Vote count.

[Integrity]

You swapped terms here. I said the world is absolutely governed ... not me as a person. Even so, I think each of us, myself included, is far more governed by the dictates of money and production than it's pleasant to admit, and the parts of us that aren't matter to us, sure, but have little bearing on the world. Who isn't dependent on the global market at this point?

i did not swap terms I used your terms.

So are you telling me the answer to the question I asked you is that you are not absolutely governed by money and production.

 

[Integrity]

There's no danger I won't, haha. After 2 decades in the workforce I've learned not to expect much.

I expect great things when the rank and file decide to rise up in solidarity using correct means to have the voice of the working man heard.

 

[Whither]

i did not swap terms I used your terms.

So are you telling me the answer to the question I asked you is that you are not absolutely governed by money and production.

Let me make this simple. The world is absolutely governed by money and production. A person is not the same as the world. However, since a person's life is dependent on the world, as persons we are governed to a great extent, tyrannically I will add, by the dictates of money and production.

 

[IVE GOTTA PACKAGE 4U]

Part timers and full times don’t vote.

I voted and always will

 

[Integrity]

It's a sad equation that 'speaking one's mind' gets reduced to casting a vote. I have no interest in quibbling re: voting or not voting, just saying that voting is a pretty limited activity.

Each man or woman of integrity should speak their mind in the correct avenues as Unionism, the CBA, and worst case the NLRB regulatory bodies such as OSHA provide. And there are many correct methods available. Some will some won’t why? Who knows.
But IMHO the vote has to be viewed as the minimum method that every Union member should feel obligated to make their voice heard.

 

[Whither]

Each man or woman of integrity should speak their mind in the correct avenues as Unionism, the CBA, and worst case the NLRB regulatory bodies such as OSHA provide. And there are many correct methods available. Some will some won’t why? Who knows.
But IMHO the vote has to be viewed as the minimum method that every Union member should feel obligated to make their voice heard.

And wildcat strikes -- are those correct means, or incorrect?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

And wildcat strikes -- are those correct means, or incorrect?

They may be morally correct, based on the circumstances, but in a regulatory sense, they are incorrect.

 

[Integrity]

Let me make this simple. The world is absolutely governed by money and production. A person is not the same as the world. However, since a person's life is dependent on the world, as persons we are governed to a great extent, tyrannically I will add, by the dictates of money and production.

I disagree with your perspective.

I believe each person is personally responsible for their contribution and response to the world system of their time as they see it.

By this each person can affect change in the world system.

1 person can make a difference.

 

[Integrity]

And wildcat strikes -- are those correct means, or incorrect?

Read the CBA.

IMHO
Arguably incorrect.

 

[Whither]

They may be morally correct, based on the circumstances, but in a regulatory sense, they are incorrect.

And in a regulatory sense, basically most of the things that working stiffs have ever done to improve their (our) lives have fallen, at best, into gray areas ... if they haven't been openly illegal and met with violent force (the National Guard, police, pinkertons, scab militias, etc) ...

 

[Integrity]

And in a regulatory sense, basically most of the things that working stiffs have ever done to improve their (our) lives have fallen, at best, into gray areas ... if they haven't been openly illegal and met with violent force (the National Guard, police, pinkertons, scab militias, etc) ...

FYI
It is September 1, 2019.

 

[BigUnionGuy]

There's also an element of inertia involved. I think enough people are just fine with the way things are, or don't believe any changes , one way or the other, will make much difference, they have no reason to take action.

The reason I continue to point to leadership is because this sort of thing is right out of the totalitarianism play book. As long as the masses still have something to lose, they are not likely to risk making changes, or more likely to trust those in authority positions to make decisions. This is a herd mentality phenomenon. It is exploited by corrupt people in authority positions to do pretty much whatever they want. This is one reason why I put much of the responsibility on the shoulders of leadership.

I don't deny the accountability of the individual, however. It is just as much the responsibility of each person to do their civic duty, vote, be involved and keep the "leaders" honest. Those who don't are likely to reap what they sow, but they also drag those who are involved down with them.

In our own interests, what can we do to whip our fellow members into shape? How can we encourage more involvement? My main tactic is to try to win people over, one at a time as they each run into a situation that adversely impacts them. I help them through the situation, then I try to help them connect the dots between the situation that affected them and increasing their involvement. My thinking is that this will motivate them intrinsically because they have an experience to draw from that they will want to take action to avoid in the future. But this process is very slow going, so I am open to any other ideas.

I don't even know where to begin.... with these thoughts.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

And in a regulatory sense, basically most of the things that working stiffs have ever done to improve their (our) lives have fallen, at best, into gray areas ... if they haven't been openly illegal and met with violent force (the National Guard, police, pinkertons, scab militias, etc) ...

Was it the Kentucky Coal Miners who were forced back to work by the Sherrif's department through violence? Situations like that were examples of abuses of power by both government and business owners alike. The actions taken by the workers in fighting back were morally and legally correct.

