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rckfrd98
Guest
feedrman - yes he knows what is a stake, but he is confident that everything will work out.
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deliver_man
Guest
Like you and others, I was expressing my opinion. I feel like I am entitled to do that.
You most certainly are. Opinions are welcome, insults are not.
I am thankful for everything UPS has given us. The medical care alone for our son probably kept us from bankruptcy.
You can thank the union for that, they are the ones who negotiated that great health care for all of us.
When all is said and done, UPS is a great company and you cannot deny that.
I never did, that would be denying the obvious. UPS is a great company, and I give all the credit in the world to the founders and our current management for that fact.
But it is a "great company to work for" because it is a union company. Without the union, I really doubt most of us would be here. And being that the union is supposed to represent our interests at the bargaining table, the posters here (who pay the salaries of the negotiating team and everyone else at the national level) have every right to express their opinions about the contract that the union has negotiated for us.
Like I said, if you want to change some minds, adress the issues that have been raised in a logical manner, without calling people "whiners". You can start by adressing the issue raised by feedrman73, which to all appearances, is something that you and your husband should be pretty concerned about.
You most certainly are. Opinions are welcome, insults are not.
I am thankful for everything UPS has given us. The medical care alone for our son probably kept us from bankruptcy.
You can thank the union for that, they are the ones who negotiated that great health care for all of us.
When all is said and done, UPS is a great company and you cannot deny that.
I never did, that would be denying the obvious. UPS is a great company, and I give all the credit in the world to the founders and our current management for that fact.
But it is a "great company to work for" because it is a union company. Without the union, I really doubt most of us would be here. And being that the union is supposed to represent our interests at the bargaining table, the posters here (who pay the salaries of the negotiating team and everyone else at the national level) have every right to express their opinions about the contract that the union has negotiated for us.
Like I said, if you want to change some minds, adress the issues that have been raised in a logical manner, without calling people "whiners". You can start by adressing the issue raised by feedrman73, which to all appearances, is something that you and your husband should be pretty concerned about.
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wkmac
Guest
"Other than the fact that I was in management for over 28 years and am now retired, I plan to vote yes on the proposed contract. Guess I won't have a ballot mailed to the house"
Hey Badhab1,
You remember those beer cans you were picking up along the side of the road prior to the handshake? You didn't find and drink some of that skunky beer now did you? LOL @ your comments above!
mac
BTW:For a generous donation to the right union official I'm sure you too can vote on the contract. LOL!
Hey Badhab1,
You remember those beer cans you were picking up along the side of the road prior to the handshake? You didn't find and drink some of that skunky beer now did you? LOL @ your comments above!
mac
BTW:For a generous donation to the right union official I'm sure you too can vote on the contract. LOL!
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rckfrd98
Guest
Deliver Man:
I was stating a fact, not throwing out insults. You have your opinion and I have mine. Let's just leave it at that and call it a night!
I was stating a fact, not throwing out insults. You have your opinion and I have mine. Let's just leave it at that and call it a night!
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brown666
Guest
A no vote is the only vote for any member in the Central States Pension Fund. A side deal in the contract between the company and the union will freeze the pension for eleven years!Enough said!!
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eddie138301
Guest
hey ja7618, For your info I have been a package car driver for 20 years. I have a wife and 2 teenagers at home. I cannot count the things i have missed in my childrens lives because of the forced overtime.
That is things I cannot ever recover. I will retire at 25 years and out, regardless. I don't need the so called asst. help from ups. I have a 4-year degree to use when I retire. How about you? How many years have you been employed by ups?
I have seen employees harrassed and fired for little things in the last 20 years.All I have ever wanted from management is to let me do my job every day and leave me alone.
That is things I cannot ever recover. I will retire at 25 years and out, regardless. I don't need the so called asst. help from ups. I have a 4-year degree to use when I retire. How about you? How many years have you been employed by ups?
I have seen employees harrassed and fired for little things in the last 20 years.All I have ever wanted from management is to let me do my job every day and leave me alone.
