuse to budge on. It clues you in to their most fundamental beliefs, and it charts the steady progress of science over time. The list of things considered unknowable by science and thus the sole province of religion has steadily grown smaller and smaller.

the bible has not gotten any smaller.

 

[MrFedEx]

I think you're overestimating the intelligence of the general population.

I agree. Plenty have blind faith, because there is zero evidence. That said, I have no problem with people believing whatever they want to. However, it is a problem when these same folks insist that religion be a part of our political process, foreign policy, and/or education etc. If they want to live a fairy tale, that's fine, but don't try and suck the rest of us in with you.

I've listened patiently to friends showing me the "evidence", which is invariably cherry-picked and ignores both the contradictions in the Bible itself and scientific reality. The End of Times and Israel etc. are parroted constantly, as well as the "facts" which support creationism and the Young Earth line.

Look at the responses from the usual suspects here, some of whom I no longer even respond to because it's obvious reason and facts have no place in their existence.

Politicians like Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee feed off this ignorance and target their message to attract evangelicals and regular believers alike. Again, I'm happy Ted Cruz is a believer if that works for him, but I don't want a reactionary who governs Biblically being our world leader.

Also, religion is big business. Look at the mega-churches, authors, and healers who fleece the faithful for billions every year. 2 weeks ago, Kenneth Copeland and another televangelist were pleading for their own private jets (ala Creflo Dollar) so they could spread the word more quickly. Copeland called commercial jets " tubes filled with demons". BTW, Creflo has been spreading Jesus through family vacations all over the globe in his new Gulfstream and Kenneth Copeland just bought a $10.4 M mansion.

How many starving children could $10.4 M or the value of a new private jet feed?

Isn't that what Jesus would do?

 

[wkmac]

Ok. 4.5 billion. Good number. I see no reason to argue it. In fact it's the kind of science/religion debate that is useless that I've been talking about.

From a religion standpoint, why does it matter?

I agree, in the bigger picture, it may very well not matter at all. If we conclude that, the conversation moves way forward IMO in a positive way at the least towards a healthy respect of what still might be differing opinions.

However, it may not be that easy, especially if one takes a literalist view of the Bible itself. But I'll save that for later when I decide to take the time to tackle the issue of 2 creations in the bible. And as I said, if you read Genesis Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 closely and make note of the creation order, you'll see the 2 creations as well. But the contradiction may trouble you but don't let it because there is an explanation why that is and is quite fascinating too IMO.