Tucson Shooting !

[klein]

Wihout medical insurance, it still remains pretty hard to get diagnosed.

Otherwise, any school, employer, family member, or an ex spouse, etc, could take your gun-rights away, by simply filing a complaint.

 

[Jones]

To clarify; once this guy made his decision, the outcome would not have been affected by a ban on the sale of high capacity magazines. It would not have been affected by a 7-day waiting period. It would not have been affected by background checks, or by creating a "gun free zone" where the murders occured, or by banning open carry, or by requiring guns to be registered, or any of the other multitude of useless"feel good" laws that the anti-gun crowd clamors for every time a murder with a gun takes place.

You know what might have stopped this from happening? Imagine if he had showed up at that rally and found himself surrounded by law-abiding citizens who were all openly carrying. Unless he was truly suicidal, he may very well have had second thoughts about opening fire if he knew that it would probably cost him his life. And if he was truly suicidal, and truly motivated to kill, then he could have just as easily gotten on the Internet and learned how to make a backpack bomb using materials readily available at any hardware store. He would not have needed access to a gun to do what he did.

If there is a failure here, it is a failure in the manner in which our society monitors, diagnoses, and treats the mentally ill.

I can certainly agree with that.

 

[trplnkl]

I think at the very least when someone has been kicked out of college because he has been deemed mentally ill to to the point that he is a danger to others, that same person should not be able to just walk into a gun store and buy a Glock. Cross checking data bases to make this information available at the POS is not in any way an impossible task. I'm an advocate of private gun ownership, but there really should be mechanisms in place to keep guns out of the hands of people who are clearly crazy and many of them are just common sense.

Can't disagree with that, however the school that he was kicked out of never reported it to anyone else. (at least from what I have heard on the news) So his name would not have appeared on the shared list. The big issue is the maintaining of a reliable data list that can be accessed.

 

[trplnkl]

Wihout medical insurance, it still remains pretty hard to get diagnosed.

Otherwise, any school, employer, family member, or an ex spouse, etc, could take your gun-rights away, by simply filing a complaint.

insurance doesn't necessarily have anything to do with it, in most cases of people being IDed as mentally ill it is the state that pays for court ordered evaluations. Most mentally ill people don't voluntarily submit themselves for evaluation because the believe they are OK, it's everyone else that is insane. So stop making stuff up/.

 

[soberups]

I think at the very least when someone has been kicked out of college because he has been deemed mentally ill to to the point that he is a danger to others, that same person should not be able to just walk into a gun store and buy a Glock. Cross checking data bases to make this information available at the POS is not in any way an impossible task. I'm an advocate of private gun ownership, but there really should be mechanisms in place to keep guns out of the hands of people who are clearly crazy and many of them are just common sense.

My understanding is that the alleged shooter's behavior prior to the murders never crossed the legal threshold of being clinically diagnosed with a mental illness. He had not been civilly committed, he did not have a restraining order out against him, and he had never been convicted of any crime.

Under Federal law, any person anywhere in the US who buys a gun from a licensed dealer (such as the Sportsmans Warehouse where the alleged shooter bought his Glock) is required to submit to a background check and be fingerprinted. Some states do not have the ability to do an "instant check" and require the purchaser to wait for up to 7 days before taking posession of the gun. Other states...such as mine (Oregon) or Arizona, are able to do the check instantly and if the purchaser does not show up in the database as having a criminal record, an active restraining order, or a verifiable history of medically diagnosed mental illness, they can take posession of the gun immediately.

Its important to remember a few facts here. First of all, the alleged shooter bought the gun on November 30th, almost a month and a half prior to the murders. Second of all, the alleged shooter had no criminal record and had never been medically diagnosed with a mental defect or subjected to any sort of civil commitment that would show up on a background check. And thirdly, if the alleged shooter had been flagged and denied on his background check he could have simply gone to the online classified ads and purchased a gun from a private party. Remember that we are talking about a guy who allegedly stalked Rep Giffords for years and had all the time in the world to plan out his premeditated crime...so even if he had walked out of that Sportmans Warehouse empty-handed back on November 30th he still would have had over a month to obtain a gun by other means.

I dont necesarily object to the idea of background checks....I submitted to a very thorough one myself when I got my concealed handgun permit....but in a situation such as the tragedy that just occured it is not realistic to think that a background check would have affected the outcome at all.

 

[klein]

So, in this case, you need more "states-people" visting residential homes.
To evaulate their citizens on a regular basis. (cause not everyone is a criminal, and hasn't had run in with the law) - just like this guy.

He didn't go to school anymore, or to work.
I'm sure there are plenty of people that do the same, homeless people, too.

They all need a visit from the state !

Is that your solution trp ?

Or is it up to the public to report these people ?
If so, have you done your job doing so ?
I'm sure you came across some mentally challenged people in your life, be it UPS customers, or at a department/grocery store, or social events.
Do you question them if they have regular, ongoing, medical care, take their medication as ordered, and if not, do you report them ?
Furthermore, do you question if they own a gun ? Or if they still have the right to purchase one ?

Yes, I'm not sure if the USA is really that way as you described. (the state orders it).
Here, and in Germany, over 99% of all mentally ill people are first diagnosed by a physcian. Some as young as newborns, some in older years.

Every country is different, I opoligize by "making things up, that are not the facts in America" .

 

[soberups]

Wihout medical insurance, it still remains pretty hard to get diagnosed.

Otherwise, any school, employer, family member, or an ex spouse, etc, could take your gun-rights away, by simply filing a complaint.

That is already the case.