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wkmac
Guest
brown666,
You keep bringing up the side deal for an 11 year freeze on the Central States Pension fund but where's the proof. This may very well be true but I'm not going to accept as fact some internet post from someone I don't know. Same goes with me if I make some statement without facts to back it up. We need facts not a Mulder/X Files conspiracy theory! Any facts would be most appreciated.
mac
You keep bringing up the side deal for an 11 year freeze on the Central States Pension fund but where's the proof. This may very well be true but I'm not going to accept as fact some internet post from someone I don't know. Same goes with me if I make some statement without facts to back it up. We need facts not a Mulder/X Files conspiracy theory! Any facts would be most appreciated.
mac
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wkmac
Guest
Brown666,
OK I found what I think you might be referring to from the TDU website.
First off, I have a problem with TDU and this issue is one good example. "11 year Pension Freeze!" How about a 6 year freeze "MAYBE!" This is another example of TDU exploiting the facts for it's own purposes and I'm sick of that. Yeah I know the company does it too but that crap needs to stop on both sides and why can't we be the ones to take the first step and clean up our backyard. Then when the company does it, call them on it. If we start being truthful with one another maybe a level of trust can be built that will only benefit all in the long run. Sad part, IMHO, elements on both sides really don't won't this.
Also pointing to a memorandum without breaking it down and covering the Western Conference layout is very weak. The way I read the memorandum the Western Conference appears to be in good financial shape with a solid future and UPS and the Teamsters have agreed to make Central States the same. I will also fully admit I know nothing about the Western Conference so TDU's concerns could be valid. As for UPS or any other employer wanting these funds to be fully funded with the ability to fund and build for the future themselves without any further contributions I see nothing wrong with that. IMO, that's a good thing for both sides. If UPS has a way to fully fund a plan, that can grow above inflation and can adjust itself for future needs and still provide us with a good retirement, then IMHO we should sit still and listen to what they have to say. This is a company who has taken a service and is transforming it into a commodity and is very profitable at it so I for one would be interested in what they have to say.
mac
OK I found what I think you might be referring to from the TDU website.
First off, I have a problem with TDU and this issue is one good example. "11 year Pension Freeze!" How about a 6 year freeze "MAYBE!" This is another example of TDU exploiting the facts for it's own purposes and I'm sick of that. Yeah I know the company does it too but that crap needs to stop on both sides and why can't we be the ones to take the first step and clean up our backyard. Then when the company does it, call them on it. If we start being truthful with one another maybe a level of trust can be built that will only benefit all in the long run. Sad part, IMHO, elements on both sides really don't won't this.
Also pointing to a memorandum without breaking it down and covering the Western Conference layout is very weak. The way I read the memorandum the Western Conference appears to be in good financial shape with a solid future and UPS and the Teamsters have agreed to make Central States the same. I will also fully admit I know nothing about the Western Conference so TDU's concerns could be valid. As for UPS or any other employer wanting these funds to be fully funded with the ability to fund and build for the future themselves without any further contributions I see nothing wrong with that. IMO, that's a good thing for both sides. If UPS has a way to fully fund a plan, that can grow above inflation and can adjust itself for future needs and still provide us with a good retirement, then IMHO we should sit still and listen to what they have to say. This is a company who has taken a service and is transforming it into a commodity and is very profitable at it so I for one would be interested in what they have to say.
mac
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feedrman73
Guest
WKMAC I have been trying to find some bylaw or what formula the western pension goes by. I have not found it. However, I have been told that it involves a complicated formula that prior to any raises the funding must be sufficient to cover all employees present, and potential future employees when expected growth of the work force is calculated. This counts each and every employee as if they all worked to full retirement, no one dies, no one quits, no one retires early or is disabled. This is obviously a strict policy. A pension fund is considered very healty if funded above 80% Central States is in the high 80% range. It does seem odd that the Union would sign an agreement to put pressure on the fund trustees to follow these new guidlines. My opinion is the effect would be to grow hugh surpluses in the funds allowing for vast improvments at the next contract without additional contributions. Therefore they have contributed to easing the next contract negotiations already. This of course is at the expense of anyone retiring prior to 2008. I have already decided that because of this I will work the extra years. If we had gotten a raise in pension I would have left next year at 30. However my main concern before and after negotiations is the transfering of jobs to UPS logistics. No one and I mean no one I have talked to understands the seriousness this poses to all drivers at UPS. I had a good friend I used to work with parttime many years ago. He was a Division Manager who was transferred to UPS logistics. He recently retired and told me his thoughts. He agrees that in regards to the long range goals of UPS, they would love to eliminate most of the Feeder jobs nationwide.
