Who's The Winner In A Strike?

[cheryl]

I have never been hostile towards you or insulted you, i have only spoke my opinion.

You stated that I am a UPS shill. You stated that I sent messages for the purpose of union bashing. Oddly enough I provide this forum which you use to promote your own agenda but you also use it to make damaging false statements about me.

Your repeated personal attacks against me are an attempt to tarnish my reputation and discredit this website use an [wiki]ad hominem[/wiki] argument technique called "[wiki]poisoning the well[/wiki]."

Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy where adverse information about someone is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that person is about to say. Poisoning the well is a special case of argumentum ad hominem.

The irony is that I'm providing you the freedom of access to this venue which others use for productive debates but which you choose to use as a public way to discredit me. Have you heard of defamation of character?

In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against criticism.

 

[705red]

You stated that I am a UPS shill. You stated that I sent messages for the purpose of union bashing. Oddly enough I provide this forum for you to promote your agenda to a wide audience as well as to attempt to bash my reputation and discredit me.

Your repeated personal attacks against me are an attempt to tarnish my reputation and discredit this website use an [wiki]ad hominem[/wiki] argument technique called "[wiki]poisoning the well[/wiki]."

Poisoning the well is a logical fallacy where adverse information about someone is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that person is about to say. Poisoning the well is a special case of argumentum ad hominem.

The irony is that I'm providing you the freedom of access to this venue which others use for productive debates but which you choose to use as a public way to discredit me. Have you heard of defamation of character?

In law, defamation is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against criticism.

Then just simply explain how did you balance out the contract runor debate by starting anti union and union bashing threads? What bearing did these threads have on this issue?

 

[Damok]

Cheryl i call it like i see it. In the mesaging i meant thread starting. You stated you wanted to balence out the info on the contract talks evenly? But yet you post opinions on how the rank and file lose in a strike. I asked you what bearing 10 year old articles have on the current talks? You started 4 or 5 anti union or union bashing threads and none of them were relevenat to the contract debate or the so-called conspiracy to over throw the website with false contract rumors. Well now the contract is out and i have not seen any thing stated that was false. Anyone can google and come up with a million different opinions on the 97 strike, yet you choose to slam us the working men and woman and scare us into excepting what ever we are offered basically. If you want to even the playing surface on a certain topic stick to the topic. If you would have posted proof that the rumors were lies that would have been one thing but you went above and beyond to union bash!

I have never been hostile towards you or insulted you, i have only spoke my opinion.

If you don't learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it. You might want to keep that in mind then go back and re-read what Cheryl posted.

I'd like you to post direct quotes showing Cheryl slamming us and scaring us into voting one way or another. I must have missed something because I'm not scared.

Where did Cheryl say that the contract rumors were lies?

I think anyone that goes back and reads your posts would be able to see your hostility Red. You're obviously passionate about your job and the contract but I think you may want to think about what you write before putting it down on paper, as it were.

 

[tonyexpress]

Then just simply explain how did you balance out the contract runor debate by starting anti union and union bashing threads? What bearing did these threads have on this issue?

What are you talking about?

Did you even read the original articles?

:Who's the winner in a strike.

:Rank-and-File hurt most by UPS strike

:United Parcel Service - Follow up Report, One Year After The Strike

:EPI Study: UPS Strike -- Few Gains, Fewer Jobs

Where's the article that says: Unions suck, go hug your supervisor???

The jist of these stories are the realities of a strike and the impact on all. It is hardly union bashing to post more than one viewpoint!

Put yourself in all UPSer's shoes and realize they are entitled to be informed on how a strike could affect them.

This was not biased material stating her opinion, it was information on what a strike can do to the Union, Company, Employees, and Customers from a different point of view than was being overwhelmingly posted at that time. If these were articles bashing the union I fail to see that and your claim as such is unfounded.

Perhaps you should go back and read them.

You're still out of line saying Cheryl is conducting a scare campaign on behalf of UPS. This is your way to smear her and this site!

 

[cheryl]

Then just simply explain how did you balance out the contract runor debate by starting anti union and union bashing threads? What bearing did these threads have on this issue?

{{{yawn}}} this is getting boring red, I'm not going to bicker with you.

If you really don't understand then go back and re-read all the posts from the past week starting with the one where someone forwarded me the email regarding "taking down" this site with one sided posts.

