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[wkmac]

muncher,
You are correct in some of the things you say but I also think you don't see the big picture either. And the reason that is the case is lack of time in this situation. Many of us including myself have been at UPS and have been Teamsters for 20 plus years. For those many years all we've heard is "the company will screw you and we (the Teamsters) never will!" Now I might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I'm not the dullest either so I never bought that nonsense. I know both sides can make decisons not in the best interest of me but that is life. I know the risks and I accept them.

There is a lot of history and details you just aren't aware of because you just haven't been around long enough. Time will change that but for now it's a fact. Had you been there the whole time I'm not saying your opinion would totally change but I do know your perspective would be much different and I'd bet your attitude in this would be different as well. The fact is as the last several weeks have gone by and I've had more time to digest this situation and I can actually live with it. I have no problem with the $20 co-pay and the 25% co-pay for drugs because medical costs have gone up a lot over the years. My biggest problem in this whole deal was not the reduction in the retirement but rather for the union officials and some union members to sit there (and they still do it) and say that UPS will rip your heart out and we (the Teamsters) are the only place you can go and always be protected and taken care of. The good news in this whole situation is that even a lot of hardcore types are starting to wake up to reality so in this sense I think the current situation is wonderful and a Godsend.

 

[proups]

Wish we could rewind to 1997 and do the right thing....give UPS control of the plan.....

 

[wkmac]

oldupsman,
Thanks for all the info and your post goes to the heart of what I've said about getting all the facts. For example, as you brought out, there are UPS Teamsters already covered by a UPS plan and it sounds like a good one from what you say. And I'll bet this plan was all set out at the bargaining table just as any of the rest of us could have as well.

It just goes to show folks, we don't have all the facts and we need that more than anything else. If one plan can give UPS Teamsters a good solid retirement then it is time those of us under the CS plan demand those type of results. We may have to eat the damage now but going forward the managing of our retirement should be done in an honest and business like manner whether with CS, UPS or whoever and IMO I believe this is what UPS is really upset about. Again, time may prove me wrong but I still believe UPS may be our biggest ally in this thing at the end of the day. Thanks again oldupsman for the details and it was much appreciated.

This Bud's for you!

One last thing oldupsman, you said you were from the Northeast. What plan are you with? We might need to point this out to our local officials so maybe the CS trustees can do what your guys did and get us back on track. If you don't want to post publically just click on my alias and email me in private. It would be most appreciated.

(Message edited by wkmac on December 06, 2003)

 

[jeepguy]

Let me just do some math here and not make any comments pro or con. This is simple math - I'll give you the formula so you can put it into Excel and let your computer tell you the facts

In cell a1 put 166 (UPS's week contribution)
in cell b1 put 52 (weeks in a year)
in cell c1 put 25 (years you would like to work)
in cell d1 put 6% (very conservative interest rate to earn on your weekly contributions)
in cell e1, type this formula =FV(D1/B1,B1*C1,A1)

in cell e3 put 5%
in cell e4 put 12
in cell e5 put 20
in cell e6 type this formula =PMT(E3/E4,E4*E5,E1)

This calculation shows a weekly investment of 166, invested at 6% for 25 years would grow to over $500,000. The second calculation shows how much you could withdraw on a monthly basis for 20 years while earning 5% on the investment(3302 per month.)

 

[jeepguy]

Additional info on the calculation I posted here. If you tweek cell d1, the interest rate, you can see the impact of better earnings on the weekly investment. UPS stock, over time grows at over 12%.
If the weekly investment were in UPS stock for 25 years, the end value would be $1.37 million which would allow a monthly check of $9,000 for 20 years!

 

[delivryman24]

Here's my 2cents in summing this whole situation up. A buddy of mine sent me these figures.(All it takes is a calculator to figure this one out).

Ups gives each Full-Time driver $166.00 per week! That's $8632.00 per year,
$86,320 in 10 years, $172,640 in 20 years and $258,960 in 30 years! That's
just money with no intrest!

