UPS Bargaining Suspended

[Bill]

July 13, 2007

The following is an update on the UPS national negotiations from General President Jim Hoffa, Chairman of the Teamsters UPS National Negotiating Committee and hall, Co-Chairman of the Negotiating Committee.

We write to inform you that the Teamsters National UPS Negotiating Committee suspended talks with UPS on July 11, 2007. As you know, we entered into early negotiations in order to address our members’ concerns that their pension and health and welfare benefit funds were in jeopardy. Unfortunately, the Company has been unable to present a comprehensive response to the Union’s economic demands because of differences between the Company and several benefit funds over the amount of new Company money that is necessary to maintain and improve existing benefits.

These disputes cannot be resolved by the Union Negotiating Committee. And until they are resolved between the Company and those funds, the Union cannot proceed with bargaining over the outstanding economic and language proposals that are on the table. The Union is prepared to resume negotiations as soon as the Company is ready to put forth an economic proposal that addresses the issue that brought us to the table to begin with: improving the stability of the benefit funds upon which our members rely for health care coverage and retirement protection.

While negotiations at the National Agreement level have been suspended, both the Union and Company Supplemental Negotiating Committees have been instructed to continue to bargain over the working conditions covered in the Supplements. As always, we will provide you with information as soon as there are further developments.

If the Teamsters union is waiting for UPS to improve the stability of the pension and health and welfare funds in CS, then it is going to be a long wait. As long as we are associated with CS, any money that UPS contributes goes towards UPS employees and employees of other companies. I believe that UPS would be more willing to stabilize the funds, if the money they contributed went to UPS people only, as they would not be paying in as much as they do now. Each year for the last 5 years under the "best contract ever", UPS has been contributing huge amounts of money. Every year UPS puts additional money in, but its employees receive less. Any company in business today would view this as pointless, and stop this trend of pouring money down the drain. It is time to change course, but the Teamsters will not abandon CS even though it continues to sink. The big question is WHY? Food for thought: Is it possible that some of the huge administration fees ($61 million from the health and welfare fund, and another $120 million from the pension fund) finds its way back into the Teamsters tresury?

 

[raceanoncr]

If the Teamsters union is waiting for UPS to improve the stability of the pension and health and welfare funds in CS, then it is going to be a long wait. As long as we are associated with CS, any money that UPS contributes goes towards UPS employees and employees of other companies. I believe that UPS would be more willing to stabilize the funds, if the money they contributed went to UPS people only, as they would not be paying in as much as they do now. Each year for the last 5 years under the "best contract ever", UPS has been contributing huge amounts of money. Every year UPS puts additional money in, but its employees receive less. Any company in business today would view this as pointless, and stop this trend of pouring money down the drain. It is time to change course, but the Teamsters will not abandon CS even though it continues to sink. The big question is WHY? Food for thought: Is it possible that some of the huge administration fees ($61 million from the health and welfare fund, and another $120 million from the pension fund) finds its way back into the Teamsters tresury?

YAWNNNNN.........zzzzzzz......

 

[wkmac]

NEW YORK, July 16 (Reuters) - United Parcel Service Inc. said on Monday contract talks with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters are temporarily recessed while the company awaits information from pension funds that cover its workers.
"The main negotiating committees from the two sides are not meeting right now solely because we are waiting for some additional information," UPS spokesman Norman Black said. "Until we get this additional information we'll stay in recess."
The national committees met last week. Talks on local issues and contract riders are continuing, Black said, adding he does not know when UPS will get the pension fund information.
Last week, the Teamsters said contract negotiations with UPS were "temporarily suspended" because the company was unable to respond to the union's demands. The union said it is willing to resume negotiations with UPS as soon as the package carrier makes a proposal on health care coverage and retirement benefits.
"The talks are not suspended at all. They haven't broken off, or broken down, or anything like that," UPS's Black said.

I've read several news pieces on this and they are about all the same. But what really bothered me after the fact was wondering either just who was lying or were they each letting the other posture to those they were preaching too.

Here's what I was left thinking. The union needs to look strong in the face of it's union members and the company needs to look like it's making real headway to Wall Street and the customers. Neither side that I could see anywhere suggested what the otherside was saying was false or a lie and let what they had said stand but only made a point of their position.

Personally, here's what I came away with and for now until facts show otherwise will believe. As the article said, the talks are only suspended. There is a wide amount being discussed of just what is the exact amount of the withdrawal fee from CS. The gap is from $4bil to $12bil and from what I understand CS has not been the most cooperative in giving hard exact figures. Now that part is rumor from a source and that's all I'll say about it. (And it's not Jon Frum)

Now my opinion, while they try and work out the exact amount and not blow the cover that the idea of withdrawing from CS is in fact in real discussions, a cover story like we are seeing is in play that still grant plausible deniability in the future if need be.

