raceanoncr
Well-Known Member
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who are you going to vote for and why
- Thread starter upsers22.3
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The reason you do not understand my post is because it is the truth. What in the world does Hoffa the movie have to do with our conversation? There was nothing referenced about Hoffa the movie. You have that Business agent touch by avoiding the issues and creating a total new issue that no one cares about. UPS during that strike lost major profits for the two weeks of the strike. Many of their account holders are always concerned thus lighting a fire under UPS to give a fair contract and to have it ratified in a timely manner. I will make sure I indent my next paragraph for you here in a moment.
Based on labor laws and talking to a labor lawyer on numerous occasions, a contract can change at the snap of the finger. The union can negotiate any of this new technology tactics that you mention at the snap of the finger if the union wants but has chose not to until this election process has started. Do not confuse check and balance with stupidity. Any time there is work place violence that is automatic termination and has nothing to do with checks and balance amongst management and employees. Stop with the propaganda please especially with Carey and the too dumb to understand phrase. I am not a TDU supporter but they give vital information this union keeps tight to the vest like the CIA. At the end of the day, Hoffa will continue his concession campaign in the next contract if elected and you will be lucky to have a job because Hoffa is willing to sell teamsters out for 6.5 billion dollars and do not forget it.
Many blame Fred Gegare over the central states disaster but Hoffa should have some oversight over that pension plan. Hoffa is quick to throw the blame else where instead of holding his people accountable along with himself.
Umm, your not to quick with "uptake" are you? Nevermind, it was a complicated joke about the movie, and I guess you missed it.
To your points, I dont really know if you and I work for the same UPS? Why are you so fired up? Your talking about strikes and profits and account holders? What for? Do you believe that negotiating the next contract should begin with a threat to strike?
UPS has informed the UNION that it intends on negoitating the next contract early, just like it did in the last contract. We came nowhere near the august 31st deadline. UPS has no intention of getting to the deadline this time either. It knows the Teamsters want some changes in package, feeder , part time and 22.3 and those wont be easy to settle.
At the end of the day, each committee must be prepared, informed and ready to present a plan for each article of the NMA that needs change. Each local must negoitate their own package riders and sort riders, and each region must negotiate supplementals.
These are the responsiblity of the locals and not HOFFA. If the national master agreement doesnt provide good language that you are satisfied with , then your package rider or sort rider should fill in the gap and provide those protections.
If you are saying that you dont believe Hoffa would strike UPS because of his "friendly" association with UPS, then you must be saying Sandy Pope is prepared to call a strike against UPS and I can guarantee you my friend, the majority of UPSers wouldnt support that action.
If Sandy Pope is representing that she is prepared to strike UPS before a good faith negotiation, then that alone is reason enough not to vote for her. I do not subscribe to TDU or their information, and I am plenty informed. I am not worried.
There is no need for panic or fist waving. This isnt the 20's.
Peace.
M
MenInBrown
Guest
Just like any other election...when things are not going good or the way you expect them to...put someone new in office. Sometimes people get too comfortable with their position and forget the ones who put them there.
3 done 3 to go
In control of own destiny
It really doesn't matter who wins. I think union needs a new direction. If Hoffa wins the contract will be done 6 months ahead of '13 term. If Pope/Gregare wins(Pope) it will go down to the wire. The part-timers are the deciding factor on any contract. Full-time are along for the ride. Ups just needs to cater to the pt. The contract will pass no matter what. I wish we could be separate contracts. Then we all would have a voice for each job. For all of the Pt that want to B&C about the above- Yeah-Yeah. For every one that is well informed. There are 40-50,maybe more that aren't. A bunch of kids worried about their next ck.For the night out. (not of those with kids of their own)
In the end we need to decide on who is elected. I think the FT driver would be better represented with Pope. Not sold out again by Hoffa(Overnight card ck)
In the end we need to decide on who is elected. I think the FT driver would be better represented with Pope. Not sold out again by Hoffa(Overnight card ck)
Stick to waffling comedy is not your strong suit. As to the panicking and fist waving, when your livelihood is at stake should you not be concerned? All I hear from you is local this and local that, we are talking about the IBT right now not the California local that you just happen to represent. I would love to hear some members from your local voice their opinion on your representation as an executive officer but according to you I am sure you are the best. If you believe in Hoffa that is your right and opinion but at least give some substance to your reasoning for supporting Hoffa.
raceanoncr
Well-Known Member
The Other Side:
"Someday, youll learn not to drink the octane booster and post something of some relevance on a thread. Your begining to sound like moreluck."