I'm sure that it's a coincidence that your opinion about the contract and hostility toward me and this site is the same as the email campaign's.

 

[moreluck]

Red...makes me wonder where your "passion" will be when the unions no longer exist.
Golf maybe?

 

[1989]

I felt those articles were informative. They were appropriate to all the posts stating their intention to vote no on this contract.

 

[705red]

Red...makes me wonder where your "passion" will be when the unions no longer exist.
Golf maybe?

Golfs good! Just think about working for ups without a union?

Cheryl said shes done so im saynig im done with this topic, we both voiced our opinions and they differ, but do understand im not trying to take down this site, i find this iste very useful and informational(sometimes) for all of us.

 

[westsideworma]

Are you an old-timer? Afraid of change?

PAS is here to stay...stop bitching about it and work to get your loop fixed. It's as simple as that.

I'm a cover driver and always am going to management to get parts of a bid drivers route fixed. Most are the ones who are fighting the system.

PAS done right is a freaken godsend for a cover driver. So yes it has made our jobs easier. Same for preloaders.

the things that were difficult about preloading are still difficult...I don't know what you're referring to in each of your posts where your believe its such a godsend to preloaders. Loading the stuff in the right spots has never been difficult (for me anyway, but I'm not everyone) its the amount of stuff that must go to those spots and when it comes that makes the job difficult. Not to mention the pace in which they'd like it done with no misloads...EVER. I'm not saying it doesn't help at all, but calling it a godsend is a bit much.

Our service (at least in our hub and neighboring centers) is garbage on PAS compared to before. Oh it looks good because we have people chasing misloads, but if you stopped having management shag packages (a la before PAS...since we never heard them complain then) this system would be exposed for the promising, yet flawed system it is (service wise). My feeling on this is, if we didn't have problems before and now we do, with the same workers...how is it entirely the preloaders fault? I mean its easy for UPS to shift the blame (we're EXCELLENT at that) but thats all they ever seem to do...blame someone and say there we did something.

The line I supervise does well with misloads (we make our 1/1500 MAR weekly fairly often), do I think PAS deserves the credit? NO. Those preloaders do. They are seasoned vets by and large and somehow make it work. I can't speak of EDD but most of the rumblings I've heard aren't good other than a semi-accurate stop count.

Lets look at PAS for what it is, security for UPS in case of a strike, granted it still won't save the company as they'd have to replace workers on all the shifts (as preload depends on the work coming in from the other sorts) but it would lessen the damage.

 

[area43]

Just a few more thoughts on my attempt to try and change the minds of the UPSers that would want to cross the picket line. First, the process in which the Teamsters handle the neg. I will use the present tent. contract 08 as an example. The Teamsters, send out a survey to each of its members(us) on what is important. Then, they take that info and make up a plan to give to UPS. They hammer out a deal. Next, they send it out for a vote. A democratic process. We either vote it down or accept it. Lets just say it gets voted down. Now, what does the Teamsters do next? Do they send out a Strike authorization vote? Why not? Or do they try and work on another counter contract offer/lets say UPS agrees and that gets sent out for a vote? In 97 the first offer was turned down, they(the Teamsters) went right for the Strike Authorization vote, thus eliminating us members a chance to vote on the Counter offer. Btw the Strike Authorization vote was approved. Was that right or wrong? Debatable? With the Strike auth. approved. It basically put all the power and faith in our Teamsters neg comm. hands. This was the democratic process. I will respect that(strike auth. vote) even if I might disagree or voted against it. Please keep all that in mind as I proceed.

Lets go to the the 1992 Presidential campaign. I voted. I did not vote for Bill Clinton. Now, Im not trying to start something here. Just using this as an example. Bill Clinton had some, lets just say questionable character flaws while he was governor of Ark. In relation to the Teamsters, they have some questionable character flaws. LOL Ok, I voted for Bush Sr. Bush lost. Now did I go scale the walls of the White House and drag Bill out of office. No, I did not. I respected the majorities decision to put him in office. In relation to the strike(97) and the Teamsters I believe you have to respect the majorities decision. Right or Wrong. I believe scaling the walls of the White House would be the equivalent of crossing over the picket line. IMO I believe its the line in the sand that shouldn't be crossed. Yes, I am against corruption, but crossing the line is the wrong way of going about changing it. Red, and his local 705 has the right way of changing the union for the better. Thats how it should be done. It maintains a sense of unity among the members. When crossing you have broken the unity. Again, Yes we have problems and differences, but we should work them out on our side of the fence/line.