Sorry folks, but that's how I see it. And one other thing if we do manage to withdraw from CS, 2 opposing sides will be potentially harmed and could even find themselves with some common ground. Those 2 parties are the hardline Teamsters and the upstart APWAer's because the biggest control mechanism for the hardline Teamsters and keeping the rest of us in line are the health and welfare benefits. Remove that and the IBT becomes just another dime store union that we can vote in and vote out at will. A major monetary issue is just beyond their control so to speak. For the APWAer's, CS is the key issue for these guys and is about all they may have going for them. If the pension crisis is resolved, what's the likelyhood that a broad base of Teamsters will revolt to a new union? Slim and none. Ironic that for both side the status quo must be maintained. Hoffa and the IBT are in the hotseat because of APWA and IMO it's the reason that the whole idea of a different pension plan is even in play to begin with. Funny how the landscape has changed so much since 1997' and I have to wonder where we'd be now had we changed pensions in 97'?

Hoffa and company are fighting for their lives IMO. CS is in trouble when you have the 08' pension laws coming into play and if he stays the course with CS, he has to have guarantees from the CS folks that the plan will remain viable with these laws in play. Also UPS, in it's own hotseat knows that if this doesn't happen, they could face a huge chunk coming out of their wallet anyway to bring the plan up to where it needs to be. The withdrawal fee amount could be a drop in the bucket comapred to the real cost if CS isn't fixed and this scares UPS. Scares me too because this may mean less money for raises and other benefits not to mention an economic burden on the company itself! Who will bare the working brunt of making up this economic shortfall should it come into play? UPS position will be "if we gotta pay it, you gotta earn it back!"

If Hoffa stays with CS and the plan comes under gov't edict where beenies are further cut, the political ramifications especially in the south where the union is weak anyway among the members may be fatal and could effect other areas of the country as well. However, if Hoffa accepts a UPS/IBT plan to the liking of the members covered, IMO APWA is DOA and has no future.

You know, this might make for a good movie of the week or something if my retirement life wasn't hanging in the balance in the middle of all this. Pretty sad when you just don't and in some respect can't trust either side anymore!

 

[Cole]

Good post mac!

 

[brownblood]

Very insightful comments by ‘Mac’. I guess UPS may have known the possible perils of the pension fund for some of the union carriers back in ‘97.

But how does UPS integrate the problem among other union/regional carriers who are fully funded in their pension plan?? The possible answers to the problem are not quick fixes and will probably bare long term consequences.

Its hard to stay positive…

 

[satellitedriver]

I've read several news pieces on this and they are about all the same. But what really bothered me after the fact was wondering either just who was lying or were they each letting the other posture to those they were preaching too.

Here's what I was left thinking. The union needs to look strong in the face of it's union members and the company needs to look like it's making real headway to Wall Street and the customers. Neither side that I could see anywhere suggested what the otherside was saying was false or a lie and let what they had said stand but only made a point of their position.

Personally, here's what I came away with and for now until facts show otherwise will believe. As the article said, the talks are only suspended. There is a wide amount being discussed of just what is the exact amount of the withdrawal fee from CS. The gap is from $4bil to $12bil and from what I understand CS has not been the most cooperative in giving hard exact figures. Now that part is rumor from a source and that's all I'll say about it. (And it's not Jon Frum)

Now my opinion, while they try and work out the exact amount and not blow the cover that the idea of withdrawing from CS is in fact in real discussions, a cover story like we are seeing is in play that still grant plausible deniability in the future if need be.

Sorry folks, but that's how I see it. And one other thing if we do manage to withdraw from CS, 2 opposing sides will be potentially harmed and could even find themselves with some common ground. Those 2 parties are the hardline Teamsters and the upstart APWAer's because the biggest control mechanism for the hardline Teamsters and keeping the rest of us in line are the health and welfare benefits. Remove that and the IBT becomes just another dime store union that we can vote in and vote out at will. A major monetary issue is just beyond their control so to speak. For the APWAer's, CS is the key issue for these guys and is about all they may have going for them. If the pension crisis is resolved, what's the likelyhood that a broad base of Teamsters will revolt to a new union? Slim and none. Ironic that for both side the status quo must be maintained. Hoffa and the IBT are in the hotseat because of APWA and IMO it's the reason that the whole idea of a different pension plan is even in play to begin with. Funny how the landscape has changed so much since 1997' and I have to wonder where we'd be now had we changed pensions in 97'?

