Sarah Palin Says Independence Day Is For Remembering When Jesus Led The Revolution

[cachsux]

They don't worry about planned parenthood when a woman is found pregnant from promiscuity.
They die of lead poisoning or with a new haircut.

You forgot stoning.

Doing it in some backwards ass country is one thing. Doing so in one where it's legal for a woman to make a choice simply because it's different than one's own choice is another.

 

[728ups]

Maybe the run-of-the-mill Muslims but not the radical Muslims.

we have quite the muslim population in my county. All are very nice and polite and I rather doubt they go to the Mosque and condemn Christians. The sign on the First Baptist Church in my town said this weeks sermon will be about the dangers of False Religions and the teachings of Islam

 

[DriveInDriveOut]

It was rewritten with his permission. You are dissecting quotations to try to negate overwhelming evidence.

Read his own handwriting to Thomson as I said before.

It's on file at the Smithsonian with many of his writings.

I read it the first time you mentioned it, and it seems to me he was very critical of the Christian religion. I see the letter as explaining himself as a follower of the teachings of Jesus, not a follower of a dogmatic Christian religion:

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw."

Most people will agree a Christian is someone who believes Jesus was the literal son of god by virgin birth. Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, or the trinity, or miracles.

He was a great thinker, not a blind believer. I honestly wonder what his view of the Christian religion would have been if he had lived in a post Darwin world.

“Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear” Thomas Jefferson

 

[10 point]

I read it the first time you mentioned it, and it seems to me he was very critical of the Christian religion. I see the letter as explaining himself as a follower of the teachings of Jesus, not a follower of a dogmatic Christian religion:

"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw."

Most people will agree a Christian is someone who believes Jesus was the literal son of god by virgin birth. Jefferson did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, or the trinity, or miracles.

He was a great thinker, not a blind believer. I honestly wonder what his view of the Christian religion would have been if he had lived in a post Darwin world.

“Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear” Thomas Jefferson

ALL of those quotes were in response to clergy and priests (plus other "church" leaders) rendition of how to keep the sheep in their pen...not a reference to Jesus, His life, teachings and death.

You've evidently not read the other quotes available that back up what I said or aren't responding to them here.
Thomas Jefferson was all about freedom of religion. He was not about bowing to men in the clergy who demanded respect. Free will. We all have it no matter what is going on around us.

Stoning. Sorry cach, I did forget that one.

How many Christians are bombing abortion clinics and shooting their doctors out of the millions that live in the US?

You can't use that lopsided comparison and make points with me.

And there are two bodies involved in an abortion. One lives and one dies. By choice.

 

[DriveInDriveOut]

ALL of those quotes were in response to clergy and priests (plus other "church" leaders) rendition of how to keep the sheep in their pen...not a reference to Jesus, His life, teachings and death.

You've evidently not read the other quotes available that back up what I said or aren't responding to them here.
Thomas Jefferson was all about freedom of religion. He was not about bowing to men in the clergy who demanded respect. Free will. We all have it no matter what is going on around us.

Stoning. Sorry cach, I did forget that one.

How many Christians are bombing abortion clinics and shooting their doctors out of the millions that live in the US?

You can't use that lopsided comparison and make points with me.

And there are two bodies involved in an abortion. One lives and one dies. By choice.

I was quoting Jefferson, a quote that you suggested I read. Jefferson openly said a good portion of the bible is completely made up, man made rubbish. Jefferson did not believe Jesus was the literal son of god, therefore I do not consider him a member of the Christian religion.

If you want to say most of the founding fathers were Christians I would agree. However, Jefferson is probably the worst one of them you could have chosen to make your point, Adams would be a close second imo.

 

[oldngray]

I was quoting Jefferson, a quote that you suggested I read. Jefferson openly said a good portion of the bible is completely made up, man made rubbish. Jefferson did not believe Jesus was the literal son of god, therefore I do not consider him a member of the Christian religion.

If you want to say most of the founding fathers were Christians I would agree. However, Jefferson is probably the worst one of them you could have chosen to make your point, Adams would be a close second imo.

Jefferson openly said a good portion of the bible is completely made up, man made rubbish.
Can you site a source to support that quote?

 

[DriveInDriveOut]

Jefferson openly said a good portion of the bible is completely made up, man made rubbish.
Can you site a source to support that quote?

I already did.

" Among the sayings and discourses imputed to Him by His biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same Being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore to Him the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, and roguery of others of His disciples." -- Thomas Jefferson: letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

 

[10 point]

I was quoting Jefferson, a quote that you suggested I read. Jefferson openly said a good portion of the bible is completely made up, man made rubbish. Jefferson did not believe Jesus was the literal son of god, therefore I do not consider him a member of the Christian religion.

If you want to say most of the founding fathers were Christians I would agree. However, Jefferson is probably the worst one of them you could have chosen to make your point, Adams would be a close second imo.

I somewhat agree about Adams from what I have read so far but Jefferson, in his latter years supported the Bible and to prove that he cut out portions of it to reflect on. Not that he didn't believe all of it (it is all tied together from the prophets to Jesus's life supported by the prophetic writings about Him) but to deal with the same oppressive clergy they left in England here was an exasperation at best.

This, our country, is not a totalitarian society of Christians and never will be but this thing I know: the truth will prevail.

It may take a while but it always materializes in cause and effect.
That, seeing the lukewarmness of today's "Christians", is a fearful thing.

 

[The Other Side]

Do you own research instead of being a parrot.

The Christian right has always taken Jeffersons writings out of context to fit a narrative that suits their beliefs.

If Jefferson was such a good Christian, why is the word GOD not in any of the founding documents?

TOS.

 

[realbrown1]

Maybe the run-of-the-mill Muslims but not the radical Muslims.