I'm sure the $166 is put partly into pension funds and partly into insurance funds. $258,960 is a lot of money PER EMPLOYEE(FULL TIMER). All most of us are wanting to see is that this money go to UPSer's only and not put into a fund that gets spread out. It doesn't mean that UPS has to administer it.
If you guys were giving your banker this much money to invest and all of a sudden money starts disappearing or you start losing money daily, what are you going to do? Anyone in their right mind would FIRE your banker.
We are seeing that OUR money has been mismanaged, and that is all we are saying. WE WANT OUR BANKER FIRED!

 

[oldupsman]

Mac,
It's official title is Teamster Pension Trust Fund of Philadelphia and Vicinity. The address is 4th and Cherry street in Philadelphia. It includes Locals 624, 107, and 384.
Now for those of you who think fighting this fight is a lost cause let me tell you this story. This is how are pension was improved. In 1987 this issue came to a head in our area. People put up 25.00 a head to hire professional money managers from Prudential. A meeting was held in Phila. on a Sun. morning in the hall of the local Steelworkers. The place was SRO. And this hall held 500 people. The money managers sat up on the stage with the Teamster officials and tore the Teamster plan to shreds. Basically telling us how the Teamsters were poor investors. And they could do so much better. When it came time for the Teamster pension officials to speak they tried to simpley scare and bully us by saying, "Well if you guys don't like it you can just leave the Teamsters." Now remember this was 1987. Leaving the union just wasn't done. Well the crowd just roared. Sure, no problem, where do we sign. I'll never forget the look on their faces. They just sat there totally stunned. They very quickly changed their tune. Okay we'll fix it. At that time my monthly benefit was 29.00 per year worked. They created a formula that increased the pension based on whatever raises we recived in the contract. Every year since then my monthly benefit has increased. Today my monthly bebefit is 220.00 per year worked.
Make your voices heard folks. The big advantage you have today is UPS is very much intrested in whats going on. And it's become a national issue. IMHO something is going to give. Things can't continue the way they are.

 

[ups79]

delvryman: the only thing about your fiqures that you fail to mention is that 10, 20, or 30 years ago they were not contributing $166.00 per week. I don't know what fiqure they were contributing but you as well as I know it was not $166.00. I am sure 30 years from now they will be adding a larger number than $166.00, but with the cost of living increases in 30 years what will that buy.

 

[delivryman24]

ups79, I do realize that the $166 figure has not been given for the last 30 years. But that wasn't my point. My point was that our money is being MISMANAGED!!!!

 

[yankswinagain]

Full disclosure here - I am a UPS Management employee....

I want to make sure I understand the issue with a multi-employer type Plan.

1. Do all companies fund the plans at the same rates per employee or does it vary based on the company?

2. Are all the benefits the same for all participants regardless of the company they worked for?

Forgive my ignorance here, but I just assumed that a Central States type plan was easy way to set up a larger Pension fund that had greater power to "negotiate" investments since it has more money (multiple companies combined).

Thanks in advance for any info....

 

[pretender]

I have wondered the same thing--It's amazing how much I don't know...

 

[archibald]

I will have 20 years in april, 8 part time, 12 full. I will say just this, unlike fedex, UPS is not ass deep in debt. I have lost confidence in teamsters and have no hope of a pension. The next contract if UPS seeks to get into the pension and benefits like 97 I will be more open minded. In the mean time I am lookin elsewear for other employment or possibly UPS managment. Sorry but I have to look out for number one. I wish it were different but I think teamsters has let us down. That is my thoughts.

 

[my2cents]

Good question yankswinagain. As far as I can tell, the rates vary from company to company. In the New England Fund, UPS contributed $4.21 per hour in 2001 and $4.31 per hour in 2002. According to my Acturarial Valuation Report, which I received from the Fund, The "average current contribution rate" for 2001 was $3.57 and $3.71 for 2002. There is also an "average ultimate contribution rate" figure, which was $3.74 in 2001 and $4.09 in 2002. I believe this figure is based on each member working 1930 hours per year. The only sure way to answer the contribution question would be to check each collective bargaining agreement under the Fund to see how much each different employer is remitting per hour.