Hoffa and company are fighting for their lives IMO. CS is in trouble when you have the 08' pension laws coming into play and if he stays the course with CS, he has to have guarantees from the CS folks that the plan will remain viable with these laws in play. Also UPS, in it's own hotseat knows that if this doesn't happen, they could face a huge chunk coming out of their wallet anyway to bring the plan up to where it needs to be. The withdrawal fee amount could be a drop in the bucket comapred to the real cost if CS isn't fixed and this scares UPS. Scares me too because this may mean less money for raises and other benefits not to mention an economic burden on the company itself! Who will bare the working brunt of making up this economic shortfall should it come into play? UPS position will be "if we gotta pay it, you gotta earn it back!"

If Hoffa stays with CS and the plan comes under gov't edict where beenies are further cut, the political ramifications especially in the south where the union is weak anyway among the members may be fatal and could effect other areas of the country as well. However, if Hoffa accepts a UPS/IBT plan to the liking of the members covered, IMO APWA is DOA and has no future.

You know, this might make for a good movie of the week or something if my retirement life wasn't hanging in the balance in the middle of all this. Pretty sad when you just don't and in some respect can't trust either side anymore!

So the dice are rolling, and we are not the one that threw them.
What numbers will come up?
Only the god's that cast the dice know.

 

[tieguy]

So the dice are rolling, and we are not the one that threw them.
What numbers will come up?
Only the god's that cast the dice know.

agreed. My gut instinct tells me this one will be one of the most complicated negotiations ever. bailing CS will not be easy and I guess its why UPS feels they need to pause to talk to CS directly. If this were the standard type negotiations I think we could have been done already. But buying out pensions will muck up the works and slow down the process considerably. I think its past the normal lets have a strike vote in august ok you guys scared us type program run in the past. This one will take a lot of time due to the complexities involved. When the final proposal hits the press we will then have much to pour through and analyze. These talks will either go down in history as the greatest contract ever because it saved the pensions or another failure due to the trust issue that keeps a bar between our sides. We will either make history or become a distant part of history. Only time will tell.

One point again and interestingly enough I heard it from a high ranking official in another union , if the teamsters settle too early then the thought will be that they did not ask for enough. therefore it seems that hoffa and his boys pretty much have to drag this out to give the impression they fought hard for everything they got. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

 

[moreluck]

UPS CEO "optimistic" of new union contract in '07

Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:56AM EDT
CHICAGO, July 24 (Reuters) - The top executive of United Parcel Service Inc. (UPS.N: Quote, Profile, Research) said on Tuesday that he was hopeful the company would have a new contract with its unionized drivers by the end of 2007.
"I'm optimistic that we can have a new contract by the end of the year," Chief Executive Officer Mike Eskew said in a conference call with analysts.
The world's largest package delivery company is in contract negotiations with its drivers in the United States, who are represented by the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. (Reporting by Nick Carey)

 

[satellitedriver]

agreed.
One point again and interestingly enough I heard it from a high ranking official in another union , if the teamsters settle too early then the thought will be that they did not ask for enough. therefore it seems that hoffa and his boys pretty much have to drag this out to give the impression they fought hard for everything they got. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

Sadly, that was the same logic the Hoffa used against Carey in 97'. It forced that strike.
I had a conversation in 97' with a union official and he told me that he always urged the membership to vote No on a contract. His logic was, "If their willing to give that much, that means they are capable of giving more."
I enjoy the study of logic and that statement started my antennas tingling.
The biggest mistake,IMO, would be for the union to try and show a position of strength by trying to use the power of a strike vote.
I truly do not think the majority of UPSER's would go in that direction.
If the majority does, I will "Brown Down" and "dance with the one that brung me."
PAX

 

[RockyRogue]

The biggest mistake,IMO, would be for the union to try and show a position of strength by trying to use the power of a strike vote.
I truly do not think the majority of UPSER's would go in that direction.
If the majority does, I will "Brown Down" and "dance with the one that brung me."
PAX

I agree--without a doubt. A strike vote takes the entire negotiation to another level IMHO.

I, too, would probably "Brown Down," and join other "scabs" to process volume. I resent being called a scab but I'm the one that has to look myself in the mirror every morning. I'm not striking unless its clearly for our benefit. Anything else and I'll wade through picket lines.

Question for you Sat: think we'd have to defend ourselves on our way through picket lines at UPS hubs?1. -Rocky

 

[sawdusttv]

Rock, a fair as defending yourself, the answer is "NO" because there will be far more crossing than there will be standing on the line.