Run-of-the-mill muslims. That even made me laugh.

 

[BrownArmy]

"The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was a book constructed by Thomas Jefferson in the latter years of his life by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson's condensed composition is especially notable for its exclusion of all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels which contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages indicating Jesus was divine."

LINK

 

[10 point]

I already did.

If you truly understand that he was responding to (again) the false teachings of the clergy of his time (not all of them tho) and he was actually defending the God he worshiped and the true doctrine written in the Bible.

You have to understand why he wrote that and the context that it was written.

He was sick of men twisting the scriptures for their base gain.

 

[DriveInDriveOut]

If you truly understand that he was responding to (again) the false teachings of the clergy of his time (not all of them tho) and he was actually defending the God he worshiped and the true doctrine written in the Bible.

You have to understand why he wrote that and the context that it was written.

He was sick of men twisting the scriptures for their base gain.

If by "true doctrine" you mean that Jesus was not the son of god, did not perform miracles, and did not resurrect from the dead, then we are in agreement. While I agree that Jefferson was highly critical of the clergy of his time, he was directly speaking about the bible in that letter.

The letter I was quoting Jefferson from goes on to say:
"Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and firm corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. These palpable interpolations and falsifications of his doctrines led me to try to sift them apart."

You realize Paul is attributed to 14 of the 27 books of the New Testament right? Jefferson was not simply choosing passages he liked when he put together his bible, he was trying to filter out all the BS.

 

[10 point]

Do you own research instead of being a parrot.

The Christian right has always taken Jeffersons writings out of context to fit a narrative that suits their beliefs.

If Jefferson was such a good Christian, why is the word GOD not in any of the founding documents?

TOS.

Have you read the Declaration of Independence lately?

There's at least four references to Him in that document alone.
Twice in the first two paragraphs, once in the middle and at least He was called the Supreme Judge toward the end.

Calling me a parrot gives me a fowl attitude TOS

 

[10 point]

If by "true doctrine" you mean that Jesus was not the son of god, did not perform miracles, and did not resurrect from the dead, then we are in agreement. While I agree that Jefferson was highly critical of the clergy of his time, he was directly speaking about the bible in that letter.

The letter I was quoting Jefferson from goes on to say:
"Of this band of dupes and impostors, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and firm corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus. These palpable interpolations and falsifications of his doctrines led me to try to sift them apart."

You realize Paul is attributed to 14 of the 27 books of the New Testament right? Jefferson was not simply choosing passages he liked when he put together his bible, he was trying to filter out all the BS.

Says you with unproven "documentation".

 

[DriveInDriveOut]

Says you with unproven "documentation".

The source is the manuscript division of the Library of Congress.
Here's a the letter man read it for yourself.
http://www.miguelservet.org/popups/jefferson1.htm

 

[10 point]

I realize I'm wasting my time with TOS because blatant half truths are unreconcilable.

"Drive in" tho at odds with the Bible (correct me if I am wrong) has been respectful in posting the portion he/she discerns as truthful.

Thanks for agreeing to disagree respectfully. Have a good night.

 

[10 point]

The source is the manuscript division of the Library of Congress.
Here's a the letter man read it for yourself.
http://www.miguelservet.org/popups/jefferson1.htm

I'll check it out. Thanks for the link.

 

[BrownArmy]

Says you with unproven "documentation".

I'm pretty sure his 'documentation' are quotes from Jefferson himself.

Jefferson's personal beliefs changed and were distilled throughout his life, so there is a bit of conflicting information out there, plus he was a politician so some of his quotes were in that context (i.e. saying what he needed to say, to whom, at a specific time, in order to achieve his aim).

It's simplistic to call Jefferson a Deist, but for shorthand, that's pretty close.

Look, we can argue Jefferson for months, but for me the important point isn't whether Jefferson believed in God (he did), or whether he believed in the Bible's version of Jesus (he didn't), or whether he thought the baseline message of Jesus' teachings, aside from the miracles, was the proper moral code on which we should dedicate our lives (he did).

The point, for me, is that Jefferson was highly suspicious of the intersection between Church and State.

Jefferson coined the phrase, "a wall of separation between Church and State".

Believe whatever you want to believe in terms of religion, but separate that from our civic government, and we will all prosper.

Once government starts getting into questions regarding religion, that's when the clusterpuck starts.

Freedom of religion, freedom from religion, etc.

 

[10 point]

I'm pretty sure his 'documentation' are quotes from Jefferson himself.

Jefferson's personal beliefs changed and were distilled throughout his life, so there is a bit of conflicting information out there, plus he was a politician so some of his quotes were in that context (i.e. saying what he needed to say, to whom, at a specific time, in order to achieve his aim).

It's simplistic to call Jefferson a Deist, but for shorthand, that's pretty close.

Look, we can argue Jefferson for months, but for me the important point isn't whether Jefferson believed in God (he did), or whether he believed in the Bible's version of Jesus (he didn't), or whether he thought the baseline message of Jesus' teachings, aside from the miracles, was the proper moral code on which we should dedicate our lives (he did).

The point, for me, is that Jefferson was highly suspicious of the intersection between Church and State.

Jefferson coined the phrase, "a wall of separation between Church and State".

Believe whatever you want to believe in terms of religion, but separate that from our civic government, and we will all prosper.

Once government starts getting into questions regarding religion, that's when the clusterpuck starts.

Freedom of religion, freedom from religion, etc.

Freedom doesn't come from the federal government or your state government. (Our state motto says "With God all things are possible.)

Freedom is formed within a persons soul and actions or lack thereof precipitate from there.
That's why Christians in communist Romania could sing after horrific beatings and torture by their guards.

They were in chains but in the big picture they were more free than their guards.

It's all temporary.