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ja7618
Guest
eddie, I too have 2 children and I can say I made it to just about every school function that I needed to be at. They both were very involved in sports, school honor club,went to 14 years of open houses. I have 23 yrs. in as a driver and have never been forced to work more than I wanted, and I've had dozens of different managers. But I don't complain, I am paid well to do a job and I do it. I too have a 4 year degree and some day maybe I will put it use. But for now I love what I do. Just wish the weather would cool off, that's biggest problem. I wasn't trying to be rude or ugly, just don't like to hear constant complaining.
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feedrman73
Guest
ja7618 How do get to so many functions. In checking my wife's average clock out time for the last two weeks it was 8:06 p.m. She has begged to get off earlier. I dont know who your bosses are but they sure don't work in my center
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lr1937
Guest
feederman
Getting off at 806 means that her dispatch, if she were doing the job and starts between 8 & 9 am, means she would have around a 10.5 dispatch which is possible but not very likely. If it is a 10.5 dispatch why not bid a metro area with an 8.5 dispatch if her time off is so important? There are low dispatch high density areas in most centers that are easy to get if you bid on them. I do think if you want off early it can be done and I don't think the center manager should get all the bad press. There are two sides to every story.
Getting off at 806 means that her dispatch, if she were doing the job and starts between 8 & 9 am, means she would have around a 10.5 dispatch which is possible but not very likely. If it is a 10.5 dispatch why not bid a metro area with an 8.5 dispatch if her time off is so important? There are low dispatch high density areas in most centers that are easy to get if you bid on them. I do think if you want off early it can be done and I don't think the center manager should get all the bad press. There are two sides to every story.
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ok2bclever
Guest
ja7618,
I have been with the company for 30 years this month counting my part time (which the company does not count for retirement unfortunately, but that's an entirely different issue) and management is far from all monsters, but I am sorry, but that you have been working for UPS for 23 years and have never been forced to work more overtime than you wanted is simply unbelievable. Let alone that you are able to make virtually all of your kids school and sports activities. I would not believe any driver could go a month, definately not a year without being forced to work overtime that was not wanted unless you are one of those overtime hogs that can't get enough and then you certainly are not making it to your kid's activities.
I have been with the company for 30 years this month counting my part time (which the company does not count for retirement unfortunately, but that's an entirely different issue) and management is far from all monsters, but I am sorry, but that you have been working for UPS for 23 years and have never been forced to work more overtime than you wanted is simply unbelievable. Let alone that you are able to make virtually all of your kids school and sports activities. I would not believe any driver could go a month, definately not a year without being forced to work overtime that was not wanted unless you are one of those overtime hogs that can't get enough and then you certainly are not making it to your kid's activities.
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deliver_man
Guest
Getting off at 806 means that her dispatch, if she were doing the job and starts between 8 & 9 am, means she would have around a 10.5 dispatch which is possible but not very likely.
You are assuming that her route has a fair time study. In my center we have routes that routinely run 2-3 hours over every day, and when the drivers get ridden with they are found to be doing everything by the book. I was on a route like that a few years ago, and in the space of 8 months I had 3 day OJS's by a driver supervisor, a center manager, and a division manager. All I got was praise for doing a good job. On day 3 with the division manger on the car (the 3rd OJS), I was told by the DM herself that my methods were darn near perfect, and that I was one of the smoothest drivers she had ridden with. The next day the operations report showed me running 227 clicks over allowed (2 hours and 15 minutes). Subsequent to that ride, the harrasment ceased, but they never did anything about the time study. I worked til 730 or 800 pm most nights for the year I was on that route. The route I am on now is about an hour over, but I usually skip half my lunch to get in by 6pm and run about 50 clicks over. The moral of this story? Don't assume that feedrman73's wife's daily workload is the result of fair dispatch. The time studys in a lot of centers are god-awful, and on a lot of routes an 8.5 planned day is more like a 10.5 actual day.