In closing. Have you ever watched the movie "Scarface" with Al Pacino. In one scene he goes home to his younger sister and mothers house. AL was just starting to reap the rewards of being a mobster. His mother was a very Moral person. Al tried to give his mother some cash, but she through it back at him and told him to leave. She also might have slapped him. LOL The mother did not want to have anything to do with his dirty money. I will now write another script for the movie. Lets say the one that crossed the picket line was the mother. Strong moral convictions. Al Picino was the Teamsters and its members sacrafices in achieving the dirty money(wages and bennies). Extortion/strike. Ok, in this script, the mother would slap Pacino, call him some bad names and kick him out of the house. That would be equal to crossing the picket line. BUT, its not over as you might have noticed she keeps the cash. Hmmmm. I never said she gave back the cash he gave her. The mother is a hypocrite. I m not a very pc type of person, but thats how I feel. If you are going to cross and stand by your convictions and you want my respect this is what you should do.

First, Subtract the difference of your wage from the Fedex non union delivery company and give the difference to charity. Second, Vacations, again subtract from Fedex's vacations. Donate the difference in weeks to charity. As you can see I can go on and on. If you want a change in the Teamsters do it from within. Crossing the picket line does nothing but hurt. Sorry, just my opinion.

 

[UPS Lifer]

Area 43,
I am not sure why this has issue is so hot (crossing a picket line) when the ballots have not been sent out yet!!! BUT....that is OK, since you brought it up I have to strongly agree with you on this.

I may have spent most of my years as a mgmt person but I was a Teamster for 7 years. I have been on both sides of the picket line. I never voted to strike but I held that picket sign for $35 a week strike pay. After 2 weeks, I went to work for a neighbor and held my sign at my posted time. I did what I had to do. It never crossed my mind to scab. I was in downtown LA at the time and one of the drivers from our center who had just come back from disability bad mouthed the rest of the drivers for voting down the contract! That person was never treated the same again and rightly so!

Each person that is eligible to vote needs to make a personal decision based on what is important to them. No one should be intimidated to vote one way or the other.

This has already become a very heated topic and in the future, we all need to show respect for each other and realize that everyone is a sum of their experiences and those experiences help shape us to be the human beings we are. If we remember this, we can contiue to have productive and thought provoking conversations to help others make informative decisions.

 

[1timepu]

What is the point in reposting these anti-union articles?

it is a common sense article, everybody knows it takes years to make up the money you lose during a strike

 

[satellitedriver]

Ever hear of the IRS?

Touche!
The IRS, does spell theirs.
PAX

 

[satellitedriver]

Hi Sat,

Sat with all do respects, I am going to try and convince you not to cross the line. I believe I understand your position on why you crossed. It also appears that you have a strong work ethic.

First, Right to work states. I live in one. I have no problem with it. If someone wants to cross the picket line. Go right ahead. I dont mean to be confrontational with you Sat., but I disagree with your answer on the reason you crossed the line.

Second, Sat when you say you had deep moral convictions and that is why you crossed seems to have a subliminal mess tied to it that says, the rest of us do not. That might not be your intentions, but it does come a cross that way. I did not agree with all that the Teamsters were striking about in 97. Who was? The point is. There were some things in that contract worth fighting for. Ex. Temps to be use 12 mons out of the year. Not good.

Do you know what type of people started the Teamsters. The poop birds and hoods. The old school, highly ethical and conservative workers did not. In fact even with the automakers, it was the trouble makers that started the Union. Organized Labor/ Organized Crime. Hmmmm. Strike, could it be a form of extortion. Perphaps. Teamsters/Mobsters. Having said that I would question all Unions intentions. Yes, they help the common laborer, but in turn do they help themselves? Sat. would you have struck the Ford automobile company in the earlier 1900's. Our would you have crossed the line? Why work for UPS? Could that be against your moral compass? All Pay and bennies that we have acquired over the years are from the result of corrupt means. Extortion. Give us what we want or we will strike you and put you out of business. Sat. just something to think about. Sat what would you strike for? Safety conditions, perphaps.