In regards to your second question, there are various plan schedules. If you want to check out the schedules for the New England Fund, it is available here.

 

[wkmac]

Thanks oldupsman for the info. I hope many of us here will avail themselves of this data in order to become better educated and equipped to secure our futures not only to benefits ourselves but also UPS as well.

As for possible scenarios of returns I just plugged in the following to a Quicken Financial planner calculator and this is what I got.

I did modify the current situation a little only to show what an FT. employee working together with UPS can do. In other words, both parties contribute. Here's the details I used.

1) UPS contributed $7800 annually or $150 per week
2) Employee contributed $5200 annually or $100 per week
3) Total UPS/Employee combined $13k annually in the first year
4) Contributions were adjusted upwards annually for both parties for inflation at a 1% annual rate
5) Annual Earnings Yield is 6%
6) Start Age of example employee is 25
7) Retirement Age is 55 with a total of 30 years service
8) Total years retirement income is drawn is 45 till employee is age 100


Based on a 15% Income Tax retirement rate (does not include state if any apply) the after tax annual retirement income is $51,699.93 or $4308.32 per month.

I know this is a rough example with a lot of other factors involved just like the other examples shown but we seriously need to explore many other options out there other than the current method we are involved in which we see firsthand has many pitfalls as well. The above could fit into a 401k type of scenario where it is even possible for the employee to add more for a greater payout at retirement or pay high premiums early and cut back later in one's career. I also know the 401k has a 59 1/2 year old draw point but I'd rather deal with that prohibition than the one we currently have. 401k's also have no work restrictions so that's another added benefit. Again, not saying this is the perfect solution but let's just throw everything out on the table for once and see what does and doesn't work. In light of the recent CS events this is a needed and healthy discussion IMO.

Let me also say this to the many management folks here. I appreciate the fact none of you guys have jumped on here and gloated in light of these events and as they relate to the strike of 97'. You have every right to gloat and say "I told you so!" but you haven't. It's to easy and quick to sling the term "management" around when being critical just as the term "Teamster" sees it's share of abuse. I just want to say the amount of reserve I've seen by you guys here IMO speaks of the real calibur of you guys. We may have our little petty sqawibles from time to time but with the chips down now for many of us I see you reserved actions and deeply appreciate them. It shows me there's more grounds for trust and working together than we realize and if we can ever conquer that hill, we'll truly be an unstoppable force IMO. Thanks guys.

 

[robonono]

Wkmac,

Again, as a 10-year retired division manager, I appreciate your positive comment about the lack of management "I Told You So".

 

[sendagain6160]

Had meeting in Little Rock yesterday and just as told before.....so sorry, thats the way it is.Drivers left there confused and angry.Merry Christmas folks.

 

[wkmac]

Local 728 in Atlanta is having their meeting this Saturday(12/13) and if the folks who are saying actually show up the attendance will be huge. Also got a notice that CS representatives will be at Local 728 on 01/16 and 01/17/04 for questions as it relates to CS. Can't decide if they're brave or stupid! LOL!

 

[pretender]

wkmac: Regarding your scenario of returns that you posted below--A bonus would be the fact that, if you were to die, the money would pass on to your beneficiary. As I am sure you know, with the teamster pension, you have to either take a reduced benefit, or have none of your money pass on...As far as not being able to withdraw your 401K money until 59 1/2--I very well could be wrong; but I always thought that if you set up the withdrawals as equal monthly payments, such as an annuity, you could avoid any penalties. Does anyone know if this is true?

 

[brownmonster]

I believe if you retire or seperate from the employer you can start collecting at 55 penalty free. That is my hope and plan. BM

 

[wkmac]

pretender,
Yes I knew about the funds going to your heirs but thanks for bringing up that point. I forgot about that and that is an excellent point to make. I've heard there is some kind of formula that allows for withdrawals at 55 but I've no clue as to how that works.

Anybody here have firsthand details about the elections at Local 705? Was the winning slate a TDU type slate, Pro-Hoffa or a group of independent folks who banned together? Just interested if anyone has any details. Thanks.