"I know you are but what am I?"
Geez, 52 years old? How do you do it?
"Someday, youll learn not to drink the octane booster and post something of some relevance on a thread. Your begining to sound like moreluck."
"I know you are but what am I?"
Geez, 52 years old? How do you do it?
Did you miss my positions? I said that I have disagreements with Hoffa/Hall, mostly with Hall in his handling of the last contract. That doesnt mean I believe they are unqualified. I had a desenting opinion of the contract then and voiced my objections to it clearly.
What most of you are missing is the reality of negotiations of a contract. Hoffa doesnt sit at each table and negotiate each aspect of the contract. Thats what the committees do. Those committees are made up of the various locals around the country. In theory, the best minds in the business coming together to put together a strong contract.
But, in reality, not all locals are experienced with UPS technologies and change as we would like to believe. Some locals primary focus isnt on UPS as they have one hub or a small representation of UPSers. There expertise may be in other industries and that doesnt help when talking about edd or pas, or trace, or gps or any other technological device/program UPS has in the works.
For example, in the last contract setting, article 6 language was negotiated and agreed to. UPS at the time, informed the UNION that its new GPS technology would only be used for SAFETY PURPOSES and the UNION team on Article 6 believed it. When the contract was sent out for ratification, each local repeated this agreement to its members despite the many complaints lodged against the new language in article 6.
Sure enough, 1 year after ratification, UPS began a transition from safety to discipline using the new article 6 language as their guide. The 1 caveat in article 6 said "on the first offense", but what about afterwards?
This was a simple mistake made by the article 6 team. They didnt have the foresight to see what was coming. Some of us did, and said so on this very board. Check my posts on the subject. Everything that is happening today is what i said during ratification.
This isnt Hoffas fault, its OURS. We as a group ratified the contract and left the language to stand. Another example is the 9.5 language, there, an open door to modification was left on the table and sure enough, the language in article 37 relating to 9.5 was modified a year after it was ratified.
Again, Hoffas fault or ours? We had the chance to stop and make changes, but the majority wanted to settle the contract as they will do again in 2013.
This is what I am trying to tell you guys, fist waving and gettting all excited today is useless. The next contract will be settled early and if the Teamsters are smart, they will place the right people on the right committees who know not only what is happening, but what could potentially be coming down the road.
Do I personally believe Sandy Pope is the person who will ensure a solid contract? NO WAY. Would I endorse her? NO WAY. hall and all the locals know that UPSers are fed up with the current treatment at UPS, this time around, I know for a fact that they are reaching out to the most experienced in the field.
When the time comes, I will tell you all what committees I will sit on. I did not get invited to the 2008 contract meetings as well as many other qualified teamsters. This time will be different. I assure you.
Peace.
Now let me get this straight, this committee known as the teamsters national united parcel service negotiating committee that has James P. Hoffa, chair, hall, co chair, Leon Cooper, sgt at arms, Anthony Magrene, sgt at arms, C.Thomas Keegel, and 69 other Teamster brass posted on page 162 of the National Master United Parcel Service Agreement did not have anything to do with the National Master United Parcel Service Agreement? I know my supplement is different from California supplement based on various laws within my state compared to California. You cannot believe that a supplement in California is the same as a supplement in New York. At the end of the day we all know who to hold accountable for our supplement but we also know who to hold accountable for the national side of the agreement.
To sit here and blame the membership for their lack of knowledge of what was going in this contract is rather criminal on your behalf and let me explain why. Reason number one, Hoffa paid for all business agents and presidents of locals to be sent to Vegas to push this lousy contract down our throats. My local president stated during our craft meeting that this was a great contract. Our pensions were secured not noting anyone under central states would have to retire during this contract or face losing portion of their pension because UPS has only guaranteed their pension until 2013. After 2013, hold your breath with Central States. This type of information was with held. My local president made it known that the part timers would not be well represented in this contract but he quoted,"We will take care of them next time."
UPS were having focus group meetings on the job pushing the employees to vote yes for this contract. How absurd is that? UPS knew they had the upper hand on this whole entire contract. When negotiating each side is suppose feel as though they both lost because each one gain something significant but the union gain absolutely nothing in this contract and pushed individuals to ratify this contract except in and you guessed it New York. Their union officials did not buy into the foolishness and gave the people the truth about a contract that no one had in their hands to browse except union officials. So I ask you as an union official and I know you voted no but did you inform the people on the union floor that this was a poor contract and give them the facts? If not, then you are no different than Hoffa.