 

[Cole]

I sadly have to agree with you Saw, if the issue was staying in CS at it current state.

therefore it seems that hoffa and his boys pretty much have to drag this out to give the impression they fought hard for everything they got. I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am.

Sort of like last contract. I imagine that happens more than we know.

 

[Dutch Dawg]

Skimming the most recent posts in this thread, I'm left with the impression this debate has become more personnal than anything. So I realize this opinion will probably be lost on many. If members of management posting here truely desire to convince the rest of us as to our best interests with regard to pension and the future of the Company, perhaps they might approach the situtation with a bit less sarcasm and more rational debate. I know in my case it would sure factor in to how I perceive the situtation as presented.

Now some might attempt to get anal here and accuse this post of excatly what it's finding fault with. That's your opinion and you would be entitled to it should that occur. Just remember I'll be one of those voting to accept or reject the contract proposals. I could ultimately be deciding the fate of labor, the fate of the Company, the fate of our careers, why would you wanna pizz me off? It don't make no ¢ .

 

[705red]

Sadly, that was the same logic the Hoffa used against Carey in 97'. It forced that strike.
I had a conversation in 97' with a union official and he told me that he always urged the membership to vote No on a contract. His logic was, "If their willing to give that much, that means they are capable of giving more."
I enjoy the study of logic and that statement started my antennas tingling.
The biggest mistake,IMO, would be for the union to try and show a position of strength by trying to use the power of a strike vote.
I truly do not think the majority of UPSER's would go in that direction.
If the majority does, I will "Brown Down" and "dance with the one that brung me."
PAX

I agree--without a doubt. A strike vote takes the entire negotiation to another level IMHO.

I, too, would probably "Brown Down," and join other "scabs" to process volume. I resent being called a scab but I'm the one that has to look myself in the mirror every morning. I'm not striking unless its clearly for our benefit. Anything else and I'll wade through picket lines.

Question for you Sat: think we'd have to defend ourselves on our way through picket lines at UPS hubs?1. -Rocky

Rock, a fair as defending yourself, the answer is "NO" because there will be far more crossing than there will be standing on the line.

I agree the members wpouldnt strike over the cs pension! But would you stand on a picket line to preserve our medical benefits? Even better how many of you would stand out there to get the p-timers higher starting pay? Im raising my hand for yes what about you?

 

[tieguy]

I agree the members wpouldnt strike over the cs pension! But would you stand on a picket line to preserve our medical benefits? Even better how many of you would stand out there to get the p-timers higher starting pay? Im raising my hand for yes what about you?

You won't have many . Teamsters will spend the money on those already working and paying their dues. They won't fight for the unborn. They realize that eventually ups will be forced to raise the starting wage without the intervention of the union. jmho

 

[tieguy]

Skimming the most recent posts in this thread, I'm left with the impression this debate has become more personnal than anything. So I realize this opinion will probably be lost on many. If members of management posting here truely desire to convince the rest of us as to our best interests with regard to pension and the future of the Company, perhaps they might approach the situtation with a bit less sarcasm and more rational debate. I know in my case it would sure factor in to how I perceive the situtation as presented.
.

Not sure if you're referring to me or some other management poster. not really interested in convincing anyone of anything. Seems like you have some pretty bright labor people here that can do that without my help. I do like to post my opinions on message boards. Not planning on doing any PCM'S while I'm here.

 

[satellitedriver]

Question for you Sat: think we'd have to defend ourselves on our way through picket lines at UPS hubs?1. -Rocky

Rocky,
The way I defended myself in 97' would be the same way I would do in 08'.
Before I crossed the line I would stand in front of, or sit next to, everyone picketing and let them know I would cross the line, unless there was a rational argument for me not going back to work.
If your question is about physical harm crossing the line ,that is your call.
I am not a large person,6ft and 170lbs ,at best. I do have the "Rep" that no one lays a hand on me. Having said that, it is unnerving to have to confront people that you have worked with side by side for a decade and see in their eyes and the words they choose that they are in the mob(not mafia)/group mentality.
The main thing is not to get in a situation that could cause you bodily harm. Strikes play out in there own time. Decisions are made behind closed doors, not the picketline.
I wish I could take my own advice,if the a strike was called on terms that I considered wrong I would "Brown Down" and cross again, come what may.
It is not easy to take a stance in a corporate/union battle and still act and think like an individual.
I hope you never have to make the choice.
PAX

 

[satellitedriver]

Tie, really why do you hate carey so much? .