Let me also throw this at you. Asia. All those sweat shops. Slave labor for American companies. Nike(the shoe company), said years ago when they moved operations over there that the price of shoes would come down. Have they? LOL Why aren't the people of Asia rising up and starting unions? Is it their governments that stops them? Or is it because the people have high moral work standards. Perphaps it goes against their character to start a union/strike. Fear of being replaced,could be another factor. Folks Im just throwing stuff out there. Just to get you thinking. What Asia needs is a Mafia. LOL Organize those people. Do some good ol extortion. Bring those companies to their knees.

Sat. in closing I feel that if your convictions are so strong that you might not to work for UPS anymore. I might be wrong in saying this. Feel free to respond.

If I decide to cross the line in the future, it will be based on the facts of the day.
Just as it was in 97'.
Not being a member of the teamsters will have no bearing on my respecting the picket line. If in my view the cause is just, I will not cross.
Yes, I know the history of the teamsters, all to well. If you want to take the start unionism back farther, you will know it was a Socialistic/Communistic effort fostered by DuBois.
I quit the union and crossed the line in 97' because of the present, not past, corruption and manipulations behind the scenes in the teamsters.(as I have posted Ad Nauseum)
You asked of me, "Why work for UPS?".
The simple answer is because I applied for the job and wanted it and have kept for 21 yrs
When I was hired at UPS as a temporary seasonal hire in 86' I had no idea it was a union job.
UPS told me if I did the job the way they wanted it done they would pay me.
COOL
Now to the morals question.
All the corruption and violence you speak about was brought about by the union.
Never have I been lied to by UPS.
I was lied to by the teamsters.
UPS has always met their financial promises to me.
The teamsters have not.
My convictions are strong enough to be loyal to the ones that have been truthful and loyal to me.
Never have I intentionally sent out a message, subliminal or not, that I have a higher moral standard than anyone else.
I guess I am just a person that was raised with a 1950's mentality.
Different mindset than what I see around me today.
I will just let the rest of you argue, fuss and fight with UPS about how valuable you are to the company and I will continue to try and prove my worth to them.
PAX

 

[Brown Dog]

Knowledge is power. I don't think the contract is a good one, but I do appreciate Cheryl's input of articles relevent to are current situation. I certainly don't want to strike, but I would like are union to go back to the bargaining table and make some improvements in our pension, healthcare costs for retirees, 9.5 language. I wouldn't think of being a scab! I do think our hard work and UPS's enormous profits might warrant a more favorable improvement to hourlys on the topics above. Thanks Cheryl for running such a great open forum for us.

 

[local804]

Then just simply explain how did you balance out the contract runor debate by starting anti union and union bashing threads? What bearing did these threads have on this issue?

Not to stir up the boiling pot but I did take note to this also. It really didnt matter to make a deal about it but I was a little confused. I have nothing against Cheryl and I respect her point of view(even though it constantly favors one side). There have been alot of concerns about trolls posting good and bad about both sides and that seems like fair game. I think Cheryl is a big girl and if she is going at it with a person on this forum, let them two go at it. Personally, I think the two should have took it to emails and some other parties should have butted out but thats just my opinion.

 

[local804]

Knowledge is power. I don't think the contract is a good one, but I do appreciate Cheryl's input of articles relevent to are current situation. I certainly don't want to strike, but I would like are union to go back to the bargaining table and make some improvements in our pension, healthcare costs for retirees, 9.5 language. I wouldn't think of being a scab! I do think our hard work and UPS's enormous profits might warrant a more favorable improvement to hourlys on the topics above. Thanks Cheryl for running such a great open forum for us.

Great post! As long as this site stays "open" I think its pretty fair. I remember a few years back, while voicing my opinions on this board, I was told this wasnt a public board and that it was a private board. I was also told that the constitutuional right did not apply to these forums because they were private.I respected that it was a private board and if any of my views, comments, or directives were deleted out because they were not in favor of the moderators, I would have been pissed, but none ever were. We deal with alot of one way and one sided situations at work and if these boards went that way, there is no reason for me to stay. If everyone was so happy and peachy at this wonderful job, I would be surprised if this board took 500 hits in a year.
Cubbies....lol