We don't face dire circumstances like those these days. On the one hand we should be happy that we don't, on the other hand we need to remain vigilant to prevent a slow backward slide. The conundrum we face is that contentment with circumstances is a, if not the, goal, but contentment breeds complacency. If a majority are content with circumstances, who are any of us to challenge that? The key to motivating action in the majority is to make them uncomfortable, or at least convince them that they should be discontent, but should we want to be responsible for that?

 

[zubenelgenubi]

I don't even know where to begin.... with these thoughts.

I know, thinking is hard...

 

[Whither]

In our own interests, what can we do to whip our fellow members into shape? How can we encourage more involvement? My main tactic is to try to win people over, one at a time as they each run into a situation that adversely impacts them. I help them through the situation, then I try to help them connect the dots between the situation that affected them and increasing their involvement. My thinking is that this will motivate them intrinsically because they have an experience to draw from that they will want to take action to avoid in the future. But this process is very slow going, so I am open to any other ideas.

There's no magic bullet and, honestly, I don't think the prospects are bright for reigniting the push for better wages and conditions. We all know the long trend: the unions are bleeding out members. The culture is very different now than when the unions were formed, e.g., it is common to not know your neighbors and coworkers, to communicate primarily via screens (as we do here, of course), etc etc.

I don't think union leadership (across the board) has ever been too keen to cultivate rank and file enthusiasm ... after all, the rank and file might decide to take a course contrary to the brass's interests, might decide that we are capable of governing and directing ourselves, no longer requiring their services ...

When I joined I asked my stew if there was an initiation ceremony for our local. He chuckled and told me "when you see your pay getting deducted, that's your initiation right there."

 

[BigUnionGuy]

I know, thinking is hard...

Sadly.... it's just theoretical.

Been toying around with the idea of making a quick reference guide/index/concordance to make it easier to find language in the contract. It would also include explanations on the interpretations of the language, hopefully with references to applicable panel and arbitration decisions. This is something I think would be cool to organize and divvy up different sections to anyone interested in helping. If anyone likes the idea and wants to help, let me know.

I applaud your positive attitude.

 

[zubenelgenubi]

Sadly.... it's just theoretical.

No need to be sad, if you can't conceptualize a problem within a theoretical framework, you can't hope to develop meaningful solutions.

I applaud your positive attitude.

I don't content myself with bemoaning problems and assigning blame to conjectural scapegoats in order to avoid responsibility in coming up with a solution. But the problems are complex, and must be broken down into manageable chunks, examined, understood, then solutions must be developed and tested. If you don't do those things, then you have to accept and embrace your role in being part of the problem, or maybe just live in denial.

 

[Whither]

FYI
It is September 1, 2019.

Golly gee, you're right. Let's sing to the tune of those old Philips ads, "It's getting better all the time!"

 

[Whither]

Was it the Kentucky Coal Miners who were forced back to work by the Sherrif's department through violence? Situations like that were examples of abuses of power by both government and business owners alike. The actions taken by the workers in fighting back were morally and legally correct.

We don't face dire circumstances like those these days. On the one hand we should be happy that we don't, on the other hand we need to remain vigilant to prevent a slow backward slide. The conundrum we face is that contentment with circumstances is a, if not the, goal, but contentment breeds complacency. If a majority are content with circumstances, who are any of us to challenge that? The key to motivating action in the majority is to make them uncomfortable, or at least convince them that they should be discontent, but should we want to be responsible for that?

I take it you've seen Harlan County, USA? Yes, that's only one example of many in which it's clear that the rank and file's interest is not identical to the union's, let alone the company's or the government's.

It's hard to say that a fair portion of people don't face awful circumstances. How many children are considered malnourished in this country, by far the richest that's ever existed? How many people commit suicide or else wreck their lives via drug/alcohol addictions? How many people are on prescriptions for depression, anxiety, ADHD, etc etc etc? As RPCDs we still make good money, but that's the exception that proves the rule. And of course even our working conditions are very far from ideal, and we are correct to detest them. Last week I narrowly missed ending my career thanks to a set of 110lb irregs ... was this close to falling out the back of the pkg car trying to dislodge the second of 4 3x3 pieces that had been jammed on top of several other irregs and between the shelves ... was this! close to falling out the back of the pkg car trying to dislodge the second of 4 3x3 ft pieces that had been jammed on top of numerous other irregs and was stuck between the shelves of my P-1200 to boot ... would've hit my ramped hand truck on the way down to the deck ...

Since the Recession I have watched the midwestern city where I reside slowly but surely go the way of the coastal cities. More lofts and condos, more boutiques, higher rents, flatlined wages -- at a glance everything looks bright and shiny. But you walk and drive the streets, the bum population grows every year. The murder rates are almost as high as during the peak of the 80s-early 90s crime wave. People are working 3 part-time jobs with no benefits to hack it in an 'affordable' city.

 

[Whither]

Dup-post, does not void the above ha.