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Once again you message is littered with half truths and the usual TDU mis information that runs rampant every election cycle.
First, The brass is the "brass" of the negotiating committee, and the 69 "others" are the teams that works on specific issues in the contract. Hoffa/Hall work on the NMA, and EACH LOCAL works on their OWN specific Package/Sort Rider, and each region (like the west) works on the supplementals and riders or moa's.
If you believe that Hoffa and his staff work on everything by themselves, then you clearly dont understand how it works. Second, you said this "Reason number one, Hoffa paid for all business agents and presidents of locals to be sent to Vegas to push this lousy contract down our throats".
Where do you get this information? How do you come to this conclusion?
At the local level, the Eboard chooses to attend and selects members to go along. That could be 10 , that could be 25 people. THE LOCAL pays for all attendees, NOT HOFFA. You are out of your mind if you believe otherwise. The LOCAL pays for travel, lodging and a daily per diem.
Dont be an idiot or sound like one saying HOFFA pays everyone to attend. Thats ridiculous TDU nonsense.
As for the contract, of course they told us it was great, they believed it was. For the most part, it was a successful contract. Like I said, not everything in it I agreed with, but on the whole, as long as you do you job properly, you'd be ok.
The overtime language was modified to our deteriment afterwards, and that falls on hall and not Hoffa. hall trusted UPS when it came to overtime limitations and they broke their word on "their" agreement with the Teamsters. This will be addressed next round. There will be NO options this time.
As for central states, well, thats a whole other animal. Its a shame for those members and I have nothing to offer as an explanation for its collapse.
You said your local president promoted the contract and told you it was great, did you miss where I said all locals were saying this to their membership? In my local, I had a spirited argument on the floor with our officers who came and said the same thing, my argument was on many levels. I addressed technology which I felt was unaddressed and open to negative interpretation (article 6) I addressed excessive overtime which knowing the system, I knew that open door to future modification was going to hurt the membership, I addressed sleeper teams language which in our package rider was ultimately going to cost us runs, and it did.
These are all things that are to be blamed at the local level and not HOFFA. If the locals ( the 69 others you mention) confer with Hoffa and tell him that everything is cool, then Hoffa and his team accept the opinions of the negoitating committees. HOFFA doesnt tell them what to do.
Once its all done, all the locals have to be on the same page or they disagree and call for a vote down. Some locals did just that. The rest of the locals fell in line, but so did we.
YOU have to understand that the membership IS responsible for lack of knowledge, and a lesson should be learned. READ THE CONTRACT when it gets to your home, understand it, ask questions, seek a second opinion before you submit a YES vote.
The majority of UPS teamsters said YES and most of those didnt read the dam thing. Voter turnout was lousy and yet 100% of the membership want to complain about it.
Look , I think we are somewhat on the same playing field with this contract, but we have a different perspective about it.. I am able to view it from the inside out and you from the outside in.
When the contract was sent out for ratification, for 5 straight days, I sat in front of my hub with signs, a table, the contract and each article or section that I felt needed to be changed or improved. The members stopped to read or ask questions about it. UPS tried to stop me from doing so and even my local took a couple of shots at me for doing it. Then at the hall, I argued with them to no avail.
However, in my local we only had 1100 yes votes out of a potential 10000. Thats how weak the membership is when it comes to voting. The rest didnt bother to vote. Its the same story across the country.
Selections to the negotiating committees is political. Many locals went through changes after the last contract, and those with previous experience were left out of negotiations last time. I know for a fact that this time, the Teamsters are already taking steps to avoid making the same mistakes.
As long as the membership is not 100% involved, there will always be bad contracts. We have the voice to approve or disapprove any contract, the problem is however, NOBODY wants to strike, so they will settle for whatever is placed in front of them.
Its that easy.
Peace.
Now you are making some points I will agree with you on. My local have roughly 5,000 upsers and there were roughly 1500 yes to 250 no. That was a sad event to me and rather disappointing. I will give you respect for your actions on enlightening the masses but let us be for real on the issue of the contract. Only the priveleged knew what was going on with that contract. Hell it took almost four months to receive union books after the contract was ratified. As to the local paying to send the business agents out to Vegas with accomodations of course but to say that Hoffa did not have entertainment and everything else in between just like the delegate convention lets not kid ourselves and the union business involved promoting a weak contract to the UPsers.