In my state at least, if you are subject to any sort of restraining order you are prohibited from buying or posessing a firearm and you must immediately turn in any guns that you own. You then have the right to appeal the order in court and have it overturned, but until that takes place your rights are in fact taken away and the burden is on you to get them back.

 

[Lue C Fur]

So, in this case, you need more "states-people" visting residential homes.
To evaulate their citizens on a regular basis. (cause not everyone is a criminal, and hasn't had run in with the law) - just like this guy.
When was the last time you were evaulated?
He didn't go to school anymore, or to work.
Bingo!!!! Thats fits you perfect!!!!
I'm sure there are plenty of people that do the same, homeless people, too.
You mean that they dont work and drink all day and are wards of the state?
They all need a visit from the state !
I heard someone from AA will vist if you ask for help...

 

[over9five]

9 Year Old Shooting Victim's Organs Save Life in Boston

 

[moreluck]

"...They all need a visit from the state !".....



I don't know how you do it in "Mountie County", but here, we don't get state visits, unless you subject yourself to them.....like child protection svcs, adoption services, etc.
Shoot, I wasn't even going to let a census taker on my property......turns out none came here.

 

[Babagounj]

anyone know where klein will be staying in FL. ?
I think we could arrange for some nice people in white jackets to visit him and have him checked in.

 

[moreluck]

The Safeway where the shooting took place is back open today.....life goes on...altered forever for some. The work of the gov't needs to start again also. One week off is respectful time enough.

 

[dilligaf]

The Safeway where the shooting took place is back open today.....life goes on...altered forever for some. The work of the gov't needs to start again also. One week off is respectful time enough.

Truthfully, I'm surprised that Safeway stayed closed for this long.

 

[cachsux]

I'm sure you came across some mentally challenged people in your life, be it UPS customers, or at a department/grocery store, or social events.
Or on internet forums.

Do you question them if they have regular, ongoing, medical care, take their medication as ordered, and if not, do you report them ?

I try.
Here, and in Germany, over 99% of all mentally ill people are first diagnosed by a physcian. Some as young as newborns, some in older years.
About 49 or so?

 

[trplnkl]

So, in this case, you need more "states-people" visting residential homes.
To evaulate their citizens on a regular basis. (cause not everyone is a criminal, and hasn't had run in with the law) - just like this guy.

He didn't go to school anymore, or to work.
I'm sure there are plenty of people that do the same, homeless people, too.

They all need a visit from the state !

Is that your solution trp ?

Or is it up to the public to report these people ?
If so, have you done your job doing so ?
I'm sure you came across some mentally challenged people in your life, be it UPS customers, or at a department/grocery store, or social events.
Do you question them if they have regular, ongoing, medical care, take their medication as ordered, and if not, do you report them ?
Furthermore, do you question if they own a gun ? Or if they still have the right to purchase one ?

Yes, I'm not sure if the USA is really that way as you described. (the state orders it).
Here, and in Germany, over 99% of all mentally ill people are first diagnosed by a physcian. Some as young as newborns, some in older years.

Every country is different, I opoligize by "making things up, that are not the facts in America" .

No idea where you got the idea I was presenting a solution of any kind. The school Loudner attended kicked him out of school because he demonstrated erratic and scary tendencies. Since they determined he was too potentially dangerous to attend the school, maybe they should have reported him to MHMR or some other state agency that monitors that. IDK what the answer to this kind of problem ism but I do not feel there is any way to keep everyone safe all their natural lives.

 

[Babagounj]

saw this local headline and thought it was about what had been discussed here................
http://boston.cbslocal.com/2011/01/15/president-obama-to-honor-texas-tower-victims/
President Obama To Honor Texas Tower Victims


{ but it's something totally different }


U.S. Sen. John Kerry’s office said the White House told them Friday that Obama would give Kerry a letter recognizing the sacrifice of the victims to deliver to their surviving relatives.

“Texas Tower No. 4″ was built 85 miles offshore to give early warning of a Soviet air attack. Its Jan. 15, 1961, collapse killed 28 men repairing the hurricane-weakened tower.

In 2000, a former tower worker contacted Kerry after reading a history that described it as “abandoned” before collapse.

 

[klein]

Safeway is very community orientaded. They give back a lot.

Probably 1 of the reasons Gifford pick that place.

I pay maybe somewhat more to do all my grocery shopping there, but nowhere else do I get better service, plus I get free airmiles there, too.
Just 2 days ago, bought a 10lb box of Californian Naval Oranges there. $4.99 for the box. Maybe cheaper then buying it in Cali ?
$2.99 lb for Sirlion roast (my Sunday dinner tomorrow).

Thinking of that, the Safeway in Tucson, must have had their fresh produce, meats, milk products, bakery goods, all pick-uped and re-distributed.

 

[moreluck]

OT, but you can buy bags of oranges, avacados, etc. right off the road from vendors.....Rt. 76 on the way to Fallbrook.....very cheap!!

 

[Jones]

Can't disagree with that, however the school that he was kicked out of never reported it to anyone else. (at least from what I have heard on the news) So his name would not have appeared on the shared list. The big issue is the maintaining of a reliable data list that can be accessed.

That's what I'm getting at. If a public university goes so far as to actually ban someone from campus for being mentally unstable and a possible danger to others, shouldn't they at the very least let local law enforcement know? Common sense says that should be a requirement, and the fact that's it's not is a problem.

 

[UpstateNYUPSer(Ret)]

That's what I'm getting at. If a public university goes so far as to actually ban someone from campus for being mentally unstable and a possible danger to others, shouldn't they at the very least let local law enforcement know? Common sense says that should be a requirement, and the fact that's it's not is a problem.

It is here. The university and local police have a very good working relationship; in fact, the authority of the university police extends off-campus.