I do not know about Tie's emotional connection to carey.
I know why I have a negative emotional connection,
( hate is such a negative word, even when it conveys the correct sentiments)
to carey.
Does 1997 ring a bell?

 

[RockyRogue]

I agree the members wouldnt strike over the cs pension! But would you stand on a picket line to preserve our medical benefits? Even better how many of you would stand out there to get the p-timers higher starting pay? Im raising my hand for yes what about you?

D*mn straight I wouldn't stand on a picket line for Central Mistakes!!! I think you'd be very hard pressed to find a p/t'er--other than a lifetime p/t'er--that would! I have a hard time trusting the Teamsters, Red. I'd have to go 'digging' online to find out if the real reason behind a strike was for the health benefits. I really doubt UPS would be stupid enough to stand fast on throwing out the health insurance. Pay for some of it? OK, I can probably deal with that. Getting the p/t'ers better starting pay? I'm behind ya on that. However, we're right back to trusting the IBT. I see that as being a smoke-screen for a strike...IMHO. I'd have to agree with Tie, by the way. I really think the union will let UPS be forced to raise the starting wage. The level it is right now is bringing us the "dregs" of most major cities' working population.

Rocky,
Before I crossed the line I would stand in front of, or sit next to, everyone picketing and let them know I would cross the line, unless there was a rational argument for me not going back to work.
If your question is about physical harm crossing the line ,that is your call.
I am not a large person,6ft and 170lbs ,at best. I do have the "Rep" that no one lays a hand on me. Having said that, it is unnerving to have to confront people that you have worked with side by side for a decade and see in their eyes and the words they choose that they are in the mob(not mafia)/group mentality.
The main thing is not to get in a situation that could cause you bodily harm. Strikes play out in there own time. Decisions are made behind closed doors, not the picketline.

Very rational approach to crossing the lines, Satellite. In Denver, I'm not as concerned about physical harm. Yeah, we have tough people/staunch union supporters but I'd be much more concerned in union bastions--Chicago, NYC, Boston, etc. I was asking because I seem to remember, even though I was barely in my teens, how there were a couple of stabbings or other violent events on the picket lines or on routes against "scabs."

It is not easy to take a stance in a corporate/union battle and still act and think like an individual.
I hope you never have to make the choice.

No, its not easy. I'm more concerned about the "personal" aspect than the union/UPS side. Supporting a strike for something other than our benefit--health benefits, for example--would be difficult for my conscience, let alone justify to family that would be disappointed I didn't stand firm against adversity, etc. Jobs come and go but you have to live with decisions for the rest of your life. I, too, hope I'm never put into the position of having to decide if I'm going to cross a picketline. So far in my working career I've worked for two unionized grocers and UPS. I haven't had to made a picketline decision yet. -Rocky

 

[705red]

D*mn straight I wouldn't stand on a picket line for Central Mistakes!!! I think you'd be very hard pressed to find a p/t'er--other than a lifetime p/t'er--that would! I have a hard time trusting the Teamsters, Red. I'd have to go 'digging' online to find out if the real reason behind a strike was for the health benefits. I really doubt UPS would be stupid enough to stand fast on throwing out the health insurance. Pay for some of it? OK, I can probably deal with that. Getting the p/t'ers better starting pay? I'm behind ya on that. However, we're right back to trusting the IBT. I see that as being a smoke-screen for a strike...IMHO. I'd have to agree with Tie, by the way. I really think the union will let UPS be forced to raise the starting wage. The level it is right now is bringing us the "dregs" of most major cities' working population.



Very rational approach to crossing the lines, Satellite. In Denver, I'm not as concerned about physical harm. Yeah, we have tough people/staunch union supporters but I'd be much more concerned in union bastions--Chicago, NYC, Boston, etc. I was asking because I seem to remember, even though I was barely in my teens, how there were a couple of stabbings or other violent events on the picket lines or on routes against "scabs."



No, its not easy. I'm more concerned about the "personal" aspect than the union/UPS side. Supporting a strike for something other than our benefit--health benefits, for example--would be difficult for my conscience, let alone justify to family that would be disappointed I didn't stand firm against adversity, etc. Jobs come and go but you have to live with decisions for the rest of your life. I, too, hope I'm never put into the position of having to decide if I'm going to cross a picketline. So far in my working career I've worked for two unionized grocers and UPS. I haven't had to made a picketline decision yet. -Rocky

Rocky in your short career with ups how have the teamsters wronged you? You so negative about the teamsters im sure they have wronged you, or are you just taking sides with others who have been wronged? I really hope your not making an opinion of the teamsters just from what you have read on here!