This is why I am hoping for a much better turn around when it comes to voting this time around because regardless of who an individual is supporting union participation is a must in order to have a strong union. To your reference as to Hoffa and the committee, that is a half ass chair in my opinion. Do you think wall street operate in the manner? No, How about corporate America? No. Hoffa should know the important matters that affect every single member in a contract and that would relate to the master agreement not so much the riders and supplements. I guess that is why Hoffa refuses to debate on the issues because hell he does not know the issues and now you are making sense for why Hoffa does not show up for debates.
Good luck to my Teamster members out there in California and abroad because we are going to need it if we follow the same status quo.
MR_Vengeance
United Parcel Survivor
Hoffool can kiss my behind. GO SANDY!!!!!!!!!
To this , I say Kudos, I agree with you. The books were printed late and handed out late, but in a slight defense of the union, not all MOA's were agreed to in time and delayed the printing, that being said, extra time was taken in preparation, proof reading and selecting the printer. The books should always be out to the members ASAP and not whenever. In todays digital world, we will be able to see the final version ONLINE long before the book comes out. This will help us out in learning whats inside and allow all of us to make a good decision.
Let me confirm something for you. Its something many dont know about compensation and the local union.
Each person who attends a convention or teamster event is paid by the local. That means, their weekly paycheck, lodging and transportation (spouses have to pay themselves) and a per diem that can range anywhere from $125.00 to $225.00 (per day) depending on the Eboards vote and decision on policy.
There are meetings that MUST be attended, and some are B.S., some days are 2 hours long and then golfing and other sorts of personal entertainment. There are federal requirements to meet in the form of meetings in order to stay within the legality of union money spent.
At the joint council convention for instance for us in the southwest, all the locals arrive with all agents, officers and office staff. We meet all week for meetings, and then on saturday night, a giant dinner meeting that takes up 4 ball rooms takes place. Guest speakers blah blah blah for a couple of hours, and then a GIANT drawing for prizes takes place! Yes, I said PRIZES. The joint council purchases tens of thousands of dollars in merchandise from refrigerators, to Televisions, to microwaves, to phones, to playstations,to video game sets, to lawn mowers, to sporting goods, to electronics, to household appliances, to furniture..etc etc IS GIVEN AWAY IN A DRAWING.
Union dues pay for this merchandise of course, and members can buy extra tickets for the drawing for $1.
I had a serious problem with this policy when I first experienced it. The local buys tickets for each officer. Agents and staff must buy their own tickets. I won a playstation2, a lawn mower and a boombox, in my first attendance. I donated all three items to my local boys club.
I dont support things like this, but its been a practice for decades. Perks of the job. Some of you may think this sucks, and some may agree with it, but its the nature of the business. Nobody is going to stop the practice.
Yes, Vegas Conferences are basically play time, but at the end of the day, The teamsters are supporting the local teamsters (hotel workers) by keeping the hotel ( BALLYS) filled to the brim.
There are many things like this that happen in the union business, and they will always happen. Its all legal, and in some respects wasteful, but bringing that many people together is good for the brotherhood.
Hoffa didnt create this climate, and we cant hold him responsbible for it. I just wanted you to know something really "inside".
Peace.
Thank you for that information and I must say this has been an educational discussion with you and for the most part I hope I gained your respect as you gained mine along with a better understanding of how us outsiders see this union.
Absolutely.
I may seem harsh, but I have enough experience to know the inside outs on a ton of UPS / Union issues. I respect your involvement, your motivation and determination to debate. Thats what keeps us fresh.
Opposite opinions bring out the best of both persons in a union debate. I believe we have the same goal in mind, and while our perspectives are off in a few spots, the end game is what matters. I will say, that if Sandy Pope wins the office of general president, i will support her and help her to make the UPS contract a better document for all of us.
If Hoffa wins, he will still hear our complaints and we will still work for a better document that we all can sign.
Peace.
Not exactly bro. Here in New York Local 804, our executive board at the time endorsed that contract!! They called it : "Fair for the times". A matter of fact you mention Anthony Magrene as sgt at arms on the National Master Committee. He was our sec treasury. We the rank and file of local 804 turned down our supplemental and forced our eboard to make improvements. In 2009, a reform slate ran against them and beat the old board 2 to 1!! Though the new board isnt living up to expectations 100%, they are honest, hard working and a breath of fresh air.
By the way, the only "people" who spoke "the truth about the contract" was TDU's Make UPS Deliver campaign.
DDB was joking Inthegame. He was making fun of Nancy P. Sen. From Cal.