You are assuming that her route has a fair time study. In my center we have routes that routinely run 2-3 hours over every day, and when the drivers get ridden with they are found to be doing everything by the book. I was on a route like that a few years ago, and in the space of 8 months I had 3 day OJS's by a driver supervisor, a center manager, and a division manager. All I got was praise for doing a good job. On day 3 with the division manger on the car (the 3rd OJS), I was told by the DM herself that my methods were darn near perfect, and that I was one of the smoothest drivers she had ridden with. The next day the operations report showed me running 227 clicks over allowed (2 hours and 15 minutes). Subsequent to that ride, the harrasment ceased, but they never did anything about the time study. I worked til 730 or 800 pm most nights for the year I was on that route. The route I am on now is about an hour over, but I usually skip half my lunch to get in by 6pm and run about 50 clicks over. The moral of this story? Don't assume that feedrman73's wife's daily workload is the result of fair dispatch. The time studys in a lot of centers are god-awful, and on a lot of routes an 8.5 planned day is more like a 10.5 actual day.
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feedrman73
Guest
Deliver man I could not have said it better. She averages around an .75 to 1.0 hours over a day. After she filed her first 9.5 grievance that was their argument at the local. She demanded a ride and they gave her a 3 day ojs. She had a sup two days and sup and manager 1 day. Her over went up to 1.2 hours average for the 3 days. The only place either could find a way for her to save time was to skip her lunch so that she would not have to break off to make her pickups before they closed! Needless to say they dropped the bad driver routine. Every time she files a 9.5 they let up for a week or two then simply pile it back on. They can do this with impunity because the contract has no punitive damage allowed for in the contract. The new language is almost as bad. Management is always asking why the last driver was able to scratch it if she can't so she asked her. When she went to the old driver to see how she was able to scratch the route on a continuous basis she said " yea that routes tough to scratch It used to scratch if I ran around 12 stops an hour but now it takes 14 I could never figure that out, so I just skipped my lunch everday and If you DR all the apartments you should be okay." This is the main reason I don't think any driver should ever skip one minute of their lunch unless it is a personal emergency. Management simply raises what it takes to scratch it and will hold it against any driver in the future. I am constantly amazed how drivers will perform a firable offence in order to scratch a route. When my wife pointed it out that she could be fired for DRing in apartments she replyed "they would not do that I run a good schedule."
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wkmac
Guest
Thanks for the info feederman73. Had the pension gone up I was thinking serious of leaving in 2006' but will probably wait now till 2011'. That strict formula may be the best way because it insures the needed funds are there but we also have to remember with the stock market down like it is I'm sure pressure is on all the funds to operate in a positive manner.
As for logistics, I can understand your concern. My experience of what I've seen is UPS is using logistics drivers to zone skip and pull direct to regional hubs where the packages are sorted out to the destination centers. One thing I think the union and feeder drivers need to do is sit down and work out a plan that gives the company the ability to do things like zone skip, that protects current and future feeder work and is as or more cost effective than using non union logistics drivers. I do believe this will require more sleeper teams and more mileage runs and from what I've heard from both sides, everyone loves the mileage runs. On the positive side here, I understand that 10k of those 20k jobs called for in the new contract are on the logistics side so maybe some of those drivers might become unionized before 2008'. Time will tell.
The one area I'd be concerned with is the railroad because the price to rail a pig verses pulling over the road is a no brainer for the company from the prices I've seen. I'd do it too if I were them. If the rail can ever meet or beat the issue of time-n-transit to equal UPS over the road feeders then IMO even logistic's drivers will be out of a job. Good luck and drive safely. JMO.
As for logistics, I can understand your concern. My experience of what I've seen is UPS is using logistics drivers to zone skip and pull direct to regional hubs where the packages are sorted out to the destination centers. One thing I think the union and feeder drivers need to do is sit down and work out a plan that gives the company the ability to do things like zone skip, that protects current and future feeder work and is as or more cost effective than using non union logistics drivers. I do believe this will require more sleeper teams and more mileage runs and from what I've heard from both sides, everyone loves the mileage runs. On the positive side here, I understand that 10k of those 20k jobs called for in the new contract are on the logistics side so maybe some of those drivers might become unionized before 2008'. Time will tell.
The one area I'd be concerned with is the railroad because the price to rail a pig verses pulling over the road is a no brainer for the company from the prices I've seen. I'd do it too if I were them. If the rail can ever meet or beat the issue of time-n-transit to equal UPS over the road feeders then IMO even logistic's drivers will be out of a job. Good luck and drive safely. JMO.
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ok2bclever
Guest
Number one full time issue was pension improvement.
With the copay increase we have lost ground. I see both local 710 and 705 who negotiate seperate from the national have gotten significant improvements in their pension benefits as well as superior full time job increases.
With the copay increase we have lost ground. I see both local 710 and 705 who negotiate seperate from the national have gotten significant improvements in their pension benefits as well as superior full time job increases.
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tieguy
Guest
Lets see..no raises for management so the company can pay for this bloated goat. I'll definitely be voting no ...
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feederdryver
Guest
Feedrman73- and all Union members...
I believe this is the beginning of the end of the Feeder Dept..and Hoffa doesn't give a damn or he just doesn't realize what he did by allowing hall to put that stinkin Memorandum of Understanding in the back of the new contract, that allows UPS to use independent tractor trailer drivers to move volume. And Article 1 cannot protect us since they will be using THEIR OWN equipment. What a great way for UPS to compete with FedEx Ground right??? !! Didn't you also notice that the the language allowing Feeder drivers to bump into packages during layoffs has been eliminated? At least in the Central Region it has ! Now you have to have been qualified in Packages (or any other full time job) and doing that work for the past 18 months in order to bump into that particular Dept.. or you can go to another Hub or Center within your Local and bump the junior guy there..and if "YOU" are the junior guy in Feeders/TDP of your Local..then you have to go to the HUB or Center and displace 2 part timers. AND..you have to do their work for 30 days in a 90 day period in order to "finally" bump into any other full time position such as Packages or whatever... But the company will not let that happen..Why? Because this is why...The company can recall you at "ANY" time to come back into Feeders/TDP for a day or two, unlike the way it used to be, when it was on a "week to week" basis. So in other words, they can recall you on your 29th day and your basically screwed.. cuz when they lay you back off the following Monday, you have to start your 30 in a 90 all over again !! And they will do this every single time.. So forget seniority ..it don't mean jack for Feeder/'TDP drivers this time around!!! Basically, UPS wants to elimate the whole Feeder Dept (TDP will still keep the top seniority drivers from Feeders) and not upset their customers with all the "new" package car drivers that would come from Feeders. (Lots of new paerwork for management here folks!) It's a "divide and conquer technique" and we are falling for it !! Look at how much volume they have put on the rail already? Everyday I can count hundreds of UPS trailers going by on the railroad that is right behind my house (yes they are loads, not emptys)..it makes me sick. Wait until UPS Logistics starts hiring those independent contractors to haul our volume in their trailers !! What good is the wage increase when we (Feeder drivers) won't even have jobs in the next 6 years. I wouldn't even want the damn raise if we can just get them to take out that new Memorandum of Understanding..How could Hoffa and Hall screw us like this?? Now I know the real reason why Lichtenwald was taken off the negotiating committee.. he was actually trying to get loads off the rail and that interferred with Hoffa and the companys secret agreement. Please Vote NO..or say goodbye to the Feeder Dept. in the near future... This isn't just my personal opinion but also everyone's that I have talked to in North Ohio's Hubs and Centers.. Oh, and when people say "well the contract says we can organize UPS Logistics" you tell them right away.."yeah anybody can organize a bunch of clerks on the phones and at their computers all day", but the brokers they hire will NOT be UPS Logistics. Have I expressed this point enough?? I don't think so. 15 years at UPS working from part-time on up..what a waste. "Then leave !!" some of you will say?..heh..maybe I will.. Guess I should of became a package car driver when I had the chance..huh? LET'S ALL BE A TEAM..PLEASE VOTE NO..THE COMPANY WILL ALLOW THE CHANGES TO PROTECT THE FEEDER JOBS RATHER THAN US STRIKING THEM..WE JUST NEED TO "BAND TOGETHER AND STAND TOGETHER" ON THIS. Think about it..think about how much sense it makes of what I said...
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tieguy
Guest
I don't know what it is with feeder drivers. Most work around 55 hours a week at top rate and worry that the company is out to take their jobs. Meanwhile while they worry they just keep raking in more and more money in each contract. Look at the sleeper runs put in last time. Someone on a sleeper run makes what about 1500 to 1700 a week?
